Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #193

[TTF14]

Just for the record, there was no cat hair listed on the search warrant return. They did take his furry-like fiber hat, though = probably not cat hair. IMO

I wonder if either of the families had pets?

one winter gray hat with furlike fibers.
Page 12

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org

Abby had a cat. (video of it in an interview with Anna Williams - unapproved source so can't link)

The Pattys had at least one dog. BP talked about LG playing with their puppy the morning before the girls were reported to have gone to the trails. And in one interview I've seen (unapproved source so can't link) with BP, a little fluffy dog is hopping around on LG's bed.

IMO MOO

 

[photographer4]

On that day there may have been one other boy invited by the girls only he had to do farm chores or something, also, K German may have been asked to join them only she had a job to go to that afternoon.

I feel it's possible that Abby and Libby going to the trail on February 17th may not have been been about meeting someone there at all.

Did anyone else read about a boy plus K German or perhaps see it brought up in an interview.

It may have totally been unplanned - eg: they could even have just sent a text or a snap or whatever to say heading to the bridge and then it went from there. Very had to know what happened here.

 

[photographer4]

I agree, it's quite unbelievable and absurb that a man can want to confess so very much and yet his lawyers will not listen to him and it appears, from the recent hearings testimony, neither will some of his close family members. MO

It’s not in his best interest legally for them to entertain it. Anything he says to anyone aside his lawyers is used against him in court. They need to tell him to zip it to avoid harming his defense strategy. It’s really as simple as that imo.

 

[TTF14]

It’s not in his best interest legally for them to entertain it. Anything he says to anyone aside his lawyers is used against him in court. They need to tell him to zip it to avoid harming his defense strategy. It’s really as simple as that imo.

There is also zero evidence that RA has told his lawyers he wants to plead guilty and his lawyers won't let him.

MOOOOOOOO IMO

 

[photographer4]

I believe, IIRC, that the crime scene blood expert testified that Libby was sliced from behind and fell to her knees by the tree. Then he mentioned her hand making the mark. In my mind I thought she was probably trying to steady herself. Just the shock and agony she experienced, it's just to horrific to comprehend </3

Just wondering and jumping off your post here:
How do the lawyers go about selecting their “experts” (brackets because I’m unsure the credentials of the persons used by either side at this point). I imagine they shop around until they find someone who will say what they want them to say on the stand for the right price?

 

[MiniMoo]

There's been some discussion that autopsy "notes" were mentioned at the hearings and not "report." What the difference is, I'm not sure. Either way, no body temperature taken seems like a grave oversight. Or it just wasn't reported on for some reason.

IMO MOO

Serrated knife was also mentioned as a part of the autopsy report.

Im not sure if a copy of it was there or not or just notes were being referred to according to what you found out, but that Autopsy Report will sure be in the trial.

 

[justtrish]

Thanks. Sometimes visual images sure make a difference.

Well I can't edit my post now, but I'll respond to your comment to add a video that shows the terrain and the crime scene tape is still up in the area of where the girls were found.

 

[photographer4]

I believe, IIRC, that the crime scene blood expert testified that Libby was sliced from behind and fell to her knees by the tree. Then he mentioned her hand making the mark. In my mind I thought she was probably trying to steady herself. Just the shock and agony she experienced, it's just to horrific to comprehend </

Ok, I haven’t heard / seen the testimony you’re talking about, so just wondering, does this mean the F thing on the tree (F or bloody handprint depending on which side you’re on)… was well lower than LG would have stood if she were upright? The way you wrote that it sounds like the order of events was: she was cut along back of neck, she fell to her knees, then grabbed the tree to steady herself. If that is the case, I’d like to know, how high up the tree was the marking? I’d expect it to be lower than her head height. If she were standing.

I imagine the forensics revealed a fair bit about the manner of neck wounds. The direction of the blade (skyward or ground facing), long way or poke style as well as the height of the weapon weirder at the time of the wound creation and the direction he went in with the weapon (left to right or right to left eg.https://instars-ojs-tamu.tdl.org/instars/index.php/instars/article/view/264

 

[MiniMoo]

It’s not in his best interest legally for them to entertain it. Anything he says to anyone aside his lawyers is used against him in court. They need to tell him to zip it to avoid harming his defense strategy. It’s really as simple as that imo.

I think RA's confessions are more harmful than placing himself at the trail. 61+ confessions is not normal.

It's definitely a problem for the DT that is for sure.

 

[photographer4]

Day 3 Hearing:

No time of death was established nor were temperature readings done on the girls bodies apparently which isn't good for the PT or State.

61 confessions isn't favourable for RA or the DT.

Seems there is no time of death.

What the what? This is outrageous!! Is that not one of the first things a medical examiner does at the scene?? A temperature on both bodies? So outraged, I did some research and found this: https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles/167568.pdf

On page 11, I was shocked to learn that: “There is no ‘system’ of death investigation that covers the more than 3,000 jurisdictions in this country. No nationally accepted guidelines or standards of practice exist for individuals responsible for performing death scene investigations. No professional degree, license, certification or minimum education requirements exist, nor is there a commonly accepted training curriculum. Not even a common job title exists for the thousands of people who routinely perform death investigations in this country.”.

The link goes on to explain what they believe the steps to a crime scene investigation should be - in great detail, photographs and assessing the scene of course are first, and then temperature is listed as well. I am SHOCKED that this was the case in 2011 - that there were no standards or even an education requirement!??!

Further research on this topic for Indiana shows that as of May 2024: Indiana Coroner/Medical Examiner Laws

This is really not what I expected!!

 

[photographer4]

Libby’s phone counted steps, so the fact they didn’t count any more steps after a specific time point would indicate they were deceased. I am positive the Prosecution will be able to show she was incredibly active by the steps on her phone for that to cease that afternoon.

