Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #194

[sunshineray]

I'm of the opinion RA knew the lay of that ground like it was his own. I think he'd been all over those woods, that bottom land, along the creek....probably hunting it, fishing, etc. I don't find it in any way curious that the CS is where it is.

I'd even wager there's a good chance that the woods had several established trails down in that bottom land, where folks would reach the creek from the bridge. I imagine all sorts of activity in that area over the years....smokin' weed, drinkin', campin' overnight, fishing, hunting, etc.

I've studied photos of the area, of the crime scene, video's of the cemetery, the old quarry there on the hill, the path down the hill from that side....etc. etc. It's a typical wooded area along a stream, nothing more, nothing less.

Depressions aren't unusual in those areas, the course of the stream changes over years, and/or flooding carves out channels here and there, washout from high water, all sorts of stuff.

I'd expect testimony involving the exact path the girls and the killer took from the end of the bridge to the crime scene, very likely including evidence of movement through the woods, disturbed ground, possible foot prints, maybe even photo proof of exactly where they crossed the creek and where they went up the bank on the other side. It really wouldn't be terribly difficult to track/discover where that happened. I wouldn't be surprised to see boot/shoe prints brought in to testimony.

I think BG/RA marched them down the hill, across the driveway, down another small hill, across an already established trail to the creeks edge, across the creek at a shallow point, up the other side, a short distance thereafter, all familiar territory to him, and murdered them right there. I see no evidence of any sinister planning for a ritualistic murder in broad daylight by either BG/RA or anyone else for that matter. Simple. Keepin' it simple here.

He then in haste tried to cover 'em up, and fled up the hill using the woods as detection protection, ultimately out on to the road, jumped in his car and drove away.

Sure, I see the timeline as being important, but I also think a whole host of other evidence will be presented, some unknown to the public at this time.

You're right about RA being familiar with the trails. His defense team said so in their press release...

"Rick contacted the police to let them know that he had walked on the trail that day, as he often did."

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...IQFnoECBgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2aueqhplqp4iw1HguoSHun

 

[susiQ]

I read a quote on here somewhere that Libby fought back...

I read similar, but according to RL’s search warrant, as posted by @Vaderman, it appears the quote is not based on fact. Perhaps just someone’s assumption? JMO

 

[sunshineray]

I didn't think either girls struggled?

From the search warrant for Ron Logan, bullet #7:
LG and AW had no visible signs of a struggle or fight".
Link to Search Warrant

In the recent hearings blood expert Cicero testified that by the tree Libby's neck was slash from behind, she fell to her knees and he interpreted the "F rune" as Libby's hand reaching out to that tree, for some kind of support, leaving that mark on it in her own blood. He then said Libby was also dragged through her own numerous pools of blood from the tree back to where Abby lay, being placed beside her there.

That scenario leads me to believe she was probably trying, however weakly from injuries she may have already sustained, to get away...putting up resistance to being killed. Heartbreaking MO

 

[sunshineray]

He had one in his pocket from working in a retail store/opening boxes/stocking shelves?

Or it wasn't true and just another fabricated "confession" (like shooting the girls in the back).

IMO MOO

What about the gun? Did he feel unsafe walking on the trails he often did, according to his DT (link is in my last post above)? Did he have a carry permit I wonder?

 

[Arkay]

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2022/11/Probable-Cause-Affidavit-Richard-Allen.pdf

The PCA actually has good details about what is on Libby's video.

Thank you for providing this, @justtrish, so we don’t have to search for it again.

The highlighted portion below has always been a clincher for me.

RA admits the bullet is from his gun. He has, in his OWN WORDS, “no explanation” for how the bullet ended up at the crime scene. He declares he never loaned the gun to anyone.

Of course, we’ve been informed since RA was uncovered as the suspect, that the unspent round also was found lying between the desecrated corpses of Abby and Libby.

IMO, what makes sense here? Common sense?

That a bullet in RA’s home, from a gun in RA’s home, found lying betwixt the bodies of the victims, would miraculously wind up perched at the scene all by itself? Did it ricochet itself out of where it was stored, into RA’s gun at home, cycle itself through the gun and then levitate itself to the scene where two murdered girls were found, and then nestle itself between them before their bodies were removed?

Or, instead, did the man who owned the gun bring it with him and accidentally dropped a bullet at the scene, himself?

The girls are overheard saying he had a gun, even if he may have used it just to control them simultanously before he cut them to death.

IMO

 

[Cyber sleuth]

He had one in his pocket from working in a retail store/opening boxes/stocking shelves?

