Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #193

[photographer4]

Yes those ones

I listened to The Murder Sheet to get some of the information from the 3 day hearings.

It seems like Libby definitely fought more but he could have Knocked out Abby as she was so slight before killing her. IMO

I hate to have hit like on this given it’s so clear how awful their murders were. I can’t imagine how they felt.

 

[photographer4]

Given she just ruled on the 7/30 motions today, I’d say you’re spot on. Unless the goal was to drag out her ruling on that motion even longer.

JMO

I’m behind. She did? Where can I read them pls and thanks?

 

[susiQ]

@Cyber sleuth

i agree they might have run out of time to make closing arguments so there was an agreement to put those in a follow up motion but i’d kind of expect that in a day or two not 2 weeks later. after all this is everything they were already prepared to say at the hearing.

it is possible it was agreed they’d get 2 weeks like you suggest.

but it seems odd to me you wouldn’t turn this around fast if you really thought you had a shot with the judge

MOO

Holy Cow! Not m00c0w . You must believe they are Super Attorneys being able to put out 27 pages in a day or two with citations? Wow!

 

[tlcya]

The ones we didn’t get to hear due to a blackout on cameras and electronics ya mean? Still wondering - I’ve not come across any official transcripts of these yet - has anyone seen them in their travels?

My understanding from reports of those who attended the 3 day hearing is that there are no less than 5 instances of confession to family members via recorded phone calls. There are a number of written confessions, including at least one to the warden, to which he testified during the hearing. and then finally, there are those given first person to anyone who would listen.

I had not heard that any were recorded on video and have heard nothing about blackouts during any such confessions?

ETA nevermind, while I was typing this you clarified, thank you, I am now following what you meant.

 

[ClearAhead]

It’s not looking good for the D’s Odinist theory.

Judge again denies Delphi suspect Richard Allen's motion to dismiss

Special Judge Frances Gull says there's no evidence that prosecutors "acted in bad faith."

www.jconline.com

“But Gull said there has been no proof of any evidence incriminating Holder, "nor has any evidence been presented to negate the evidence offered by the State which cleared Brad Holder of involvement in these crimes," Gull wrote.”

 

[Salah11]

I hate to have hit like on this given it’s so clear how awful their murders were. I can’t imagine how they felt.

Yes, that absolute Fear and Terror. It’s just unimaginable. Even for adults, it would have been absolutely horrific, but at their age I can not even begin to imagine it. That's why Libby having the foresight to record him approaching is beyond amazing. I have no words for how much I admire her strength and courage.

 

[susiQ]

Bring this over from thread #192. @m00c0w said:

According to the defense documents, after receiving a buccal swab (which is essentially spit), he asked if his spit was found on one of the girls but he could provide an explanation, would he still be in trouble. It seems apparent to me that he was trying to potentially rationalize why his spit was collected and was freaking out about the possibility of somehow being implicated in the crime. That is not the same as admitting he spit on anyone, and also not the same as just asking the question in a vacuum. It would hold more weight, IMO, if his saliva was not just collected and on his mind.

Regardless, the one question does not establish probable cause that evidence of the murder of AW and LG would be found at EF’s house. Even if a white truck was seen at the CPS building after searching had started. Even if they can’t firmly place EF anywhere. Most importantly, they can’t place him near the crime scene. They have to provide evidence he at least participated in the murders, which they had none. They had a question, a random white truck, and a lack of evidence. That’s barely getting over a reasonable suspicion threshold.

All my opinion.

BBM

This makes sense to me taking the buccal swap part of it into account. If EF is low IQ and really does not have a good comprehension of DNA, maybe he thought they were only comparing spit. And his mind went to "spitting on the girls." If he really is mentally challenged and doesn't realize that saliva creates DNA that can be matched to ANY fluid, he might have been afraid if any spit was found it could be pinned on him.

Just to reiterate EF’s words to his sister JM:
“I am in a lot of trouble. I am going away for a long time. I was on
that trail and that bridge with those girls when they were murdered.
There were two other people there with me when it happened. I spit
on one of the girls (after they were killed). (Emphasis added).”
FM pg 93

FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf | PDF Host

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[m00c0w]

I’m behind. She did? Where can I read them pls and thanks?

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

 

[m00c0w]

Just to reiterate EF’s words to his sister JM:
“I am in a lot of trouble. I am going away for a long time. I was on
that trail and that bridge with those girls when they were murdered.
There were two other people there with me when it happened. I spit
on one of the girls (after they were killed). (Emphasis added).”
FM pg 93

FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf | PDF Host

PDF Host read free online - FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf - ANDREW J. BALDWIN

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From your source, same page:

On two previous occasions [the sister] had denied that [EF] had made incriminating statements to her

The incriminating statement was only revealed in an interview that occurred after the “spit” interview. She previously denied any incriminating statements. At best, her own statement is impeachable by her other interviews.

