Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #184

[sunshineray]

What? Can you show me where Abbott is mentioned in the documents of this scary case?
Which document and on what page will suffice. TIA

The D's last filing

 

[Willow Knight]

The D's last filing

Can imagine how the prosecution feels about now.

Yes, I sent it on (date)
Page (pg #)
Line (line #)

 

[FrostedGlass]

@DeDee here's the Abbott mention:
19.On February 17, 2017, documents specifically sought by the defense (Doug
Carter’s emails with the FBI) provided evidence that:
a. Brad Holder was a suspect within days of the murder and certainly
on February 17, 2017 when Holder interviewed at the Delphi police
station and turned over his phone to law enforcement.
b. State Police Superintendent Doug Carter was aware that Brad
Holder was a suspect.
c. Even the top FBI agent in Indianapolis, Jay Abbott, was aware that
Brad Holder was a suspect on February 17, 2017.
d. Logan Holder was not mentioned as a suspect in these emails.

Dismiss.pdf.pdf

drive.google.com

Judge Gull's order

04/02/2024

Order Issued The Court, having had Defendant's Motion to Dismiss for Destroying Exculpatory Evidence under advisement following a hearing conducted on March 18, 2024, now denies the Motion to Dismiss as the defendant has failed to show that the evidence was exculpatory and that it was destroyed negligently, intentionally, or in bad faith. The recordings of interviews between February 14-20, 2017 were lost due to human error or were spontaneously lost due to the equipment resetting. At the time the interview of Brad Holder was lost, he was not a key suspect in the case. The interview was memorialized in a written report provided to the defendant. Patrick Westfall was interviewed at his home by FBI agents. That interview was not recorded but was documented in a written report provided to the defendant. Patrick Westfall was not a key suspect in the case at the time of the interview. As neither Holder nor Westfall were suspects at the time the interviews were conducted, the defendant has failed to show that the lost interview of Holder was material and that the lack of a recorded interview of Westfall was material. As defendant must establish materiality to claim a denial of due process and Allen had failed to do so, his due process rights have not been violated. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ

 

[EOA]

He said he was on platform 1 at the time she saw him.

No RA didn’t actually say that. He didn’t mention the “first platform” part in the DD early interview. When RA did acknowledge going out to the first platform, he did not state a particular time, and in fact it was in the same Oct’22 interview which he claimed to only be at the trails from approximately noon to 1:30. Via multiple timestamps BB’s observation had to have occurred around1 1:53 to 1:56 but RA never stated anything within that timeframe (tho I’m not stating it couldn’t have happened at that time)

 

[DeDee]

@DeDee here's the Abbott mention:
19.On February 17, 2017, documents specifically sought by the defense (Doug
Carter’s emails with the FBI) provided evidence that:
a. Brad Holder was a suspect within days of the murder and certainly
on February 17, 2017 when Holder interviewed at the Delphi police
station and turned over his phone to law enforcement.
b. State Police Superintendent Doug Carter was aware that Brad
Holder was a suspect.
c. Even the top FBI agent in Indianapolis, Jay Abbott, was aware that
Brad Holder was a suspect on February 17, 2017.
d. Logan Holder was not mentioned as a suspect in these emails.

Dismiss.pdf.pdf

drive.google.com

Judge Gull's order

04/02/2024

Order Issued The Court, having had Defendant's Motion to Dismiss for Destroying Exculpatory Evidence under advisement following a hearing conducted on March 18, 2024, now denies the Motion to Dismiss as the defendant has failed to show that the evidence was exculpatory and that it was destroyed negligently, intentionally, or in bad faith. The recordings of interviews between February 14-20, 2017 were lost due to human error or were spontaneously lost due to the equipment resetting. At the time the interview of Brad Holder was lost, he was not a key suspect in the case. The interview was memorialized in a written report provided to the defendant. Patrick Westfall was interviewed at his home by FBI agents. That interview was not recorded but was documented in a written report provided to the defendant. Patrick Westfall was not a key suspect in the case at the time of the interview. As neither Holder nor Westfall were suspects at the time the interviews were conducted, the defendant has failed to show that the lost interview of Holder was material and that the lack of a recorded interview of Westfall was material. As defendant must establish materiality to claim a denial of due process and Allen had failed to do so, his due process rights have not been violated. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ

Thank you so much, Frosted Glass. You are so good with handling the court documents for us.

