Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #188

[Megnut]

It speaks volumes that the Defense can't reach the threshold even for a hearing on their attempts to confuse, obfuscate, misdirect.

There are criteria for a third-party SODDI defense. They haven't met it.

There are criteria for motions, criteria for hearings. There's criteria for experts, evidence, exhibits. Has to be relevant, among others.

Not every defendant has a workable "defense". This Defense will have an opportunity to cross examine every State's witness, challenge testimony, elicit doubt, niggle credibility.

There will be limits to what they can introduce, which is as it should be. The State has limits too (the State already streamlined their case in chief to accommodate the original three week schedule). If RA has an episode or history of DV, for instance, the judge might rule that it's not only prejudicial it's unfairly prejudicial and disallow it. He's not on trial for that, falls under that 'bad acts' umbrella. Some of his confessions could be thrown out, that is if the State intends to introduce them. There may be limits to what exhibits (crime scene and autopsy photos, for instance) get in and how and whether they're blurred or black-barred. If other trials are indicative, the State won't be allowed to overload crime photos, for added shock value, and in a perfect world, both sides work together to reach agreements/stipulations outside of court so the trial is organized, orderly, and ultimately fair.

JMO

 

[TTF14]

Why? Maybe because of the SM cranks and circus performers. Judge Gull barred 2 YT-ers from the Contempt hearing from attending any further, it got so bad they almost came to blows.

A Courtroom is a reverant place to be treated with dignity and respect. This will be an emotional trial of Defendant Allen for the brutal murders of Abby & Libby. I don't blame Judge Gull one bit for not trusting the D or their less than trust worthy followers from trying to pull some camera worthy stunts. It's her Court, it's her decision, and I support it.

I wonder if the Due Process Gang will be allowed to attend?

JMO

This is false. See my post above and my screenshot of her actual words.

Were YouTubers behaving badly outside on the lawn/sidewalk? Yes, but it's not why she banned cameras. She blamed that on the media pool not following some rules.

IMO MOO

 

[Spartygirl]

#JusticeforLibby&Abby



Photo by WRTV News

 

[sunshineray]

Well, I can't speak to it being undeniably in your face since I've never stepped foot in Indiana, much less that courtroom. But she was talking about the official media, not YouTubers. Would love to know more, but she was vague and doesn't seem to want to bend on this issue, despite being a proponent of cameras in Indiana courtrooms.

IMO MOO

That was just a generalization about the different types of media in and around the courthouse on the days court is in session on this case. Some reporters, IMO, act in the same vein as these youtubers. I would like to know which ones are responsible for ruining the live TV coverage for everyone. MO

 

[TTF14]

That was just a generalization about the different types of media in and around the courthouse on the days court is in session on this case. Some reporters, IMO, act in the same vein as these youtubers. I would like to know which ones are responsible for ruining the live TV coverage for everyone. MO

You mean her words were just a generalization about media in and around the courthouse? I don't know how we can possibly know that. I would rather go by what she actually said than try to extrapolate it into what I want her to mean.

IMO MOO

 

[sunshineray]

You mean her words were just a generalization about media in and around the courthouse? I don't know how we can possibly know that. I would rather go by what she actually said than try to extrapolate it into what I want her to mean.

IMO MOO

I said it's my generalization and then my opinion that the atmosphere as well as the actions by certain people in the media pool that contributed to JG's ruling. MO

 

[TTF14]

I said it's my generalization and then my opinion that the atmosphere as well as the actions by certain people in the media pool that contributed to JG's ruling. MO

Oh ok, thank you. I thought you meant her words were a generalization. I'd love to blame it on the insane YouTubers (not a fan of any of them who were involved), but I'm not getting that from JG's words. I think she'd have said that if it was because of them. I'm more interested in what the mainstream media did to make her ban cameras, but I think she was intentionally vague because there isn't an actual good reason (in my opinion). OR there's a reason we "can't" know - like protection of some witnesses or something.

IMO MOO

 

[Willow Knight]

You mean her words were just a generalization about media in and around the courthouse? I don't know how we can possibly know that. I would rather go by what she actually said than try to extrapolate it into what I want her to mean.

IMO MOO

There was more than one incident. The judge spoke more than once on the behavior, once when media did not follow her orders. A second time when the Judge had to ban YouTubers due to their disturbance in the court house and continued it outside the courthouse.

My concern also includes the defense not being capable of securing crime scene photos from the public's eye. Many would like to see this trial live, even me, however not at the expense of Abby and Libby. There will be transcripts.

I respect Judge Gull and her will to keep this trial ethical.

 

[Ravenmoon]

It would be nice to actually know what factual evidence the state has against Richard Allen. In my opinion, at this time the only hard evidence they have against him is the unspent cartridge found at the scene of the crime that toolmark analysis says could only have come from his gun. How solid is the science behind this evidence though? Then there are confessions too, but how detailed are they?

