Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #193

[Cyber sleuth]

OK, thank you. I will admit I'm wrong that LE has "never said that." With all of the other evidence, though, I maintain I don't think that's iron clad and there's a huge possibility it's not correct, in my opinion. There is no established time of death.

Looking forward to the trial to learn exactly why they think that.

This is my opinion.

IMO MOO

Your opinion is valid. Defense is certainly running with it.
I look forward to seeing the evidence at trial ( or rather hearing about it second hand).
While I wouldn’t be shocked if there isn’t an exact time of death for both girls. I would; however, expect there to be range provided by the medical examiner.
Until then we will continue to guess and comb the motions for morsels that point one way or the other.
JMO

 

[mrjitty]

Maybe RA's family and his two sets of attorneys believe he's innocent because they know where he was at the time of the murders. Maybe he just can't prove it; it doesn't mean he doesn't have an alibi.

doesn’t alibi evidence have to be notified?

i know in some jurisdictions that is the case. maybe someone can confirm.

 

[susiQ]

For starters, the defense has only claimed that BH and RL look like BG. That, in and of itself is telling. Second, I’m not sure who RAbr is, but the defense is not trying to claim whoever that may be has third party culpability. At least, they are not any longer if they once were.

As far as PW, he’s a foot taller than RA according to MyCase. I don’t see him being mistaken for BG as a 6’4” dude, nor height estimates being off by that much.

The defense does not say that JM had anything to do with the murders, just that he introduced EF to BH.

As far as I understand it, EF has a very distinct accent and the defense has also never claimed he looks like BG.

The defense went to great lengths to show how RA could not have possibly done so much at the crime scene, so I think it would also be self-defeating for them to claim that RL actually did all of the stuff the guy half his age couldn’t theoretically do.

They only say 2 folks look similar to BG. One is deceased, was 70-something and had an alibi. The other, they also concede has an alibi.

They’re starting to paint themselves into a corner.

Mostly my opinions.

The defence referenced TH’s statement that JM used her car around that time to visit with his Vinlander friends in Delphi and when he returned what looked like blood was smeared down the side and it took a number of washes to get it off. May mean nothing, may mean something. JMHO
Pg18 FM

FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf | PDF Host

PDF Host read free online - FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf - ANDREW J. BALDWIN

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[FrostedGlass]

Yes I've seen that list before. IIRC some of it was even touched on at the hearings? Surprising with all that supposedly happening with RA that his lawyers didn't consider having him evaluated. MO

I just posted this a little while ago but I'll gladly do it again. My understanding is they sent him to Westville because that was the prison of choice for medical treatment.

Shocking Details Of Delphi Murders And Suspect’s Health Revealed In Documents

The newly unsealed documents provide insight into what investigators found at the crime scene as well as their interactions with Richard Allen before and after his arrest.

www.huffpost.com

Prosecutors said that they had considered “involuntary medication” to treat Allen’s symptoms, but two psychiatrists and a psychologist had allegedly deemed it unnecessary, and they also felt it wasn’t necessary to move him to another facility with a psychiatric unit.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

For starters, the defense has only claimed that BH and RL look like BG. That, in and of itself is telling. Second, I’m not sure who RAbr is, but the defense is not trying to claim whoever that may be has third party culpability. At least, they are not any longer if they once were.

As far as PW, he’s a foot taller than RA according to MyCase. I don’t see him being mistaken for BG as a 6’4” dude, nor height estimates being off by that much.

The defense does not say that JM had anything to do with the murders, just that he introduced EF to BH.

As far as I understand it, EF has a very distinct accent and the defense has also never claimed he looks like BG.

The defense went to great lengths to show how RA could not have possibly done so much at the crime scene, so I think it would also be self-defeating for them to claim that RL actually did all of the stuff the guy half his age couldn’t theoretically do.

They only say 2 folks look similar to BG. One is deceased, was 70-something and had an alibi. The other, they also concede has an alibi.

They’re starting to paint themselves into a corner.

Mostly my opinions.

BBM
PW and RL- I can never imagine them being described by witnesses as “not tall”. Jmo
EF- really has no ties to Odinism from what I have seen presented. Also per all the defense motions EF’s phone was being used in his home at 7:30pm on the 13th so then if you move the timeline back he now has an alibi.
I just can’t seem to figure out any way this group fit. I am guessing this is the same issue TC and KM had.
All my opinion

 

[FrostedGlass]

doesn’t alibi evidence have to be notified?

i know in some jurisdictions that is the case. maybe someone can confirm.

