Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #191

[FrostedGlass]

My guess is there an additional header to those notes which we don’t see that include name, address, phone number and date and time.

I would imagine all that info would have been entered into the database and they would have had RA almost immediately.

That additional header you are guessing about probably was added upon his arrest.

 

[SouthEnd]

I think that even the investigators are mixed on what the motive would be if these other people were involved. I don’t think they think it would be a church-like “ritual” service with formal odinists. More like backwoods methhead white supremacists using a religion to fuel their crimes? And your question regarding escalation has been confirmed through the ex wife of the main guy. She said the one friend wanted to step it up from animals. (Linking transcript to motion to dismiss hearing for that). That friend lives minutes from the bridge. She also testified again in more depth in the hearings so that will answer more of your questions once we get to read the transcripts !

I’ve been trying to find good sources that explain what law enforcement classifies as a “ritualistic” crime, because I feel like the legal term is slightly different than how we are thinking. It’s all far less formal.

Clipped by me for focus.

Thank you so much for your response grannygates!
I 100% agree with you that ritualistic, for LE, means any kind of scene that includes some element of a ritual. EG: redressing a victim PM, staging a body etc.

As it was said during the pretrial hearings (MS podcast, 3d day of pre-trial hearings The Delphi Murders: Three Days of Pretrial Hearings: Day Three ) the FBI opined that the ritualistic element of the staging pointed towards Undoing and not Religious sacrifice ( some very pertinent info here: "Undoing" (or Symbolic Reversal) at Homicide Crime Scenes - PubMed )

If we all agree that the ritualistic element of the murders was leaning more towards the wider LE definition of Undoing, vs a specific Odinist ritual that follows any known modern-day Viking animal sacrifice 'guidebook', then how did Dawn Perlmutter reach the conclusion that it is a ritual sacrifice? IMO and according to the FBI and according to Mark Mirabello's opinion in Nancy Grace's interview (youtube.com/watch?v=1izU3hytz2Y), it did not resemble what one would expect from a Pagan sacrifice.

Now that's not to say that TC's opinion that Abby and Libby happened upon a gathering and were summarily murdered for whatever reason (sorry to sound flippant, I personally do not believe the 'making fun' argument has been well established) gets immediately disproven with the lack of an Odinist sacrifice 'evidence'.

In fact IMO the idea that the girls happened upon anything illegal, CSAM related, drug related, etc and were murdered as a result is much more likely than the idea of a spontaneous and yet unorthodox ritual in an area without any previous ritualistic markers.

Which brings me to the question: Why would the DT go with the Odinism human sacrifice theory, when a) Todd Click does not support it b) The FBI analysis does not support it c) Experts such as Mark Mirabello don't support it d) there is no precedent that we know of?

Isn't it easier to meet burden of proof by following Todd Click's theory? IMO / JMO etc it feels like going for the human sacrifice is betting RA's life on a losing hand in poker - as in you have no colors, no pairs, no threes, no face cards and no aces and you just hope the other players have worse cards, which is a statistical impossibility.

TL;DR - if we all agree (MOO) that the scene is only ritualistic in the more general meaning of the word, then why go with the hardest possible to prove theory, if the only thing you want to prove is that SODDI???

(ETA: link to the NG interview)

 

[SouthEnd]

Hello @SouthEnd and WELCOME TO WS !!!!

This is a great first post !!!

I mostly feel positive that the Jury will be able to see through the chaos and that the Prosecuting team will put everything together to prove RA=BG but agree with you that after the Karen R trial, it makes one a bit nervous.

Thank you so much Spartygirl, you are most kind!

I am trying to be hopeful for a timely and just resolution that will bring some kind of closure to the families and friends, but exactly, the Karen R trial does worry me.

 

[Trebor5591]

Another weird thing about EF's story----they live in a very small town. Why couldn't the sister's tell LE WHO the 2 guys were with EF at the bridge?

If EF really did get a ride from 2 guys that took him to Delphi, wouldn't EF be able to say who they were? And LE would have been able to investigate them as well. But apparently LE could not find any evidence that any of them were in Delphi that day.

Delphi has a population of around 3.000. That's far too many people for anyone to know everyone, IMO.

 

[ClearAhead]

I would imagine all that info would have been entered into the database and they would have had RA almost immediately.

That additional header you are guessing about probably was added upon his arrest.

