Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #192

[sunshineray]

I wonder how the P will work around that? I'm not convinced that their arrival time was 1:49; I do believe it was K's departure time. (Sort of)

BB's vehicle was spotted on the HHS cam at 1:46, which would place her arriving at the parking area after the girls were dropped off. If the girls were dropped off first, how did BB pass them where she said she did?

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2022/11/Probable-Cause-Affidavit-Richard-Allen.pdf

Because she passed them while she was leaving.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Why would her being seen on the camera before the girls were dropped off mean she was arriving at the parking area after the girls were dropped off? It sounds like they just missed each other. She walked to the bridge, turned around, was walking back, saw the girls on their way to the bridge. This seems to be consistent with her having arrived before the girls, which lines up with the times in the PCA.

All from your linked source

MOO

Because the PCA is using the departure time of 1:49 as their drop off time.

Becky said they left right around 1:30, give or take a few minutes
Kelsi was talking to her bf when she dropped them off
The call came in at 1:38
Kelsi claimed she watched them walk to the trailhead and then left.

IMO the 1:38 arrival time closely matches with the travel time from the Patty's home.
It's a short driving distance from home to the parking area.

From @TTF14 link

 

[katydid23]

How do we know the HHS cams were EXACT to the minute. They aren't usually that accurate.

I don't think we can sync this kind of a timeline to be accurate to the minute when using such 'sloppy' descriptions like 'I was talking to my bf when I dropped them off' --- that is not accurate to the minute either.

 

[Salah11]

How do we know the HHS cams were EXACT to the minute. They aren't usually that accurate.

I don't think we can sync this kind of a timeline to be accurate to the minute when using such 'sloppy' descriptions like 'I was talking to my bf when I dropped them off' --- that is not accurate to the minute either.

Yes I’m failing to understand why everything has to be precise to the minute.

It’s like they should have know they were about to be murdered and taken notes every step of the way. Moo

 

[FrostedGlass]

How do we know the HHS cams were EXACT to the minute. They aren't usually that accurate.

I don't think we can sync this kind of a timeline to be accurate to the minute when using such 'sloppy' descriptions like 'I was talking to my bf when I dropped them off' --- that is not accurate to the minute either.

I would sure hope they checked the cam for accuracy.
Can we pick and choose which "accuracy we want to?"

I could probably believe none of it is accurate.

 

[Salah11]

RA has admitted he was there from 1.30-3.30pm. It covers when the young girls were murdered by him.

Due to Abby’s photo on the bridge and then the audio of RA approaching them and demanding they go down the hill, they have a timeline. He admits he went to Platform one and a witness can place him there moments before the girls crossed.

There is no Doppelgänger as RA places himself out on platform one and remarkably dressed similarly to BG.

I mean, what are the odds?!

 

[katydid23]

I would sure hope they checked the cam for accuracy.
Can we pick and choose which "accuracy we want to?"

I could probably believe none of it is accurate.

I don't think you can fine-tune this kind of a timeline down to the exact minute. The kinds of things it is based upon seem too iffy to be exact. JMO

 

[m00c0w]

MOO

Because the PCA is using the departure time of 1:49 as their drop off time.

Becky said they left right around 1:30, give or take a few minutes
Kelsi was talking to her bf when she dropped them off
The call came in at 1:38
Kelsi claimed she watched them walk to the trailhead and then left.

IMO the 1:38 arrival time closely matches with the travel time from the Patty's home.
It's a short driving distance from home to the parking area.

From @TTF14 link

IMO, it’s about a 10 minute drive. “Give or take a few minutes” does a lot of work in that timeline. If they left the house at 1:35 (1:30 plus a few minutes), that puts them there at 1:45. If they encountered traffic, a slow driver, drove slowly themselves, that easily puts them there after BB arrived. I don’t think a couple of minutes in this particular timeline is any kind of exculpatory when RA himself initially stated he was there from 1:30 forward.

MOO

 

[Megnut]

I have no idea if the phone was turned on at 4.30 am or not. But I am sceptical of bare assertion by defence counsel that it "must have been turned on" for the following reasons.