I don't know what they do with alibis that they can't prove.

 

[MiniMoo]

I just posted this a little while ago but I'll gladly do it again. My understanding is they sent him to Westville because that was the prison of choice for medical treatment.

Shocking Details Of Delphi Murders And Suspect’s Health Revealed In Documents

The newly unsealed documents provide insight into what investigators found at the crime scene as well as their interactions with Richard Allen before and after his arrest.

www.huffpost.com

Prosecutors said that they had considered “involuntary medication” to treat Allen’s symptoms, but two psychiatrists and a psychologist had allegedly deemed it unnecessary, and they also felt it wasn’t necessary to move him to another facility with a psychiatric unit.

Seems Wala wanted RA sent to a correctional facility in New Castle that had Psychiatric care - her request was denied.

 

[steeltowngirl]

doesn’t alibi evidence have to be notified?

i know in some jurisdictions that is the case. maybe someone can confirm.

Yep.
IC 35-36-4
Chapter 4. Notice of Alibi Defense

2023 Indiana Code :: Title 35. Criminal Law and Procedure :: Article 36. Pretrial Notices, Motions, and Procedures :: Chapter 4. Notice of Alibi Defense

Justia Free Databases of US Laws, Codes & Statutes

law.justia.com

 

[TTF14]

Yes I've seen that list before. IIRC some of it was even touched on at the hearings? Surprising with all that supposedly happening with RA that his lawyers didn't consider having him evaluated. MO

When you say "evaluated," what do you mean exactly? Is there a specific diagnostic tool you're referring to that Dr. Wala wasn't using? A specific test or certification or something? IANAP and have never worked in a prison (or been there), so maybe when you say evaluation you mean something very specific. He was under the care of mental health professionals, and I would assume that comes with some sort of evaluation.

IMO MOO

 

[steeltowngirl]

I don't know what they do with alibis that they can't prove.

Witness testimony would be admissible.

 

[Salah11]

RA said he was on his phone out on the trails so therefore his phone should tell that same story.

He admitted he was out there between 1.30-3.30pm and so his phone wouldn’t lie.

imo

 

[susiQ]

Witness testimony would be admissible.

But that is @FrostedGlass ‘s point. There isn’t a witness. How can one prove an alibi if there is NO witness. He was home alone. KA at work. Maybe he didn’t have the phone he had in 2017 in 2022? Are there any phone records available? If not, they cannot prove his alibi. The question is, can the P disprove what RA has said, that he returned home after leaving the trails at 1:30 pm. Can the P put him at the trails during the alleged time of the murders? JMO

 

[Arkay]

Perhaps it has nothing to do with the deaths and more to do with the killer or “helper” taking LG’s phone from her and powering it off??

IMO, I can see perhaps in the frenzy of a double murder, the killer may have overlooked Abby’s phone.

What I can’t imagine is a killer suddenly remembering that one of the victims had a phone, going back later to find it (as everyone knows it’s a treasure trove of info), finding it and then turning it off and LEAVING IT THERE. That makes no sense to me. Why wouldn’t he take it and destroy it or throw it away somewhere far away?

Even without knowing that Libby had recorded him, everyone in the 21st century knows that a phone is a tracker of everything.

Jmo

 

[TTF14]

IMO, I can see perhaps in the frenzy of a double murder, the killer may have overlooked Abby’s phone.

What I can’t imagine is a killer suddenly remembering that one of the victims had a phone, going back later to find it (as everyone knows it’s a treasure trove of info), finding it and then turning it off and LEAVING IT THERE. That makes no sense to me. Why wouldn’t he take it and destroy it or throw it away somewhere far away?

Even without knowing that Libby had recorded him, everyone in the 21st century knows that a phone is a tracker of everything.

Jmo

Could have been part of staging the scene/murder. The killer(s) wanted evidence on there to be found?

IMO MOO theory

 

[m00c0w]

The State has to first prove "BG" is even RA, and I think that's going to be a tough hill to climb since it looks nothing like him, IMO.

The defense team's stance about BH is way deeper than "BH looks like BG." They haven't even asserted that from what I can recall. We recently learned several people who called tips in thought that, but the defense team has never said that "BH is 'BG' because he looks more like 'BG" than RA does."