No what I was imagining was an interview proforma that some police agencies use. The portion released to the public might only be the ‘remarks’ section.

Was DD responsible for data input? I don’t think we know why that particular interview didn’t get the attention of anyone.

 

[MiniMoo]

Maybe in the UK it's different. but here in the USA, the defense does not have to prove anything is true. The state has to prove their case, and the defense has but to create "reasonable doubt". That is my understanding.

If it becomes something like Burden Of Proof then the Defense has to do more.

 

[MiniMoo]

Fascinating, thank you for sharing that information. It certainly could have a bearing and might even explain why he felt compelled to make multiple confessions.

@katydid23 : "Dr. Monica Wala noted in past reports her concerns that Allen was faking his symptoms.”

a: It was faking psychotic episodes or behaviours on or around April 7th.

"Increasingly and purposely displaying Psychotic behaviour...(fake/feigning)."

b: What was well documented and from early on with RA (young age I believe) was Suicidal Ideation.

c: RA also had a Depressive Disorder.

Other health issues as well. Eg Heart.

 

[ClearAhead]

@katydid23 : "Dr. Monica Wala noted in past reports her concerns that Allen was faking his symptoms.”

a: It was faking psychotic episodes or behaviours on April 7th.

increasingly and purposely

b: What was well documented and from early on with RA (young age I believe) was suicidal ideation.

c: RA also had a Depressive Disorder.

Also from the post I quoted by katydid23 :
Dependent Personality Disorder
“First, keep in mind what Dr Wala said about RA's mental health diagnosis---Dependant Personality Disorder, which makes one extremely dependent upon their partner and very paranoid about being abandoned and alone.”

 

[MiniMoo]

Also from the post I quoted by katydid23 :
Dependent Personality Disorder
“First, keep in mind what Dr Wala said about RA's mental health diagnosis---Dependant Personality Disorder, which makes one extremely dependent upon their partner and very paranoid about being abandoned and alone.”

That as well.

Was going to write it, but put other Health Issues. Eg Heart.

I think what came up is that with him there were indicators rather than diagnoses with some of what was going on with him.

 

[Boxer]

MOO all cult and ritual assertions in this case are juat the usual deflection etc.
Runes look like piles of sticks, young girls taht are murdered are almost always murdered by unbalanced men, not clubs of men.
There was an unbalanced man on the trail, at the time they were on the trail, wearing what the man who ordered them down the hil was wearing.
RA ad the opportunity and means, the undressing indicates the motive.

MOO The defense is just flavoring their boilerplate SODDI, employed by all murder defense attorneys, with conspiracy.

 

[SouthEnd]

Also from the post I quoted by katydid23 :
Dependent Personality Disorder
“First, keep in mind what Dr Wala said about RA's mental health diagnosis---Dependant Personality Disorder, which makes one extremely dependent upon their partner and very paranoid about being abandoned and alone.”

That's actually a standout piece of the puzzle.

In my opinion, if at least one Dr (Wala) identified Dependant Personality Disorder, and the DT wasn't confident that it was wrong, I can imagine that's why they are not leaning on a Mental Health defence re: The Confessions. With such diagnosis, there is a relatively clear path to rationalise the following:
- Being away from his person, caused RA great distress
- Religion offered the possibility of being reunited in the afterlife (+ suicidal ideation in the past, if we are to believe the previous posts)
- Ergo, confess to reach afterlife
- Obstacle: RA's person asks him to stop, and the confessions cause them distress that's worse than the separation
- Leading to, no more confessions & will to fight
All MOO

If a psychosis diagnosis was clear-cut in his case, and was associated with other symptoms that pointed to a break from reality, then, if I was the DT, I would be bringing therapists in and putting MH to the forefront of the defence.
All MOO

 

[SouthEnd]

MOO all cult and ritual assertions in this case are juat the usual deflection etc.
Runes look like piles of sticks, young girls taht are murdered are almost always murdered by unbalanced men, not clubs of men.
There was an unbalanced man on the trail, at the time they were on the trail, wearing what the man who ordered them down the hil was wearing.
RA ad the opportunity and means, the undressing indicates the motive.

MOO The defense is just flavoring their boilerplate SODDI, employed by all murder defense attorneys, with conspiracy.

