Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #190

[m00c0w]

I think MS said the blood expert said Libby was cut in the neck three times but she was moving after the first cut. He believes she staggered, fell to her knees, put her hand up against her neck to attempt to stop the bleeding, and then put her hand on the tree. He believes the blood is from the side of her hand and her pinky finger. She then collapsed and died.

Sorry for being graphic. Awful to think about that

Yes, this was an incredibly horrible thing that happened and I can only hope that things can stop being conjured out of thin air regarding what “may” have happened during the murders. It feels like we have a pretty good idea of how the actual homicide events occurred at this point (identity of who did it aside), and I’m not sure that speculating about how maybe something slightly different happened with zero evidence is particularly useful or respectful.

JMO

 

[Tealgrove]

He was moved to a gen pop? I don't think so because both the defense and the prosecution argued strongly against that.

I didn’t say that.

The judge vacated the order for safekeeping. He is being moved out of state prison to county prison. His actual location will not be released.

 

[susane7]

I didn’t say that.

The judge vacated the order for safekeeping. He is being moved out of state prison to county prison. His actual location will not be released.

I know, I'm sorry. I just was asking because I think I saw some posters here concerned about him in Gen Pop after him be moved and I don't know if he is in gen pop but I hope not.

 

[Megnut]

I shouldn't give it the bother to ask... but in what universe, what century, what ritualistic sacrifice are human children sacrificed by multiple stab/slice wounds?

I hope Judge Gull shuts that whole line down.

jmo

 

[MiniMoo]

Actually, if the phone was in airplane mode - would the device record movement like steps or direction still? I ask because someone up thread said the device was flooded with texts in the wee hours while the kids were still missing and I am wondering if it was off entirely or in airplane mode or how this is possible? IMO. Moo.

With the phone it was an iPhone (correct me if I'm wrong anyone) so maybe it had that capability inbuilt.

Maybe anyone that has an iPhone can let us know.

 

[grannygates]

IMO there is no circumstance where they would not be to record and estimated TOD after finding the bodies within the next 24-48 hours. It is one of the most important parts of the pathology report in a homicide case. There are numerous changes the body makes postmortem and these changes can be measured/observed and recorded to determine that estimation. Fire could potentially influence TOD estimation, but if there was a fire arson investigators would also be involved.
<modsnip - no link/rumor>

Can anyone explain these discrepancies to me? I have seen names of a forensic pathologist and a local coroner online, but I wasn’t around in the beginning so I am still confused about what order all of this happened? Did a local coroner (who signed off on the state death certificates) conduct an autopsy before the forensic pathologist? How far were they transported to the pathologist/where was the pathologist located? TIA!

MOO

For anyone who’s interested in reading what all is analyzed to determine TOD:

Methods of Estimation of Time Since Death (2023)

Methods of Estimation of Time Since Death - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

Forensic pathologists are essentially required to estimate the time since death (TSD) to assist in death investigation by limiting the investigation period and thus helping narrow down the number of suspects in homicide cases. TSD also provides valuable information in establishing the timeline...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

That was such a good read. Thank you for sharing that. I learned so much !

One of the suggestions from that page and that I see quite often is the GI tract/stomach contents. I had wondered about this because that seems to me as something that shouldnt be affected by premature refrigeration? This was a link that gave me a bit of a breakdown of where stomach contents would be at specific time intervals after TOD. So I do wonder if/how that came in to play during this autopsy.

Various ingested food materials remain within the stomach for variable periods of time, depending on the nature and size of the meal. It has been determined through extensive research that under ordinary circumstances the stomach empties its contents four to 6 hours after a meal. If the stomach, at autopsy, is found to be filled with food, and digestion of the contents not extensive, it is reasonable to assume that death followed shortly after the meal. If the stomach is entirely empty, death probably took place at least 4 to 6 hours after the last meal. If the small intestine is also empty, the probability is that death took place at least 12 or more hours after the last meal. In certain cases the medical examiner will be able to determine the type of food, which still remains in the stomach, if matched with the last known meal. This can help establish a time period.

Articles

MOO

 

[Boxer]

Yes, this was an incredibly horrible thing that happened and I can only hope that things can stop being conjured out of thin air regarding what “may” have happened during the murders. It feels like we have a pretty good idea of how the actual homicide events occurred at this point (identity of who did it aside), and I’m not sure that speculating about how maybe something slightly different happened with zero evidence is particularly useful or respectful.