Or it wasn't true and just another fabricated "confession" (like shooting the girls in the back).

IMO MOO

Personally I think it would be strange to bring a tool from work on a hike on my day off.
Unless he came directly from work or he wears dirty pants I’m not sure how he would have a tool in his pocket. JMO
Even more at odds if he felt the need to carry two weapons on an afternoon walk did not bring his phone on his person. IMO
My opinion is he brought the weapons intentionally and left his phone intentionally; and it had nothing to do with coyotes.

 

[sunshineray]

I read similar, but according to RL’s search warrant, as posted by @Vaderman, it appears the quote is not based on fact. Perhaps just someone’s assumption? JMO

I think it originated from texts...this is just one of recent mentions of them...

"The admission was seen in texts from someone on the scene that later leaked online, also claiming 'whoever did it targeted Libby for sure', and that the 14-year-old 'fought like hell.' "

Delphi murders thrown into question by shocking new probe into deaths

A shocking new probe into the Delphi murders has raised doubt over the suspect charged with the brutal double-slaying of Libby German and Abby Williams in 2017 that shocked a nation.

www.google.com

 

[TTF14]

Personally I think it would be strange to bring a tool from work on a hike on my day off.
Unless he came directly from work or he wears dirty pants I’m not sure how he would have a tool in his pocket. JMO
Even more at odds if he felt the need to carry two weapons on an afternoon walk did not bring his phone on his person. IMO
My opinion is he brought the weapons intentionally and left his phone intentionally; and it had nothing to do with coyotes.

I don't wash my jeans every time I wear them. I don't keep a box cutter in my pocket, but I do keep lip balm in my pocket and always forget to take it out. I would see nothing unusual at all about someone having a box cutter in their pocket.

IMO MOO

 

[Arkay]

I don't wash my jeans every time I wear them. I don't keep a box cutter in my pocket, but I do keep lip balm in my pocket and always forget to take it out. I would see nothing unusual at all about someone having a box cutter in their pocket.

IMO MOO

I forget items too at times, but IMO a personal item, yours or mine, like lip balm is not the same as a box cutter.

We own our personal items and may need them at any time.

A box-cutter is RA’s work-related item. It should never have been in his pocket or been removed from the store. It’s not an insignificant item and he could’ve cut himself accidentally carrying it “forgetfully” in his pocket. Box cutters are what the 9/11 hijackers used and an innocent person should be wary of having it on his person.

Even as a decades long teacher, I and my colleagues were always warned that all work-related items were not for us to take with us. Even a stick of chalk.

JMO and experience.

 

[Trebor5591]

Thank you for providing this, @justtrish, so we don’t have to search for it again.

The highlighted portion below has always been a clincher for me.

RA admits the bullet is from his gun. He has, in his OWN WORDS, “no explanation” for how the bullet ended up at the crime scene. He declares he never loaned the gun to anyone.

Of course, we’ve been informed since RA was uncovered as the suspect, that the unspent round also was found lying between the desecrated corpses of Abby and Libby.

IMO, what makes sense here? Common sense?

That a bullet in RA’s home, from a gun in RA’s home, found lying betwixt the bodies of the victims, would miraculously wind up perched at the scene all by itself? Did it ricochet itself out of where it was stored, into RA’s gun at home, cycle itself through the gun and then levitate itself to the scene where two murdered girls were found, and then nestle itself between them before their bodies were removed?

Or, instead, did the man who owned the gun bring it with him and accidentally dropped a bullet at the scene, himself?

The girls are overheard saying he had a gun, even if he may have used it just to control them simultanously before he cut them to death.

IMO

View attachment 527334

It really bothers me that LE is so confident in saying that the unfired round supposedly found between Libby and Abby's bodies comes from RA's gun, based on the "tool marks" left on the .40 cal round made by the guns ejector. From what I understand, tool mark identification is by no means accepted science. The science behind tool mark analysis is all funded by government law enforcement and so it tends to support the conclusions law enforcement wants to hear.

https://illinoislawreview.org/wp-content/ilr-content/articles/2011/1/Giannelli.pdf

Additionally, I believe there was no photograph of the round as it was found at the crime scene. So isn't this also a problem?

Additionally, from what I recall, the round was not found when the crime scene was still closed and controlled--it was found 3 days later after the crime scene was "released". Isn't this another problem?

LE asserting this round came from RA's pistol is an overreach on LE's part. in my opinion, and I feel that the defense will have no problems poking holes in this supposed link to RA.