I agree with you, in that statistically, young females murdered by unknown subs are murdered by single perps vs groups. There is a lot going against the idea of a conspiracy, mostly the fact that the more individuals you add to a crime scene, the more evidence they will leave behind. That's MO and also logic, add 3 more people there and you have 3x footprints, 3x chances of someone forgetting a person item, 3x chances of someone leaving DNA behind etc.

That's why I am struggling to understand why the DT is going with this theory. IMO there are other paths to SODDI that are so much easier to sell to a judge/jurors.

I am genuinely perplexed, I don't personally see more evidence of the Odinists being there than any of the POI that the LE investigated since 2017.

 

[ClearAhead]

That as well.

Was going to write it, but put other Health Issues. Eg Heart.

I think what came up is that with him there were indicators rather than diagnoses with some of what was going on with him.

Yes I do wonder that he was not in a good mental place at the time and so the walls came crashing in. How reliant was he on his wife to serve as his coping mechanism and then what, when she wasn’t around? Just crossed my mind, prior speculation if the date of the murders approaching Valentine’s Day was significant.

JMO

 

[SouthEnd]

Ok sorry for beating a dead horse, but I had a question re: the 'F' shaped rune. Did the DT expert DP explain why they chose that rune in particular? To begin with... yes, it has a 'meaning' by itself, but ultimately, it is just a letter. Runic alphabet is just that, an alphabet, nothing magical by itself - it literally is a spin-off of the ancient greek alphabet. There should be a combination of runes in order to write a message. Did the DT post any theories on what the supposed stick-runes mean, when viewed as a whole?

Back to the 'F' rune. You can see the list of runes, all the three different runic alphabets and the meaning of each letter here: Rune - Wikipedia
There are 2-3 different F shaped runes, and IMO the image does not look particularly like any of them, but. If we go with '*fehu' it means... wealth. If, according to the defence, the Odinists were sacrificing children because of an interracial relationship in one of their families (...) there are other runes they could have picked that mean Hail or Heritage. Why not pick those?

I would need some very strong arguments to believe that the shapes are intentional and related to the case, ideally images of Odinist ceremonies that use runes in such a way. Otherwise was is the difference between them being evidence of a cult-sacrifice, vs evidence of a violent crime?

All IMO!

 

[sunshineray]

Clipped by me for focus.

Thank you so much for your response grannygates!
I 100% agree with you that ritualistic, for LE, means any kind of scene that includes some element of a ritual. EG: redressing a victim PM, staging a body etc.

As it was said during the pretrial hearings (MS podcast, 3d day of pre-trial hearings The Delphi Murders: Three Days of Pretrial Hearings: Day Three ) the FBI opined that the ritualistic element of the staging pointed towards Undoing and not Religious sacrifice ( some very pertinent info here: "Undoing" (or Symbolic Reversal) at Homicide Crime Scenes - PubMed )

If we all agree that the ritualistic element of the murders was leaning more towards the wider LE definition of Undoing, vs a specific Odinist ritual that follows any known modern-day Viking animal sacrifice 'guidebook', then how did Dawn Perlmutter reach the conclusion that it is a ritual sacrifice? IMO and according to the FBI and according to Mark Mirabello's opinion in Nancy Grace's interview (youtube.com/watch?v=1izU3hytz2Y), it did not resemble what one would expect from a Pagan sacrifice.

Now that's not to say that TC's opinion that Abby and Libby happened upon a gathering and were summarily murdered for whatever reason (sorry to sound flippant, I personally do not believe the 'making fun' argument has been well established) gets immediately disproven with the lack of an Odinist sacrifice 'evidence'.

In fact IMO the idea that the girls happened upon anything illegal, CSAM related, drug related, etc and were murdered as a result is much more likely than the idea of a spontaneous and yet unorthodox ritual in an area without any previous ritualistic markers.

Which brings me to the question: Why would the DT go with the Odinism human sacrifice theory, when a) Todd Click does not support it b) The FBI analysis does not support it c) Experts such as Mark Mirabello don't support it d) there is no precedent that we know of?

Isn't it easier to meet burden of proof by following Todd Click's theory? IMO / JMO etc it feels like going for the human sacrifice is betting RA's life on a losing hand in poker - as in you have no colors, no pairs, no threes, no face cards and no aces and you just hope the other players have worse cards, which is a statistical impossibility.

TL;DR - if we all agree (MOO) that the scene is only ritualistic in the more general meaning of the word, then why go with the hardest possible to prove theory, if the only thing you want to prove is that SODDI???

