Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #187

[m00c0w]

Do you think that just because the defense hasn't brought it up in pre-trial motions they won't bring it up in the trial?

They have made on-the-record statements confirming the clothing at the scene was the clothing they wore to the scene. It will be extremely hard to walk that back now, even if they actually wanted to. However, you’re the only person I’ve seen concerned about a pair of pants “appearing” and another pair “disappearing” based on one very early description released of the girls.

It is far more likely that the description just got one pair of pants wrong versus this other theory. You assert that it not being “corrected” in over six years means something… the girls were no longer missing. They were found the next day. An accurate description of clothing was no longer relevant to the general public. There was zero rational reason to come out and say “oh, well, actually Libby was wearing jeans and not sweatpants”. I feel like there were far more important issues at hand, at that time.

Again, not even the overzealous defense has stretched nearly this far.

JMO

 

[TTF14]

Again, not even the overzealous defense has stretched nearly this far.

JMO

Overzealous? I hope if I'm ever arrested for a crime I have attorneys with half their zeal. They're fighting for their client and something stinks in Delphi.

IMO MOO

 

[sunshineray]

I absolutely do NOT think RA was carrying extra clothes.

Just wondering where they came from.

IMO MOO

Yes and I think you're mistaken that they exist.
Agree to disagree.

 

[m00c0w]

Overzealous? I hope if I'm ever arrested for a crime I have attorneys with half their zeal. They're fighting for their client and something stinks in Delphi.

IMO MOO

Something may stink, but it’s not because a relative misremembered a pair of pants.

JMO

 

[TTF14]

Something may stink, but it’s not because a relative misremembered a pair of pants.

JMO

We agree on that.

IMO MOO

 

[TTF14]

They have made on-the-record statements confirming the clothing at the scene was the clothing they wore to the scene. It will be extremely hard to walk that back now, even if they actually wanted to. However, you’re the only person I’ve seen concerned about a pair of pants “appearing” and another pair “disappearing” based on one very early description released of the girls.

It is far more likely that the description just got one pair of pants wrong versus this other theory. You assert that it not being “corrected” in over six years means something… the girls were no longer missing. They were found the next day. An accurate description of clothing was no longer relevant to the general public. There was zero rational reason to come out and say “oh, well, actually Libby was wearing jeans and not sweatpants”. I feel like there were far more important issues at hand, at that time.

Again, not even the overzealous defense has stretched nearly this far.

JMO

BBM: I'm not aware of the defense being on record saying that? Link?

 

[m00c0w]

BBM: I'm not aware of the defense being on record saying that? Link?

I pointed it out several posts ago, which you glossed over and basically ignored. It’s all in the Franks Memo.

MOO

 

[Jade]

It was what we were told for over 6 years. @CCJD posted a link as a refresher just this afternoon. Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #187

I don't know what to tell ya. It was the same story for over six years. Nobody said a word about it being wrong until the Franks memo, followed by the leaked photos, came out. * shrug *

BBM

“We” as in crime forum posters?

“We” are not told anything beyond the press conferences.

I think I see the problem leading to the overall lack of understanding by some in this case; it is not being tried for the public’s entertainment and dissection on sm by the Prosecution.

“Nobody said a word” you mean as if a gag order* is preventing them and because professional ethics for a trial to be in order for two minor girls who were grossly attacked and assaulted and deserve some privacy?

The Prosecution takes the case seriously which must be confusing if ones a D’s antics admirer.

“Story”? The Prosecution submits filings meant for use during the formation of a criminal case about a perp awaiting a jury trial not a story. It’s not entertainment; its two dead minors.

The only direct victims are dead.

The accused had taken his attentive wife’s absence as the opportunity to be the pervert he dreamed of being and took measures to protect his identity at his leisure in the crime scene.

Let’s be clear this case is not for us as much as the FM with the lurid unnecessary debasement of the girls by the defense wants it to be and wasted its time on. That’s all the D’s resume work for future tv/sm work, imo.

They know RA is doomed so they are looking forward to how this case can benefit them, their careers and future earnings on tv/sm/G-F-M, etc.