JMO

 

[tlcya]

Time since death: …. Changes observed

1-2 hours: ………Early signs of lividity.
2-5 hours: ………Clear signs of lividity throughout body. Fixed in 6-10 hours
5-7 hours: ………Rigor mortis begins in face.
8-12 hours: …….Rigor mortis established throughout the body, extending to arms and legs
12 hours: ……….Body has cooled to about 25°C internally.
20-24 hours: …..Body has cooled to surrounding temperature.
24 hours: ……….Rigor mortis begins to disappear from the body in roughly the same order as it appeared.
36 hours: ……….Rigor mortis has completely disappeared.
48 hours: ……….Body discoloration shows that decomposition is beginning.
Determining Time of Death.

The presence and stage of rigor and the body's core temp play a huge factor in determining TOD. Stomach contents not so much MOO

Rigor Mortis
Immediately after death all of the muscles in the body relax. Slowly over the next 24 to 48 hours the body starts to stiffen (not contract but just lock in place) due to a buildup of acid in the muscle tissues. This stiffening process, called Rigor Mortis, has a roughly known time of occurrence and can therefore be used to estimate time of death. In general:

If the body feels warm and no rigor is present, death occurred under 3 hours before.
If the body feels warm and stiff, death occurred 3-8 hours earlier.
If the body feels cold and stiff, death occurred 8-36 hours earlier.
If the body is cold and not stiff, death occurred more than 36 hours earlier.

The use of Rigor Mortis as a time of death indicator is less than ideal because of the large spans of time it encompasses. The windows can vary by as much as 24 hours. There are also several factors that can severely impact the onset and timeline of Rigor:

* temperature
* illness
* activity before death
* physical conditions where the body are found
Death and Kinetics.

 

[susiQ]

From your source, same page:

On two previous occasions [the sister] had denied that [EF] had made incriminating statements to her

The incriminating statement was only revealed in an interview that occurred after the “spit” interview. She previously denied any incriminating statements. At best, her own statement is impeachable by her other interviews.

JMO

I imagine JM originally denied any incriminating statements due to her emotional attachment to her brother and the fact that he is intellectually impaired. Her sister MJ made the right decision when she came forward without hesitation. And no, I don’t think her mental illness affected that decision or that she merely had a sick desire to cash in on the reward funds. People with mental illness can still possess a conscience. JMHO

 

[tlcya]

I imagine JM originally denied any incriminating statements due to her emotional attachment to her brother and the fact that he is intellectually impaired. Her sister MJ made the right decision when she came forward without hesitation. And no, I don’t think her mental illness affected that decision or that she merely had a sick desire to cash in on the reward funds. People with mental illness can still possess a conscience. JMHO

IMO it is just as likely she told the truth initially and after a fight or becoming angry with her brother she told a different story?

 

[statt#1]

RA confessed, can't wait to hear it!

 

[m00c0w]

I imagine JM originally denied any incriminating statements due to her emotional attachment to her brother and the fact that he is intellectually impaired. Her sister MJ made the right decision when she came forward without hesitation. And no, I don’t think her mental illness affected that decision or that she merely had a sick desire to cash in on the reward funds. People with mental illness can still possess a conscience. JMHO

It's possible. I'm just saying that I would be more likely to believe her story about his confession if it occurred before EF was freaking out about the buccal swab.

I also find it telling that in the most recent filing, the defense chose to omit the claims of both sisters. They still included the "spit" interview, but they are no longer using the sisters' claims as evidence of third party culpability. No antlers, no jacket gift, no confessions at a time when it would be most opportune to bring it up.

My opinions.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

@Cyber sleuth

i agree they might have run out of time to make closing arguments so there was an agreement to put those in a follow up motion but i’d kind of expect that in a day or two not 2 weeks later. after all this is everything they were already prepared to say at the hearing.

it is possible it was agreed they’d get 2 weeks like you suggest.

but it seems odd to me you wouldn’t turn this around fast if you really thought you had a shot with the judge

MOO

Well lots of things the DT does is odd to me. But in this case I think they had to wait on transcripts from the hearings.
Jmo

 

[Salah11]

So is the Odins did it out at trial?

 

[MiniMoo]

Would the stress of the situation have an effect on digestion? I would this skew the timeline if so?

If that stress was to cause diarrhoea or vomiting then...yes. But I'm not a doctor or expert.

JMO

 

[photographer4]

My understanding from reports of those who attended the 3 day hearing is that there are no less than 5 instances of confession to family members via recorded phone calls. There are a number of written confessions, including at least one to the warden, to which he testified during the hearing. and then finally, there are those given first person to anyone who would listen.

I had not heard that any were recorded on video and have heard nothing about blackouts during any such confessions?

ETA nevermind, while I was typing this you clarified, thank you, I am now following what you meant.

I get ya. The thread moves quickly and it is tricky to follow as when we post we have to dart back up and sometimes they’re out of order til a page refresh…

 

[mrjitty]

Given she just ruled on the 7/30 motions today, I’d say you’re spot on. Unless the goal was to drag out her ruling on that motion even longer.

JMO

yeah. based on the words you highlighted in the last thread seems they missed the boat.

 

[m00c0w]

So is Odins did it out at trial?

No; JG just ruled that the case won't be dismissed because "exculpatory" evidence was "destroyed". In making her ruling, she stated the defense did not overcome the state's evidence that BH was cleared by police and therefore the evidence was not relevant or exculpatory.

It does indicate how she might rule regarding at least specific Odinists being brought up, unless there is something markedly more convincing than what was in the motion to dismiss.

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Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

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