I don't know that the two C & J Abbott are related but it'd be nice if we used a first initial when discussing one of the other since CA is mentioned as being a witness and perhaps assisted with drawing a sketch of BG. MOO

I had the chance to read the Second Motion to Dismiss Based Upon Newly Discovered Exculpatory ... Evidence filed May 20, 2024. Although I've not had a chance to catch up on reading the thread, I'll just ask these questions because my mind's blown by this information. I'd always thought AW casually met LH at a basketball game.

Why did Abby go to PW's home? BH stated that is where he met AW. It made me weep to learn this fact. She was only 13yo at TOD. Did PW live in Rushville, Flora or Delphi at the time? If it wasn't in Delphi, who took her out of town so BH could meet AW at PW's?

When Holeman is asked by the D during the May 3rd depositions about BH's phone extraction, he suggests for them to "ask the FBI what they did..." [16. pg 3]. Is he referring to FBI Task Officer Greg Ferency?

MOO
Motion to Dismiss.pdf

 

[steeltowngirl]

If Abby had met BH and/or PW and one of them was BG, she’d have recognized him on the bridge.

jmo

 

[susiQ]

Thank you so much, Frosted Glass. You are so good with handling the court documents for us.

I don't know that the two C & J Abbott are related but it'd be nice if we used a first initial when discussing one of the other since CA is mentioned as being a witness and perhaps assisted with drawing a sketch of BG. MOO

I had the chance to read the Second Motion to Dismiss Based Upon Newly Discovered Exculpatory ... Evidence filed May 20, 2024. Although I've not had a chance to catch up on reading the thread, I'll just ask these questions because my mind's blown by this information. I'd always thought AW casually met LH at a basketball game.

Why did Abby go to PW's home? BH stated that is where he met AW. It made me weep to learn this fact. She was only 13yo at TOD. Did PW live in Rushville, Flora or Delphi at the time? If it wasn't in Delphi, who took her out of town so BH could meet AW at PW's?

When Holeman is asked by the D during the May 3rd depositions about BH's phone extraction, he suggests for them to "ask the FBI what they did..." [16. pg 3]. Is he referring to FBI Task Officer Greg Ferency?

MOO
Motion to Dismiss.pdf

I believe PW lived in Delphi, not far from Deer Creek at that time. It was BH that would travel to Delphi for these “gatherings” iirc.

 

[snooptroop88]

If Abby had met BH and/or PW and one of them was BG, she’d have recognized him on the bridge.

jmo

How would we know she didn't, though? Maybe he had his face disguised more for potential witnesses. Or maybe he really was so well disguised they couldn't tell. I don't believe it's BH, but out of all the voice samples I created for myself, this one was the closest other than RA. I still don't think it's BH though. And he's not charged, and even if he were, he's innocent till proven guilty. Delphi was undoubtedly a very small world, lots of lives intersected. I know people say RA was the unluckiest guy around, but these other guys are pretty unlucky, too, in that they've been targeted by the D to "shift focus." If D had real, substantive evidence against them, I'd sit up and listen, but D's just making unsubstantiated accusations, and that's the same thing they're screaming at the top of their lungs about with RA right now. I'm never going back into the Franks again for anything, not Vol 1, 2, 3 or 4. (Did I get them all?) If D can back it up, back it up. But they can't, and they've got a trial coming up where they have to deflect, weaken, and otherwise counter good evidence against their own client.

 

[susiQ]

How would we know she didn't, though? Maybe he had his face disguised more for potential witnesses. Or maybe he really was so well disguised they couldn't tell. I don't believe it's BH, but out of all the voice samples I created for myself, this one was the closest other than RA. I still don't think it's BH though. And he's not charged, and even if he were, he's innocent till proven guilty. Delphi was undoubtedly a very small world, lots of lives intersected. I know people say RA was the unluckiest guy around, but these other guys are pretty unlucky, too, in that they've been targeted by the D to "shift focus." If D had real, substantive evidence against them, I'd sit up and listen, but D's just making unsubstantiated accusations, and that's the same thing they're screaming at the top of their lungs about with RA right now. I'm never going back into the Franks again for anything, not Vol 1, 2, 3 or 4. (Did I get them all?) If D can back it up, back it up. But they can't, and they've got a trial coming up where they have to deflect, weaken, and otherwise counter good evidence against their own client.

I must respectfully disagree. BH has not been “targeted by the D to shift focus.” BH was in fact a suspect from the getgo but LE “shifted” focus away from him. All the D is doing is shining a light on the discovery provided by the State, albeit in a very untimely fashion. Nay sayers can jump up and down and disparaged the D all they want. The truth is in the discovery and unfortunately also buried by lost interviews and misrepresentation of the facts by LE and the State.