*Special Judge Fran Gull in the Delphi double murder trial has issued a Gag Order to prohibit the State and the Defense and investigators from talking to the media about the case against Richard Allen.

https://www.newsnationnow.com/us-ne...-attorney-puzzled-court-prosecutor-blow-back/





All imo

 

[girlhasnoname]

The whole psychology of his actions is fascinating. I wonder if we'll ever know the whole truth behind it all?

I was thinking maybe the jeans getting wet crossing the creek played a part. Abby's were very slim fitting. From experience, putting on wet/damp slim jeans is hard, even on a slim body. Abby being so slim, Libby's jeans would be much easier to get on her. Then he decided to cover Libby with leaves and threw the extra clothes in the creek...minus what he kept.
Just some thoughts

Agree it's a mystery as to what RA was thinking, we'll probably never know the entire truth.

He left Abby completely clothed and Libby completely nude at the crime scene, that tells me something right there.

The Franks Memo said Abby was redressed in Libby's clothes, but we don't know that for certain. Maybe both wore their own clothes across the creek at the sand bar area (knee to thigh high at the time searchers were looking) and RA forced Libby to undress once they crossed. IDK

I posted a link here the other day stating LE said it was a bloody crime scene. The FM says not, the FM says Libby's phone was found underneath Abby's body, the PCA says it was underneath Libby. We will wait and see.

I do believe RA was "bloody and muddy and looked like he had been in a fight" as SC said when she saw him walking on N300 Old County Road. His bluejeans were light in color, not dark denim, so blood and mud could have been seen. IMO

ALL JMO

 

[m00c0w]

BBM

“We” as in crime forum posters?

“We” are not told anything beyond the press conferences.

I think I see the problem leading to the overall lack of understanding by some in this case; it is not being tried for the public’s entertainment and dissection on sm by the Prosecution.

RSBM

This is why I have trouble with the teleporting pants theory. The only indication pants were different is a very old statement at the extreme outset of the case, which has had no rational reason to be corrected in the future. No one’s going to make a press release to reveal the description was minorly incorrect so that someone sleuthing the case doesn’t get confused in a few years. We are not the target audience of this investigation, so we’re not owed updates on relatively trivial aspects that have zero bearing on anything outside of law enforcement and the prosecution of the perpetrator.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

I will respectfully point out that the defense makes zero citations during the section where they are talking about the crime scene and clothing. It’s wholly unclear where they got this information and if it’s based entirely on photos, or if they also used depositions or reports or other documents to gain this knowledge.

The lack of citations when they carefully cite most other things is pretty telling to me that they might be stretching the truth a bit.

JMO

Thi quote below is included in the body of the crime scene description but there's no footnote.
The highlighting is mine.

FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf | PDF Host

PDF Host read free online - FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf - ANDREW J. BALDWIN

pdfhost.io

Part I - The Crime Scene
Page 30:
"The Defense has provided the court with
twelve crime scene and autopsy photographs,
marked as exhibits 5-16, as “confidential.” These
photographs support the descriptions provided
in the previous paragraphs."

 

[girlhasnoname]

Thi quote below is included in the body of the crime scene description but there's no footnote.
The highlighting is mine.

FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf | PDF Host

PDF Host read free online - FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf - ANDREW J. BALDWIN

pdfhost.io

Part I - The Crime Scene
Page 30:
"The Defense has provided the court with
twelve crime scene and autopsy photographs,
marked as exhibits 5-16, as “confidential.” These
photographs support the descriptions provided
in the previous paragraphs."

I found Footnotes on Page 30 in the copy you linked: This is the problem I have, the Defense claims things in the body of the document as fact and then footnotes of "speculation" or a "theory made by them not supported by any facts" follows.

Has anyone ever seen a FM even remotely written or worded in this manner? I have not.

<see emphasis mine>.