What will be really interesting at trial is to find out if the witness who saw Richard Allen on platform 1 can actually identify him as the person she saw on platform 1. If she cannot or she says she is unsure, the whole timeline might fall apart. Ironically, Richard Allen helps the state by claiming in the PCA that he indeed did walk past the Mears Farm Entrance and saw vehicles there, but did not pay any attention to them as he walked to the Monon High Bridge.

If someone else did murder Abigial Williams and Liberty German, the one conclusion I have come to is that this person came into the Monon High Bridge area and left the Monon High Bridge area without being seen or remembered.

Indiana police superintendent: Delphi murders' facts will come out at trial

-Team 8: The probable cause affidavit, I suspect, is going to answer a lot of I-Team 8’s questions. Will it answer all of our questions?

Carter: Oh, no. Remember, this case is 2,100 days old, and the facts in their totality will come out at the trial and not until then.


It's pretty clear that the state has not made their evidence public. We will get the information at trial.

JMO

 

[photographer4]

RA had over 5 years to destroy any evidence he had on that phone. Or he may have gotten a new one during that time that was never used in any shady business. It sounds like he got new phones often based on the number that was recovered during the SW.

My phone plan upgrades me (if I choose) each time a new iPhone version comes out.

JMO

Those other phones may not all have been his though to be fair. If the warrant said they could take any cell phones or computers or tablets in the house then it is possible those may have belonged to others in the home.

 

[MiniMoo]

Was there any logs kept of who was searching? Eg: a copy of drivers license? Or names written down?

I wonder if Delphi does things like that - maybe it is something that should be done as a standard procedure state to state when it comes to missing people and search parties. I'm sure most do do it, but maybe not so much in the initial stages.

Some perpetrators have actually joined search parties and vigils held for those they've taken whether kept alive or not so I don't think it unwise to write down names, phone numbers and some form of ID when it comes to anyone that volunteers.

Some perpetrators that helped with searches or attended vigils : Ariel Castro and Ian Huntley.

 

[MiniMoo]

The sketches aren't photos

The 1st sketch is a likeness, IMO, to Libby's video capture of BG and who the witnesses saw, RA=BG

The 2nd sketch, announced at the 2019 presser, when LE said--

"We believe you were hiding in plain sight. For more than 2 years, you never thought we would shift gears to a different investigative strategy. But we have."

The new direction, different strategy released sketch #2 was a brilliant maneuver by LE. IMO

It sure makes sense now after connecting all the dots. JMO

Delphi murders update: ISP shares new sketch, video, audio

Indiana State Police say they will announced a 'new direction' in the 2017 homicides of Delphi teens Abby Williams and Libby German.

www.jconline.com

And yet it still took another 3 years and I don't think those sketches had anything to do with it.

 

[MiniMoo]

I believe it's because of the circus atmosphere that's exploded online and bled right onto the defense that spurred JG to that decision. I'm still hoping she'll pick two or three journalists to hear live streaming audio in a separate room, so some accurate reporting can be given to the public. Even filming it for the court to be released well after a verdict would be a good alternate to live televising. JMO

Agreed. Filmed at the very least.

 

[photographer4]

It would be nice to actually know what factual evidence the state has against Richard Allen. In my opinion, at this time the only hard evidence they have against him is the unspent cartridge found at the scene of the crime that toolmark analysis says could only have come from his gun. How solid is the science behind this evidence though? Then there are confessions too, but how detailed are they?

What will be really interesting at trial is to find out if the witness who saw Richard Allen on platform 1 can actually identify him as the person she saw on platform 1. If she cannot or she says she is unsure, the whole timeline might fall apart. Ironically, Richard Allen helps the state by claiming in the PCA that he indeed did walk past the Mears Farm Entrance and saw vehicles there, but did not pay any attention to them as he walked to the Monon High Bridge.

If someone else did murder Abigial Williams and Liberty German, the one conclusion I have come to is that this person came into the Monon High Bridge area and left the Monon High Bridge area without being seen or remembered.

Your post made me wonder, what, if anything stops the witnesses from reading online about the case? What actually precludes them from reading here or watching YouTube etc? How would that even be monitored if at all?

 

[photographer4]

To me RA confessing to his wife and mother multiple times in a phone call is key. Also his wife disconnecting that call and then RA going into a meltdown right after. Whether the call coming first before the delivery of discovery to him or after he saw the discovery...it works both ways in my mind.