This whole so-called investigation stinks. What’s worse is that the Judge is undeniably biased in favour of the State, preventing RA from getting a fair trial. Hopefully, she will have the decency to recuse. She’s no longer effective in her role. She has lost credibility with the people.

All MOO.

 

[DeDee]

Sorry. I cannot accept the “they are doing what they are hired to do” argument. It is not OK to look the other way.
Every single day defense attorneys across the country defend people accused of heinous crimes. Some are guilty and some are not. Their attorneys vigorously argue on their behalf no matter which. They behave professionally and treat everyone with respect.
They do not ignore gag orders, file motions with the intent of poisoning the jury pool with twisted versions of the truth, repeatedly, attempting to tar and feather an esteemed judge to delay the trial, ignoring the dozens of confessions their client has made, ignoring the discovery so they can ask for a continuance at the last minute claiming they haven’t had enough time to look at it, on and on.
It is endless and it is not OK to look the other way and make excuses for their bad hurtful behavior. We all want RA to be given a fair trial, and I know some will agree to that but claim Libby and Abby are not guaranteed a fair trial. Legally that may be true, but there is nothing that says they don’t deserve respect and compassion by the defense team. It’s a choice this defense team has made to treat them like dirt. And that is not OK.
I have no problem with people thinking RA is innocent or being on the fence. I’m way past arguing supposed evidence. I’m not interested in changing people’s minds at this point. Defending these attorney’s behavior though, is beyond me.
My opinion.

Almost all of the things you're saying about the Defense has been happening for years in the Karen Read trial so these issues are not unique to this case or to our legal justice system. As a third person defense, KR's attorney announced in open court the three people who they hope to pin the death of the Police Officer John O'Keefe. It's the classic SODDI defense. Ironically, almost everyone's posting in favor of the D on the thread.

Those 3 people, plus their families and others, have been consistently harassed to a much higher degree than what we've seen the accused Odins or Asatrus in Abby and Libby's case. I think it can ruin the lives of innocent people but that's how our Justice system in America works.

Further, imho, denying a possible method in which these precious girls, Abby Williams and Libby German, were kidnapped, tortured and viciously murdered, then left displayed in those woods, would be doing the girls a grave injustice.

IMOO

 

[snooptroop88]

MOO. Third party defenses aren't always successful. The D can't just present speculation and expect it to fly. In People v Powell (NY), they note this: "The countervailing risks of delay, prejudice and confusion are particularly acute and if those concerns were not weighed against the probative value of evidence, the fact-finding process would break down under a mass speculation and conjecture, Primo, 96 NY2d at 356-357." In the Powell case where the third party was the recipient of life insurance of the murder victim, the appellate court upheld the trial's court decision to exclude this evidence: "On defendant’s appeal, the Appellate Division affirmed, holding that the trial court properly precluded defendant from presenting evidence of third-party culpability since the proposed evidence was based on mere speculation."

In RA's case, these people were already examined by LE, they are not charged. The reason the interviews were erased may well be tied to the fact that they were not deemed to be suspects and the interviews were of little value. I wish they were still there, but I understand how it could have happened. I'm giving the P the same benefit of the doubt that I gave the D on that photo leak. But LE had already determined the interviews were of limited probative value. Some people believe otherwise, I respect that.

But the multivolume Franks set is certain to delay, prejudice, and confuse. This isn't a "diss" of anyone's views, honestly. I know some people think the Franks are the best thing they've seen in decades, but It's literally jmo. I don't think it was Odinites. Even if D actually shows it had been, that doesn't preclude RA's involvement. Seeing this for an Arizona case, still looking for Indiana case: "Concluding third-party culpability evidence was not relevant because, even if the third party was culpable, he could have acted as the defendant's accomplice and the evidence did not suggest that someone other than the defendant committed the crime." Found this link relevant specifically to Indiana: Evidence of a Third Party's Guilt of the Crime that the Accused is Charged with: The Constitutionalization of the SODDI (Some Other Dude Did It) Defense 2.0
I think it was RA. But I always listen because I don't know it was RA. And I appreciate getting to listen, whatever the outcome. I think he's guilty, though, but MOO. And if he did this, he needs to go to prison for the rest of his life. RIP Abby & Libby.

 

[susiQ]

In Ra’s case, these people were already examined by LE, they are not charged.