Then add in RA being seen walking back to his car muddy and bloody. It would also indicate that he had murdered them by that point. IMHO

If RA also had his phone on him - which he apparently did given he was watching the stock ticker per his own statement… then wouldn’t his phone also show some sort of movement? Direction? Steps taken… for this day?

In their search warrant, did LE find the phone he told DD he had been using that day? If not, that is a problem for the State, no?

 

[photographer4]

I think RA's confessions are more harmful than placing himself at the trail. 61+ confessions is not normal.

It's definitely a problem for the DT that is for sure.

It’s a problem alright! And I’m curious to see how they will navigate around and through these. I wonder if they will give each juror a chart that shows when the statements were made, to whom, and whether he’d had disclosure yet or not, medications etc etc etc….

 

[Trebor5591]

The D is going to lose all credibility if the best they can do is make accusations of corruption, fraud and lax investigations without any proof, while ignoring the evidence mounting against their own client. JMO

No they are not going to lost credibility, because it's the defense counsel's job to poke holes in the prosecution's case. Lot's of folks seem upset that defense counsel is trying to do just that.

You says there is no proof of lax investigations, but there surely is proof. How about LE erasing most of the interviews due to "human error"? How about LE losing RA's first interview for 5 whole years? How about LE not photographing the bullet found on the ground between Libby and Abby's bodies? etcetera.

RA is probably guilty but nobody is claiming that LE covered themselves with glory in this case, IMO.

 

[MiniMoo]

Well I can't edit my post now, but I'll respond to your comment to add a video that shows the terrain and the crime scene tape is still up in the area of where the girls were found.

I wonder how long after the murders this was filmed as there are lots of leaves on the ground and it doesn't seem like it is Spring or Summer.

That area seems to be on a slope as when he walks it is downward just not steep unless we aren't shown that, also, through the trees he seems to be treading carefully so obviously there are parts that are uneven or dip. When he stands and talks it seems he could be on a slight angle although some of those trees in the background are doing their own thing - some are quite spindly like vines.

Thanks for a glimpse of the terrain.

 

[photographer4]

The D's own FM says

Page 32 of the Franks memo, footnote 22 states: Jerry Holeman testified in his deposition that investigators estimated the time of death as occurring somewhere between 2:30 and 3:30 p.m. (Holeman depo., p. 17, lines 6-21).

After finding out about the lack of actual educational requirements to be a medical examiner (2011: https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles/167568.pdf) I’d really like to know WHO investigated this, and what (if any) their qualifications were? I wonder if by 2017 there was a standard practice? Standard rules about education requirements etc? I don’t think there was given that in 2024: Indiana Coroner/Medical Examiner Laws it seems only a 40 hour training course is required….

 

[sunshineray]

Maybe. But not a violation of a gag order as so many have asserted. Maybe it’s time to consider whether the gag order itself is ethical considering a man has wasted away in prison, not jail, prison coming up on two years now. mooooo

Obviously, to me, a gag order was and is needed, otherwise the case would be even more in the engine of SM affecting prospective jurors. The Due Process Gang made it clear, to me, that was the DT's plan from the start and at present also.
I view that as an unethical mindset and damaging to the system of justice. AJMO

 

[photographer4]

To be fair, half of the theories about uninvolved players here are also “defamatory”.

I’d love for the SODDI guys to claim defamation - because in order for them to win, wouldn’t they then have to prove the D was wrong and / lying? Not a lawyer, so genuine question here.

 

[sunshineray]

It’s not in his best interest legally for them to entertain it. Anything he says to anyone aside his lawyers is used against him in court. They need to tell him to zip it to avoid harming his defense strategy. It’s really as simple as that imo.

It's also as simple as that for defense lawyers to do what their client wants. Either that or have him declared incompetent to make decisions. They work for him, not for themselves. MO

 

[MiniMoo]

What the what? This is outrageous!! Is that not one of the first things a medical examiner does at the scene?? A temperature on both bodies? So outraged, I did some research and found this: https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles/167568.pdf

On page 11, I was shocked to learn that: “There is no ‘system’ of death investigation that covers the more than 3,000 jurisdictions in this country. No nationally accepted guidelines or standards of practice exist for individuals responsible for performing death scene investigations. No professional degree, license, certification or minimum education requirements exist, nor is there a commonly accepted training curriculum. Not even a common job title exists for the thousands of people who routinely perform death investigations in this country.”.

The link goes on to explain what they believe the steps to a crime scene investigation should be - in great detail, photographs and assessing the scene of course are first, and then temperature is listed as well. I am SHOCKED that this was the case in 2011 - that there were no standards or even an education requirement!??!

Further research on this topic for Indiana shows that as of May 2024: Indiana Coroner/Medical Examiner Laws

This is really not what I expected!!

Telling you now I didn't expect to learn this either and am still processing it really.

I just don't get it as it wasn't like the girls were found months or years later - they were both found in less than 24 hours.

 

[sunshineray]

Ok, I haven’t heard / seen the testimony you’re talking about, so just wondering, does this mean the F thing on the tree (F or bloody handprint depending on which side you’re on)… was well lower than LG would have stood if she were upright? The way you wrote that it sounds like the order of events was: she was cut along back of neck, she fell to her knees, then grabbed the tree to steady herself. If that is the case, I’d like to know, how high up the tree was the marking? I’d expect it to be lower than her head height. If she were standing.

I imagine the forensics revealed a fair bit about the manner of neck wounds. The direction of the blade (skyward or ground facing), long way or poke style as well as the height of the weapon weirder at the time of the wound creation and the direction he went in with the weapon (left to right or right to left eg.https://instars-ojs-tamu.tdl.org/instars/index.php/instars/article/view/264

It's at this link, the blood expert Cisero, I believe...Part 3.

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