(ETA: link to the NG interview)

Because they're not very good lawyers? Because they have nothing else? Because they probably should have already made a guilty plea for their client who has repeatedly said he did it?

 

[Ravenmoon]

Ok sorry for beating a dead horse, but I had a question re: the 'F' shaped rune. Did the DT expert DP explain why they chose that rune in particular? To begin with... yes, it has a 'meaning' by itself, but ultimately, it is just a letter. Runic alphabet is just that, an alphabet, nothing magical by itself - it literally is a spin-off of the ancient greek alphabet. There should be a combination of runes in order to write a message. Did the DT post any theories on what the supposed stick-runes mean, when viewed as a whole?

Back to the 'F' rune. You can see the list of runes, all the three different runic alphabets and the meaning of each letter here: Rune - Wikipedia
There are 2-3 different F shaped runes, and IMO the image does not look particularly like any of them, but. If we go with '*fehu' it means... wealth. If, according to the defence, the Odinists were sacrificing children because of an interracial relationship in one of their families (...) there are other runes they could have picked that mean Hail or Heritage. Why not pick those?

I would need some very strong arguments to believe that the shapes are intentional and related to the case, ideally images of Odinist ceremonies that use runes in such a way. Otherwise was is the difference between them being evidence of a cult-sacrifice, vs evidence of a violent crime?

All IMO!

The blood splatter expert cleared this up.

This was an imprint left by Libby as she was dying. It appears that she was steadying herself against the tree.

There was never a Fehu.

 

[Boxer]

The blood splatter expert cleared this up.

This was an imprint left by Libby as she was dying. It appears that she was steadying herself against the tree.

There was never a Fehu.

Just an incredibly sad last mark.

 

[MiniMoo]

Yes I do wonder that he was not in a good mental place at the time and so the walls came crashing in. How reliant was he on his wife to serve as his coping mechanism and then what, when she wasn’t around? Just crossed my mind, prior speculation if the date of the murders approaching Valentine’s Day was significant.

JMO

Do you think it's true that he was reliant on his wife and that she was in control of him and their relationship.

I wonder.

 

[photographer4]

Do you ever wonder why DD did not enter RA's cell number into the written interview he took?
Had he done that, RA could have been easily tracked.
MOO

I actually had wondered this!!

 

[ClearAhead]

Ok sorry for beating a dead horse, but I had a question re: the 'F' shaped rune. Did the DT expert DP explain why they chose that rune in particular? To begin with... yes, it has a 'meaning' by itself, but ultimately, it is just a letter. Runic alphabet is just that, an alphabet, nothing magical by itself - it literally is a spin-off of the ancient greek alphabet. There should be a combination of runes in order to write a message. Did the DT post any theories on what the supposed stick-runes mean, when viewed as a whole?

Back to the 'F' rune. You can see the list of runes, all the three different runic alphabets and the meaning of each letter here: Rune - Wikipedia
There are 2-3 different F shaped runes, and IMO the image does not look particularly like any of them, but. If we go with '*fehu' it means... wealth. If, according to the defence, the Odinists were sacrificing children because of an interracial relationship in one of their families (...) there are other runes they could have picked that mean Hail or Heritage. Why not pick those?

I would need some very strong arguments to believe that the shapes are intentional and related to the case, ideally images of Odinist ceremonies that use runes in such a way. Otherwise was is the difference between them being evidence of a cult-sacrifice, vs evidence of a violent crime?

All IMO!

Together a stick formation and the rune on the tree are supposed to signify “Hail Odin”, a creative translation of ‘Hagal’. The blood spatter expert testified the mark on the tree came from Libby’s hand supporting herself.

Allen's defense: Libby and Abby killed in Odinism ritual sacrifice

"Members of a pagan Norse religion, called Odinism ... ritualistically sacrificed Abigail Williams and Liberty German," the motion states.

www.jconline.com

“Additionally, some of the branches had been precut with a power saw, suggesting they were prepared before the killings, according to the memorandum.

"This stick configuration is a spot-on resemblance for the rune (letter) called 'Hagal'," a footnote in the memorandum states . "This rune is used to depict the word ‘Hail.' Therefore, the combination of the Hagal rune found on Abby and the Ansuz rune found on the tree when combined would proclaim 'Hail Odin.' ”…”