Often in these cases, we do not have the device, so tower evidence of what the phone was doing would be critical. But here we have the device, and presumably reports of the phone logs.

If the phone was really switched back on at 4.30am, then the CAST expert has known this all along. So it would have been a critical part of the investigation since the early days of 2017. And therefore all of that would be evidenced in various parts of discovery the defence now has. So why would the defence attorney not put those records to the witness?

Or if for some reason, that log evidence does not exist, why would the state have not reached the same conclusion as the defence 7 years ago?

Instead, as we saw from the witness, and the states response to the newer Franks, the state case is that one cannot draw that conclusion from the pings.

There has to be some reason why that is IMO

Frustratingly, there is little clear reporting on this aspect - and I am guessing the reason is, there was not actually any examination on what the phone logs say.

MOO

I think that information wasn't presented at this hearing.

Recall, that it went quite long on the third and final day. My guess, time constraints were real.

Moreover, in that context (of the hearing), the State was responding to a specific representation of the Defense to which their expert responded. It would have taken hours IMO for him to break down all of the digital analysis which will umdoubtedly occur at trial.

I think the State is holding back their case in chief.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

I would sure hope they checked the cam for accuracy.
Can we pick and choose which "accuracy we want to?"

I could probably believe none of it is accurate.

A parking lot camera can be considered 'accurate' and still be within a minute or two off in either direction. It's not NASA. Just what time did the car arrive? It does not usually need to be concise to the second, just within a couple of minutes.

The same answer with KG---"I was talking to him when I dropped off the girls" ----did they jump right out of the car? Did they sit there in the car for a bit ? Who knows ?

 

[steeltowngirl]

Yes I’m failing to understand why everything has to be precise to the minute.

It’s like they should have know they were about to be murdered and taken notes every step of the way. Moo

I’m also wondering what alternate theory is behind the questions about the timing. Perhaps it’s just more of the “if the PCA says it, then it must be wrong.”

The girls were dropped off. Witnesses saw a man - likely BG. The girls took a pic of BG. The girls were murdered, presumed to be by BG. The state must prove RA=BG.

The witnesses (imo) are to confirm there was a man resembling BG in the timeframe of the murders. Relieves doubt that the pic was old and (for whatever reason) then posted at 2:07. The photo was taken around 2 pm when they were on the bridge.

jmo

 

[Megnut]

I don't think you can fine-tune this kind of a timeline down to the exact minute. The kinds of things it is based upon seem too iffy to be exact. JMO

Ah, but there is something that will nail the minutes to the map. Digital analysis from the witnesses' phones.

Whether be had his phone, no phone or another phone, whatever phone use RA had that day will convict him.

Libby's phone. The photo. The video.

The girl who took the bench photo.

BB's phone, whether she carried it with her or left it locked in her car, paired with CCTV for double confirmation.

46 seconds of RA's movements. How fast was he gaining on them? How agile on the bridge itself?

A lot has been said about witness unreliability, seemingly to discredit these individuals who never set out to be witnesses. I happen to think, factoring for differences in attention, recall, perspective, the witnesses did a phenomenal job remembering the man they saw. No one saw TWO men, including RA himself. Allowing for variations in memory and remembering, they corroborate one another, and none of them saw no one.

RA trapped his own self on the bridge, locked in by BB's testimony and timeline, within minutes of Abby and Libby reaching the bridge.

The data points (timestamps) are devastating for the defense. Because all they've got is noise with which to confuse them.

What's most bizarre, even if there was some ludicrous ritual at 4pm or 4 am, RA is still responsible for their murders because he abducted them. Their pet defense incriminates their own client. (The Defense hasn't produced a single witness who saw RA at the MHB before 1:30 or anywhere BUT the MHB after 1:30.)

JMO

 

[Vern]

Two.


The killer - BG(RA imo) and BB.

Absolutely, plus snapchat (the e-witness!! Timestamped), plus the girls' video (timestamped and also with audio!) and Kelsi.