JMO

I missed the testimony can you tell me where to see or read it? Thank you

 

[sunshineray]

Interesting idea. I don’t know where / how she was wounded but based on what I read up above to this point it seems neck? I struggle to picture a person who’s cut on the neck moving their hand away from that injury unless it’s to ward off another possible injury / attack. I hope for a summary of testimony soon as it’s a lot to follow especially when I don’t entertain podcasts or YouTube really. Thanks!

Libby was according to the blood spatter expert, a 20 year detective, standing and in motion when the first wound was inflicted to her neck from behind. She at some point stumbled to her knees, reaching out to that tree. It sounded like it was to steady herself, maybe try and rise up again, get away. The horror, in just the few details we heard about during these hearings, hits like a ton of bricks.

According to MS's Aine, RA acted noticable differnt during this testimony, where he'd been calm and unaffected with the Odinist stuff, he was observed becoming very fidgety while Libby's horror played out.

The Delphi Murders: Three Days of Pretrial Hearings: Day Three

Additional content warning: This episode contains discussion of suicide. Today in the Delphi case, we attended the final day of pre-trial hearings. It ended...

murdersheetpodcast.com

 

[sunshineray]

MOO Someeone's going to go after him. Is dropping the safekeeping by defense request a form if assisting RA to suicide by enraged inmate?

I think as far as accommodations go, it's probably going to be a lot more in your face noisy in county jail's general public atmosphere. He probably won't have control of his lights either. And yeah, he will still be a marked man and now with much less protection and less mental health care. MO

 

[grannygates]

Why are some so hung up on the time of death?



They have the photos of the bridge and Abby and the video and RA being seen walking towards his car. So they have a time frame of when the crime occurred and a exact time of death doesn’t change that evidence.

Moo

The exact time of death is incredibly important. This time of death directly concerns all of the “solid alibis” that are being discussed in this case. The murderer needs to be available during the TOD to have committed this crime.

We definitely don’t convict people on a double homicide because three people were on the same trail on the same day.

If the entire theory of the prosecutions case is resting on this entire crime occurring within one hour so that the witness can see the “killer” walking down the road, the prosecution needs to actually prove that, and we should expect them to have real evidence to back up all of the claims that they are making in their case.

MOO

 

[sunshineray]

I missed the testimony can you tell me where to see or read it? Thank you

I don't think the transcripts are available yet. They do talk about it at the end of this MS podcast

The Delphi Murders: Three Days of Pretrial Hearings: Day Three

Additional content warning: This episode contains discussion of suicide. Today in the Delphi case, we attended the final day of pre-trial hearings. It ended...

murdersheetpodcast.com

It's also being written out by others that were there but we can't link it here.

 

[Boxer]

I don't think the transcripts are available yet. They do talk about it at the end of this MS podcast

The Delphi Murders: Three Days of Pretrial Hearings: Day Three

Additional content warning: This episode contains discussion of suicide. Today in the Delphi case, we attended the final day of pre-trial hearings. It ended...

murdersheetpodcast.com

It's also being written out by others that were there but we can't link it here.

Thanks : )

 

[grannygates]

Ah yes and they managed to skip past the searchers in the dark of night and risked getting caught by returning the bodies.

That theory goes out the window with them being able to tell from Blood splatter that it happened in those woods from that testimony yesterday. IMO

The blood splatter expert said nothing about the time that any of this occurred. That’s not his expertise. MOO

 

[grannygates]

My guess would be she was desperately trying to remain upright to try to escape RA who had ripped her throat open with a box opener.
A young girl, seconds from dying, trying to simply live, and there are questions about why she put her hand on a tree.
A better question would be to the defense and why they have perpetuated this entire Odin nonsense and why some people after hearing the last three days of real testimony still are trying to prop it up.

If you still think that the defense made up the original suspects, you have not heard any of the “real” testimony that occurred yesterday.

I look forward to the transcripts coming out so that everyone will have the same unbiased information and will have the opportunity to read the full testimony given by every witness.

 

[grannygates]

Ever skeptical I wonder: could someone have put Lg’s hand where the “print” / “fehu” depending on which one believes, was eventually found? Eg: as she’s dying? Or post mortem? If she’s mortally wounded, her hand in theory would go if possible to the injury to stop blood flow. Why is her hand on a tree?