I can't provide links so all of the above is JMO. Thankfully RA "confessed" to the crime numerous times (or so prison officials say) so even if the round is excluded, there should be enough to convict RA of the murders.

JMO

 

[m00c0w]

It really bothers me that LE is so confident in saying that the unfired round supposedly found between Libby and Abby's bodies comes from RA's gun, based on the "tool marks" left on the .40 cal round made by the guns ejector. From what I understand, tool mark identification is by no means accepted science. The science behind tool mark analysis is all funded by government law enforcement and so it tends to support the conclusions law enforcement wants to hear.

https://illinoislawreview.org/wp-content/ilr-content/articles/2011/1/Giannelli.pdf

Additionally, there was no photograph of the round as it was found at the crime scene. So isn't this also a problem?

Additionally, from what I recall, the round was not found when the crime scene was still closed and controlled--it was found 3 days later after the crime scene was "released". Isn't this another problem?

LE asserting this round came from RA's pistol is an overreach on LE's part. in my opinion, and I feel that the defense will have no problems poking holes in this supposed link to RA.

I can't provide links so all of the above is JMO. Thankfully RA "confessed" to the crime numerous times (or so prison officials say) so even if the round is excluded, there should be enough to convict RA of the murders.

JMO

Perhaps there have been advancements in the science over the last 14 years since that article came out?

MOO

 

[katydid23]

I still find it baffling that RA was able to do all that was done to commit these crimes, to get two teenage girls under his control to such an extent he got one to strip naked and the other to partially strip (I don't fully know what has been testified as to what clothes experts think Abby took off) in daylight after chasing them down a hill and making them wade across a river, I know he had a gun but he never used it and IMO both girls could have outrun him.

I think he must have held Abby at gunpoint to make Libby compliant to his demands, but at some point he had to put the gun away and get out the item he used to cut them, so at points of the crime they were not at gunpoint, he also had to let one girl go when he was attacking the other.

From things the families have said about the girls and Libby taking surreptitious video of him it shows she was aware of stranger danger and she knew immediately that something didn't feel right about the way this man appeared to her and how he was approaching them, plus RA is not imposing by his size and he didn't know if one or both of them would run away as fast as they could in different directions. Yet he somehow managed to get them both into the river and across and to comply with his demands.

I can only think the gun was the factor that meant both girls were too scared to not do as he demanded.

He may have forced one girl to tie up the other, at gunpoint. Then that one would b unable to run while he dealt with the other one?

 

[justtrish]

It really bothers me that LE is so confident in saying that the unfired round supposedly found between Libby and Abby's bodies comes from RA's gun, based on the "tool marks" left on the .40 cal round made by the guns ejector. From what I understand, tool mark identification is by no means accepted science. The science behind tool mark analysis is all funded by government law enforcement and so it tends to support the conclusions law enforcement wants to hear.

https://illinoislawreview.org/wp-content/ilr-content/articles/2011/1/Giannelli.pdf

Additionally, there was no photograph of the round as it was found at the crime scene. So isn't this also a problem?

Additionally, from what I recall, the round was not found when the crime scene was still closed and controlled--it was found 3 days later after the crime scene was "released". Isn't this another problem?

LE asserting this round came from RA's pistol is an overreach on LE's part. in my opinion, and I feel that the defense will have no problems poking holes in this supposed link to RA.

I can't provide links so all of the above is JMO. Thankfully RA "confessed" to the crime numerous times (or so prison officials say) so even if the round is excluded, there should be enough to convict RA of the murders.

JMO

I posted the PCA earlier and in that document it says the round was found between the bodies of victim 1 and victim 2. Another spot in the PCA it describes the bullet being found less than 2 feet from victim 2.

I am not sure how we would know there are no photos of the bullet or that it wasn't found when the girls were found.

They kept the bullet round a secret because that was hold back info so when they made an arrest, they could question the suspect about his weapons.. RA admits to having a gun like the one the round would have came from and a SW was obtained before he was allowed back in his house.. they found that gun and tested it. They also asked him if anyone else used that gun or had access and he said no.

This is preciously why LE holds back information so when someone is arrested and they are questioned they don't know what LE knows. RA had no idea they found a bullet there at the scene so he didn't get rid of his gun all these years.

During the trial the experts can explain how they determine it was cycled through that gun, and they will show the jury photos of the bullet between the girls and the jury can decide if they believe the science or not.

 

[katydid23]

Now I'm not sure what asphalt trail you're talking about. A map would probably help.