The girls were on the bridge and there is evidence to back up that and the time they were on it.

The Harvester Store camera also has footage/timestamps which will no doubt be used to verify timing windows ... but it probably doesn't have audio (not unlike millions of other security cameras).

Justice is coming for these girls. I can feel it. They deserve it because they are the victims here.

What is RAs alibi again? Everyone wants everyone else's alibs for the time period in question, but have yet to offer up RAs. Funny that IMO.

 

[Yemelyan]

So, K dropped them off about 1:13 pm after a girls sleepover and pancakes for breakfast or brunch.

Does anyone else have a different time that K dropped the girls off?

The minors saw RA around 1:26 pm based off of the photograph one took.

So, was that man walking in the same direction the girls were walking in only 10-13 minutes behind?

Is it known where he entered the trail from.

The probable cause document says that Abby and Libby were dropped off "across from the Mears Farm at approximately 1:49pm." Edit to say: I agree with @FrostedGlass that this could be closer to "departure time" of KG. Regardless, it wasn't 1:13pm but later.

Based on that same document, it does appear that the juvenile witnesses saw the man shortly after taking a photo of a bench east of the Freedom Bridge, which is the pedestrian bridge across the Hoosier Heartland Highway. At that time, the girls were walking back towards the Freedom Bridge and the man was heading in the opposite direction, towards the Monon High Bridge (same direction as Abby and Libby, but well behind where they would eventually enter on the trail).

If he entered the trail system near the old CPS building, that would be in the general vicinity of the Freedom Bridge area where the juvenile witnesses encountered him. Assuming that is his car parked by the building - if it isn't, then that is, I guess, still up in the air.

 

[twall]

Update on 08/23/2024 status hearing-

08/13/2024

Order Issued Court orders this matter set for a status hearing August 23, 2024, at 1:00 p.m. in the Carroll Circuit Court. The first portion of the hearing is closed to the public. The second portion of the haring will be open to the public. Court to notify. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Noticed: Diener, Stacey Lynn Noticed: Auger, Jennifer Jones Order Signed: 08/12/2024

 

[TTF14]

Update on 08/23/2024 status hearing-

08/13/2024

Order Issued Court orders this matter set for a status hearing August 23, 2024, at 1:00 p.m. in the Carroll Circuit Court. The first portion of the hearing is closed to the public. The second portion of the haring will be open to the public. Court to notify. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Noticed: Diener, Stacey Lynn Noticed: Auger, Jennifer Jones Order Signed: 08/12/2024

More secrecy. Which motion is this?

 

[tlcya]

More secrecy. Which motion is this?

that thing DT said they didn't want to get into in open court during the 3 day hearing? Maybe something to do with RA's mental health or . . .?

 

[TTF14]

that thing DT said they didn't want to get into in open court during the 3 day hearing? Maybe something to do with RA's mental health or . . .?

Oh maybe. Thank you.

 

[FrostedGlass]

The probable cause document says that Abby and Libby were dropped off "across from the Mears Farm at approximately 1:49pm." Edit to say: I agree with @FrostedGlass that this could be closer to "departure time" of KG. Regardless, it wasn't 1:13pm but later.

Based on that same document, it does appear that the juvenile witnesses saw the man shortly after taking a photo of a bench east of the Freedom Bridge, which is the pedestrian bridge across the Hoosier Heartland Highway. At that time, the girls were walking back towards the Freedom Bridge and the man was heading in the opposite direction, towards the Monon High Bridge (same direction as Abby and Libby, but well behind where they would eventually enter on the trail).

If he entered the trail system near the old CPS building, that would be in the general vicinity of the Freedom Bridge area where the juvenile witnesses encountered him. Assuming that is his car parked by the building - if it isn't, then that is, I guess, still up in the air.

The car sightings are slightly problematic for me. All three occurred between 2:10, 2:14 and 2:28.
It seems they have no sightings before or after. I'm not sure how they will get around that.

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2022/11/Probable-Cause-Affidavit-Richard-Allen.pdf