JMO

I’m specifically speaking in the context of BG. The prosecution believes that RA is BG. RA and witnesses put him on the bridge. The defense has to come up with some sort of defense against this. So far, their only real assertion towards BG is that several people tipped BH in as being BG (and I was pretty sure the defense said he looked like BG at some point, but I could be mistaken and there’s just an implication). However, they undermine this by conceding BH has an alibi and then moving the time that they allege BH had involvement.

So they still have to come up with some sort of an answer for how RA isn’t the guy on the bridge with the gun that kidnapped the children. I believe that will be an extremely uphill battle without an alternate party given his own admissions (time + place + clothing) and witness testimony, especially without an alibi.

All my opinion.

 

[susiQ]

IMO, I can see perhaps in the frenzy of a double murder, the killer may have overlooked Abby’s phone.

What I can’t imagine is a killer suddenly remembering that one of the victims had a phone, going back later to find it (as everyone knows it’s a treasure trove of info), finding it and then turning it off and LEAVING IT THERE. That makes no sense to me. Why wouldn’t he take it and destroy it or throw it away somewhere far away?

Even without knowing that Libby had recorded him, everyone in the 21st century knows that a phone is a tracker of everything.

Jmo

I don’t think the killer “suddenly remembered” LG had a phone. Possibly he did not realize she got any video? After the 18 minutes of movement post video, he took it from her and shut it down, never knowing that she captured a video of him, or an accomplice. I definitely do not believe he didn’t know she had one and therefore there was no overlooking it. The killer was likely well aware that these kids don’t go anywhere without their phone. JMHO

 

[Salah11]

How did RA manage to leave the trails before he even arrived?!

The juvenile girls saw him, and he saw them from the descriptions. So he was going towards the Bridge at 1.30pm.

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org

 

[FrostedGlass]

Could have been part of staging the scene/murder. The killer(s) wanted evidence on there to be found?

IMO MOO theory

If the phone would have been found under her leg by itself, I would go with the idea that those were L's jeans and it fell out of the pocket when A was redressed. But then, there is the shoe that is sitting on top of the phone and I just have a hard time with being coincidental.

 

[sunshineray]

I just posted this a little while ago but I'll gladly do it again. My understanding is they sent him to Westville because that was the prison of choice for medical treatment.

Shocking Details Of Delphi Murders And Suspect’s Health Revealed In Documents

The newly unsealed documents provide insight into what investigators found at the crime scene as well as their interactions with Richard Allen before and after his arrest.

www.huffpost.com

Prosecutors said that they had considered “involuntary medication” to treat Allen’s symptoms, but two psychiatrists and a psychologist had allegedly deemed it unnecessary, and they also felt it wasn’t necessary to move him to another facility with a psychiatric unit.

I believe he was sent to Westville for safe keeping and yes they had better medical health available than other facilities. If two psychiatrists and a psychologist deemed medication (I would assume that means mind altering drugs) unnecessary it would seem all 3 thought RA to be of sound mind. Did these observations happen before, during or after RA confessed over 60 times? It would seem the man knew what a guilt statement was and repeatedly, to many different people including his wife and mother, offered them up willingly and certainly not while on mind meds. MO

 

[m00c0w]

I do not agree with this - I don’t care that BG was there if I’m his lawyer. I care only that I show that my client wasn’t the guy at that end of the bridge. He didn’t go out across the bridge. How I do this is by creating reasonable doubt. EG: TL saw some guy by the mail box earlier that day who officer Purdy thought looked like EF (franks 1). Why would they try to explain away the video evidence that Bridge Guy was the guy who took the kids? there is a video of him saying G,DTH… It would not make sense for them to try this.

Well, you do care that BG was there if the accusation is RA was BG, and witnesses (and himself) put RA as the only male on the bridge around the time of the kidnappings. That’s absolutely going to be a concern.

TL can point at a dude that looks like EF all they want, but what matters is BG. And not even the defense is claiming that EF was BG.

If the accusation is that RA is BG, he admits to wearing the same clothing as BG, puts himself in the same area at the same time, and all of this is corroborated by witnesses… you (as the hypothetical attorney) should absolutely be concerned about BG and how your client can’t provide an alternate explanation for someone being on the bridge.

Even RA didn’t see another man that he could shift blame to.

All my opinions.