It seems to be a common assumption that those words were spoken as he approached them at the end of the bridge. However, that never made any sense to me because the trail doesn't end there.
If they had been on the path on the north side of the creek, I could understand why they thought the path ended.

I think the reason it's a 'common assumption' is that Libby's video shows us where they are when the audio kicks in. There was no time for them to walk back across that rickety bridge before the talking resumed.

So it is an obvious conclusion that they were right where the video showed they were when those words were spoken. IMO

 

[Arkay]

Additionally, from what I recall, the round was not found when the crime scene was still closed and controlled--it was found 3 days later after the crime scene was "released". Isn't this another problem?

That may be, but that was still long, long before RA was nabbed as the suspect. Years before.

So it isn’t as though LE planted it there to implicate RA.

Therefore it is still alarming that HIS bullet from HIS gun was found near the scene where HE said he had been walking.

JMO

I do love your quote from Ephesians.

 

[katydid23]

I read similar, but according to RL’s search warrant, as posted by @Vaderman, it appears the quote is not based on fact. Perhaps just someone’s assumption? JMO

It's hard for me to believe that Libby would not have fought back if she could. She was strong and athletic and already knew he might be dangerous from the start of the incident. The only thing that may have prevented it from the start might be that he had a gun pointed at Abby's head. IMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

It really bothers me that LE is so confident in saying that the unfired round supposedly found between Libby and Abby's bodies comes from RA's gun, based on the "tool marks" left on the .40 cal round made by the guns ejector. From what I understand, tool mark identification is by no means accepted science. The science behind tool mark analysis is all funded by government law enforcement and so it tends to support the conclusions law enforcement wants to hear.

https://illinoislawreview.org/wp-content/ilr-content/articles/2011/1/Giannelli.pdf

Additionally, I believe there was no photograph of the round as it was found at the crime scene. So isn't this also a problem?

Additionally, from what I recall, the round was not found when the crime scene was still closed and controlled--it was found 3 days later after the crime scene was "released". Isn't this another problem?

LE asserting this round came from RA's pistol is an overreach on LE's part. in my opinion, and I feel that the defense will have no problems poking holes in this supposed link to RA.

I can't provide links so all of the above is JMO. Thankfully RA "confessed" to the crime numerous times (or so prison officials say) so even if the round is excluded, there should be enough to convict RA of the murders.

JMO

Ballistic analysis on unspent bullets cycled through a gun is not junk science. It was used recently in the Murdaugh trial. Because it relies, like many forensic issues, on the opinion of the analyst, it’s always going to be contested, but it doesn’t make it illegitimate.
Group that together with the confessions and everything else, taking it all in in, in its entirety, and the prosecution has a pretty good case.

 

[sunshineray]

Now I'm not sure what asphalt trail you're talking about. A map would probably help.

It seems to be a common assumption that those words were spoken as he approached them at the end of the bridge. However, that never made any sense to me because the trail doesn't end there.
If they had been on the path on the north side of the creek, I could understand why they thought the path ended.

There area circled is the abduction side of the bridge. There's a driveway and 3 private properties, right there on that side of the bridge there's no public trail.

 

[steeltowngirl]

DELPHI, Ind. ― Delphi murder suspect Richard Allen's defense is missing the proof needed to present evidence of Odinism, ritual human sacrifices and third-party suspects in front of the jury, according to Carroll County Prosecutor Nick McLeland 's memorandum filed Monday night.
[…]

By contrast, as the August 1st hearing demonstrated," McLeland wrote in Monday night's filings, "the defense has only offered up speculation supported by conjecture and buttressed by 'what-ifs.' Without evidence, material or otherwise, that these were ritualistic murders, the defense speculates that various social media posts ... could be connected to the crime scene."

Journal & Courier

Lafayette Indiana News - The Lafayette Journal & Courier provides in-depth coverage of local news, sports, entertainment and Purdue University.

www.jconline.com

 

[TTF14]

Ballistic analysis on unspent bullets cycled through a gun is not junk science. It was used recently in the Murdaugh trial. Because it relies, like many forensic issues, on the opinion of the analyst, it’s always going to be contested, but it doesn’t make it illegitimate.
Group that together with the confessions and everything else, taking it all in in, in its entirety, and the prosecution has a pretty good case.

I didn't realize it had been used in the Murdaugh trial. I watched the whole trial, but usually ballistics stuff bores me to tears so I'm sure I zoned out. Was there an unspent round in that case? Where was it found, etc.? I'd like to rewatch the testimony if you have any clue what day it would have been on? I'm not asking you to find it for me, but if you happen to know, that would be great.