All those subsequent confessions not being involved with LE interrogations (especially the letters to the warden) also gives them more value to me. It will sort itself all out when we finally get to hear exactly how RA confessed and what he's said. Details not known to the public would be very convincing. Talking about those, I believe that's the main reason the original FM included so much description of the scene, to take away from LE some of those things that only the killer knows, to weaken any further confessions RA might give. I also think it's extremely likely RA's lawyers told him to start confessing falsehoods (I shot them), pretty reprehensible of them, IMO.
All Just My Opinion

Even details only the killer would know don’t really convince me at this point. They would have if he had turned himself in before being arrested. But knowing how sometimes information is provided deliberately or unintentionally by interrogators to those under investigation, I really don’t care so much that he made confessions at. Especially given the conditions he had / has been living in. Some people just want the questioning to stop so they say what they think will make it stop. Some people feel so bad they want the loved ones to quit on them and saying they did it may make this happen. To me sometimes it’s a means to an end rather than a true admission.

It will be interesting to learn what he said and when. To whom. And under what mental health conditions etc.

This is all moo but false confessions can happen as per the link I posted up thread.

 

[photographer4]

It has been discussed with various theories. The outline of the gun in the jacket from Liberty German's phone video of bridge guy looks like it was in the pocket so as to be pulled out by someone who is left-handed.

From watching Richard Allen play pool, it looks like he is right-handed. This was my own interpretation though.

Also, some crime scene photos were unfortunately released in this case. I have not seen them and do not want to, but crime scene photos can tell a story to an investigator. I have seen a re-creation of the photos and if the re-creation is correct, Liberty German's left hand is over her head. I wondered if maybe the killer dragged her body to where it was found by grabbing her left hand although that does not really prove anything about whether or not the killer is left-handed.

What really matters is the factual evidence against Richard Allen.

Can anyone at least prove how tall the person is in Liberty German's phone video?

About the photo from LG’z device. I can’t remember what phone she used. But do we know if she used the camera with the screen facing her or screen facing toward BG? I have assumed it was with screen facing her. I wonder if the direction the screen was facing when the video clip was captured may impact viewer’s perceptions of which side Bg was on / what side pocket thing may have been etc. I haven’t studied this case nor the evidence from her video well enough to know and am now curious.

 

[photographer4]

I believe it's because of the circus atmosphere that's exploded online and bled right onto the defense that spurred JG to that decision. I'm still hoping she'll pick two or three journalists to hear live streaming audio in a separate room, so some accurate reporting can be given to the public. Even filming it for the court to be released well after a verdict would be a good alternate to live televising. JMO

Why from a separate room? Why allow them to hear it but no one else? I don’t understand the reasoning JG may have. Edited as I originally thought there wasn’t a written decision on this and lamented it would be nice to have but then read further down and realized actually she did the write up. My apologies.

 

[photographer4]

She said it was because the media pool didn't follow her instructions when she allowed cameras for her public shaming hearing. She didn't specify what she meant by that, but made no mention of the "circus atmosphere." You are of course free to believe what you wish, but I'm going by what Judge Gull actually said.

IMO MOO

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Oh! And here I just posted that it would have been nice to have a written decision vs a stamp. I didn’t realize we had one. Sorry for my error.

 

[Megnut]

I wonder if Delphi does things like that - maybe it is something that should be done as a standard procedure state to state when it comes to missing people and search parties. I'm sure most do do it, but maybe not so much in the initial stages.

Some perpetrators have actually joined search parties and vigils held for those they've taken whether kept alive or not so I don't think it unwise to write down names, phone numbers and some form of ID when it comes to anyone that volunteers.

Some perpetrators that helped with searches or attended vigils : Ariel Castro and Ian Huntley.

One could argue RA inserted himself in the case -- tipping himself in, comping Libby's funeral photos (on the company dime), discussing it at the pool hall where his poster hung....

Anybody check the books? Did RA regularly give away goods and services? (Was he making good on it with money from his own pocket or was he straight up stealing from his employer?) Did he do that for every funeral? Just that one? And why? Wasn't expected, wasnt required, likely he didn't even have the authority to do so, so why did he? Guilt? Thrill? Power move? Further disguising himself, nice guy at CVS?

I do wonder if it ate at him... or if it fed him.

He's still here, and they're not. It's backwards.

JMO

 

[ClearAhead]

She said it was because the media pool didn't follow her instructions when she allowed cameras for her public shaming hearing. She didn't specify what she meant by that, but made no mention of the "circus atmosphere." You are of course free to believe what you wish, but I'm going by what Judge Gull actually said.

IMO MOO

View attachment 520235

Wasn’t it because the media photographed RA’s wife and mother leaving the courthouse after RA was whisked away?

No upstanding judge would want this trial to become a reality show featuring friends and relatives of the accused and of the victims simply to provide entertainment for the general public. Look see so-and-so’s expression on their face, does it mean they think RA is guilty or innocent?.. Anyone attending the trial sitting in the audience has the right of privacy. MOO and JMO