17
This stick configuration is a spot-on resemblance for the rune called “Hagal”. This rune is used to depict the word
‘Hail”. Therefore, the combination of the Hagal rune found on Abby and the Ansuz rune found on the tree when
combined would proclaim “Hail Odin.” This sentiment (“Hail Odin”) was one of the many easter eggs BH
left behind on his Facebook page on multiple posts. (We're basing BH's easter eggs on his FB as fact???)
18
The Defense team speculates that because of the lack of blood visible in the crime scene photos, especially
concerning Abby, that the murderers may have saved the blood to be used in future rituals. This is merely a theory
admittedly not supported by any facts currently in possession of the Defense, but a theory that would certainly
explain the lack of expected blood at the crime scene.
19
The F resembles a rune called “Ansuz” which stands for “Odin”. Again, when paired with the Hagal rune found
on Abby, the combination would proclaim: “Hail Odin.” This “F” symbol was the same “F” symbol found in many
of BH's Facebook pages which will be attached, including H’s creepy self-drawn illustration in which a red “F” rune was found at the base of a tree where a man appeared to be sacrificed on a tree.

All JMO

 

[TTF14]

Has anyone ever seen a FM even remotely written or worded in this manner? I have not.

No other cases I've followed have filed Franks motions (that I'm aware of), so I haven't read any other Franks memorandums.

 

[girlhasnoname]

No other cases I've followed have filed Franks motions (that I'm aware of), so I haven't read any other Franks memorandums.

Fair enough.

 

[monicadc74]

I may not be as up-to-date in this case as I would like and this may have been already dicussed but I have counted 3 different locations for Libby's shoes through the years.
1. As reported by Kelsi, in a driveway under the bridge before they were found.
2. As seen in a picture from the day the girls were found cought in a log in the river.
3. As reported in the defense Frank memorandum, under Abby's leg at the crime scene.
Sorry if I am late to the party with this question but I would really appreciate if any of you can clarify what is the reason to have 3 reported Libby's shoes found.
Thanks!

 

[Inthedetails]

Trying to catch up on all the reading so I'm up to date...long way to go!

Just wanted to say that regardless of who's clothes was on Abby it seems he may cared for her in that sinister twisted mind of his by dressing her to protect her modesty or from experiencing shame.

With Libby, however, it seems she was left exposed for the world to see for the purpose of humiliating her with little regard for her self respect or that she was even a living human being. He may have been punishing her!

Sexual motivation seems highly likely even if both weren't violated by him in that kind of way - not sure if that has been confirmed or not.

I feel it was just one perpetrator not two.

Does anyone know if there were defense wounds on Libby?

Just thought of a scenario I don't think has been discussed ... maybe Abbey had a moment when she thought she could quickly put on some clothing, fast, and escape - so she grabbed whatever was handy and quickly as she could. But, it was too late and she was stopped.

(I am aware that there is no evidence for this. I realize this is not a court and I am not serving on the jury, but recognize I am on a crime discussion board.)

Speculating, brainstorming, tossing ideas on the table.

jmo

 

[iamshadow21]

Just thought of a scenario I don't think has been discussed ... maybe Abbey had a moment when she thought she could quickly put on some clothing, fast, and escape - so she grabbed whatever was handy and quickly as she could. But, it was too late and she was stopped.

(I am aware that there is no evidence for this. I realize this is not a court and I am not serving on the jury, but recognize I am on a crime discussion board.)

Speculating, brainstorming, tossing ideas on the table.

jmo

She was redressed after she was killed.

If the Franks is to be believed, that is.

Her throat was cut, but her shirt was not saturated with the blood, suggesting that she had finished bleeding and possibly even been washed or wiped down before the redressing

MOO

 

[Inthedetails]

She was redressed after she was killed.

If the Franks is to be believed, that is.

Her throat was cut, but her shirt was not saturated with the blood, suggesting that she had finished bleeding and possibly even been washed or wiped down before the redressing

MOO

Aha, thanks for the reminder of reality.

jmo

 

[iamshadow21]

Aha, thanks for the reminder of reality.

jmo

Glad to be useful for something! And something that's actually about the case and the girls, not the legal drama.

MOO

 

[TTF14]

Aha, thanks for the reminder of reality.

jmo

So that part of the Franks memo is believed, but nothing else? How do we decide what to believe from the FM and what not to believe?