RSABBM
I guess this is the crux for me. Were they REALLY examined? I don’t believe so, at least not by Unified Command. In fact, it was Unified Command that prevented an in-depth investigation of these third party individuals by Click, Ferency and Murphy. An incomplete investigation is useless in the pursuit of justice. Had these actors been thoroughly investigated to begin with and ruled out, this case would be in a completely different place. But that is not what happened by a long shot. MOO

 

[Salah11]

I must respectfully disagree. BH has not been “targeted by the D to shift focus.” BH was in fact a suspect from the getgo but LE “shifted” focus away from him. All the D is doing is shining a light on the discovery provided by the State, albeit in a very untimely fashion. Nay sayers can jump up and down and disparaged the D all they want. The truth is in the discovery and unfortunately also buried by lost interviews and misrepresentation of the facts by LE and the State.

This whole so-called investigation stinks. What’s worse is that the Judge is undeniably biased in favour of the State, preventing RA from getting a fair trial. Hopefully, she will have the decency to recuse. She’s no longer effective in her role. She has lost credibility with the people.

All MOO.

Zero proof of this I’m afraid. She is highly respected from her peers I believe as well.

He was investigated and clearly found nothing on him hence the investigation shifted focus. As far as im aware that happens all the time in investigations. Trying to Frame BH won’t work and shows how desperate they are to try and shift focus away from their guilty client.

Mooooooo

 

[Salah11]

Here is a question should every single individual that LE interviewed and discarded as suspects now be subjected to being named and shamed by the defense in their quest to throw suspicion away from RA?

 

[girlhasnoname]

Here is a question should every single individual that LE interviewed and discarded as suspects now be subjected to being named and shamed by the defense in their quest to throw suspicion away from RA?

Right? They had over 50,000 tips IIRC in this case.

Rule 403. Excluding Relevant Evidence for Prejudice, Confusion, or Other Reasons

The court may exclude relevant evidence if its probative value is substantially outweighed by a danger of one or more of the following: unfair prejudice, confusing the issues, misleading the jury, undue delay, or needlessly presenting cumulative evidence.

https://law.indiana.edu/instruction/tanford/b723/05prej/R05.pdf

EBM: Corrected number of tips received

JMO

 

[steeltowngirl]

Right? They had over 7,000 tips IIRC in this case.

50,000 tips!

Indiana State Police have interviewed hundreds of people, from possible witnesses and persons of interest to anyone who may have had information about suspicious activity on the day the girls went missing. More than 50,000 tips have been called in or emailed to investigators during the past five years.

Arrest made in Delphi murders of Libby German and Abby Williams, sources say

The Indiana State Police plans to provide an update Monday on its investigation into the 2017 murders of two teenage girls, an official confirms.

www.wrtv.com

 

[girlhasnoname]

50,000 tips!

Indiana State Police have interviewed hundreds of people, from possible witnesses and persons of interest to anyone who may have had information about suspicious activity on the day the girls went missing. More than 50,000 tips have been called in or emailed to investigators during the past five years.

Arrest made in Delphi murders of Libby German and Abby Williams, sources say

The Indiana State Police plans to provide an update Monday on its investigation into the 2017 murders of two teenage girls, an official confirms.

www.wrtv.com

Wow, thanks for that STG, I'll go correct my post. Unbelievable they received so many.

 

[FrostedGlass]

50,000 tips!

Indiana State Police have interviewed hundreds of people, from possible witnesses and persons of interest to anyone who may have had information about suspicious activity on the day the girls went missing. More than 50,000 tips have been called in or emailed to investigators during the past five years.

Arrest made in Delphi murders of Libby German and Abby Williams, sources say

The Indiana State Police plans to provide an update Monday on its investigation into the 2017 murders of two teenage girls, an official confirms.

www.wrtv.com

And none of them were Richard Allen. Apparently. IMO.

 

[Megnut]

And none of them were Richard Allen. Apparently. IMO.

At least one was.

His.

 

[girlhasnoname]

At least one was.

His.

Yep, I'll say it again..RA called the tip line early bc he knew he'd been seen. He probably made an excuse as to why he couldn't come into LE offices right away (working full time shifts, but he'd be happy to meet someone close by to give his statement) and that is why DD interviewed him outside the grocery store near CVS and maybe why it wasn't recorded, just noted.

RA wouldn't want to risk going into LE offices where someone might connect him to the picture of BG.

ALL MOO