I think that it is very unlikely to be what is alleged by the expert.IMO

In my completely unprofessional opinion I don’t believe that the offered hand positon would be the natural position for a person resting against a tree (it’s probably the opposite, actually) the hand is in an awkward crooked position with the shoulder rotated and the elbow facing upwards. You would need to rest your hand long enough to transfer a solid line horizontally and then lift up all of your fingers and drag just the palm of your hand down very slowly in a completely straight line for 7” with no deviation, with equal distribution. As this was allegedly done in one movement, you would need to have transferred enough blood into your hand for that one rest and swipe to fill in all of the crooks and crannies of that bark for the entire shape.

I would be able to be convinced if this expert videotaped his experiment to prove this was possible.

Good news is that I am also now under the impression that this tree was photographed with luminal. This was a question that I had but I wasn’t certain with the history of this case. I also expected that someone would remove the bark from the tree. This luminal photography should give more information to an expert about the faint lines that this expert says don’t exist and whether there is invisible material outside of this shape.

MOO

 

[sunshineray]

The blood splatter expert said nothing about the time that any of this occurred. That’s not his expertise. MOO

No the phone extraction officer did address that. IIRC, at 2:11:56 pm, right after "Guys, down the hill" Libby's video/audio stopped. Libby's iPhone Fitness app clocked her moving for the next 18 mins and then that phone didn't move again. The phone was found under Libby's shoe, that shoe was underneath Abby's body.

Something else to note, the clothes Abby was wearing were described by the blood splatter expert as being saturated with blood. So nothing like the description given in the FM. Interesting, MO

The Delphi Murders: Three Days of Pretrial Hearings: Day Three

Additional content warning: This episode contains discussion of suicide. Today in the Delphi case, we attended the final day of pre-trial hearings. It ended...

murdersheetpodcast.com

 

[MiniMoo]

Is it because of funding (lack of) that an expert like a Blood Splatter expert wasn't brought in straight away after the girls were located?

I'm wondering why in 2024 instead of 7 years ago.

 

[grannygates]

Is it because of funding (lack of) that an expert like a Blood Splatter expert wasn't brought in straight away after the girls were located?

I'm wondering why in 2024 instead of 7 years ago.

The FBI was involved pretty quick and said use all the resources that you need. I would think there had to be an original expert who did all of this actually at the crime scene. I am wondering if their original report, identity or involvement is not being disclosed or is missing. MOO

 

[sunshineray]

If you still think that the defense made up the original suspects, you have not heard any of the “real” testimony that occurred yesterday.

I look forward to the transcripts coming out so that everyone will have the same unbiased information and will have the opportunity to read the full testimony given by every witness.

Multiple police officers testified to the real facts going by the evidence, including one of the authors of the Odinist report, ISP Murphy. He said there was no evidence to put any of the accused (by the DT) at the scene, they also had alibis. Murphy's testimony was especially eye opening concerning EF and his sister. Then there was DT's golden boy Rushville PD Click who corroborated what ISP Murphy said. All that was real testimony, linked here by WS allowed sources.

The Delphi Murders: Three Days of Pretrial Hearings: Day Three

Additional content warning: This episode contains discussion of suicide. Today in the Delphi case, we attended the final day of pre-trial hearings. It ended...

murdersheetpodcast.com

 

[grannygates]

No the phone extraction officer did address that. IIRC, at 2:11:56 pm, right after "Guys, down the hill" Libby's video/audio stopped. Libby's iPhone Fitness app clocked her moving for the next 18 mins and then that phone didn't move again. The phone was found under Libby's shoe, that shoe was underneath Abby's body.

Something else to note, the clothes Abby was wearing were described by the blood splatter expert as being saturated with blood. So nothing like the description given in the FM. Interesting, MO

The Delphi Murders: Three Days of Pretrial Hearings: Day Three

Additional content warning: This episode contains discussion of suicide. Today in the Delphi case, we attended the final day of pre-trial hearings. It ended...

murdersheetpodcast.com

I think that the most important thing we learned in the full testimony is that this cell phone expert was only tasked by the prosecution with reporting on the FEB13 cell phone extraction. So as he was not tasked with a FEB14 extraction, he could state that the phone did not turn on again in his report because his report is only FEB13.

He did confirm that the phone was powered on again at 4:33 AM and there were 14 messages received on the device at that time.

You will also note that the expert indicated in their full testimony that the blood saturation on Abby was the hood of her hoodie. There was no blood below her injury. That’s a very crucial detail for the podcast to include in their episode.

MOO