Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #195

[ClearAhead]

They did nothing

IMO it also illustrates the point made by the P that the purpose of the D’s motions is to fuel SM with the notion of ‘poor, woeful, wrongfully accused RA’ instead of presenting legal and factually sound arguments to the court in his defense.

They let RA down once again by not categorizing or specifying which confessions they sought to have dismissed so now all are allowed in.

I have no respect for attorneys who land a high profile case as public defenders and go on to try to hoodwink the public into thinking they’re working hard to defend the ‘little guy’.

MOO and JMO

 

[Vern]

Is a "precedent" only the first and only the only?

It doesn't make it right.

IMO MOO

Sorry, quoted your word from your post about this being precedent setting by Judge Gull (Edited to add: it wasn't and, in any case, it was the original Judge who granted the safekeeping Order not Gull) and about all future prisoners RBBM.

RSBM

But this is not just about RA. This is about all future pre-trial detainees who may or may not be guilty. JG gave the green light for the entire state of Indiana to house pre-trial (presumed innocent) detainees any way the State of Indiana wishes IMO. And without even being represented by an attorney IMO MOO JMO.

The precedent has been set and even, shockingly, championed! Not OK, IMO. Not even a little bit.

JMO MOO

 

[sunshineray]

rsbm

Literally nobody has suggested that.

IMO MOO

It's been stated that a potentially dangerous accused double child murderer with suicidal tendencies and psychosis should not be kept in a cell by himself and under 24-hour surveillance. It's been said he shouldn't be believed because of his mental state but it's understandable that his lawyers don't want him to be evaluated. It's also been said that the best place to put him would be a county jail with less security and mental health attention. His lawyers were asking for him to be bailed too. I was merely addressing if releasing him into the community was something being considered as acceptable? I certainly don't think it is, MO

 

[Arkay]

He seems to be doing just fine in jail, as we predicted he would all along. No need for "safekeeping" (LOL considering how he was treated!). JMO MOO IMO

I’m guessing that you and I would both feel the same, if we were completely innocent, just a small-town guy wrongfully imprisoned, we wouldn’t be doing fine in jail, either.

Even if it’s not in solitary, even if it’s not safekeeping, even if it’s not prison.

If I were 100% innocent and yet behind bars, I could never be “fine.”

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

I also think it’s impossible to relate to the number of confessions as well. One or two but over 60? During that period of time he had to have been confessing to virtually everyone he talked to!

I don’t see it as the prison’s fault at all. Instead I blame his defense team for doing nothing while they knew this long list of confessions was ongoing. They only had to obtain an independent psychological assessment which may’ve actually proven the conditions at the prison were harming his mental health.

Instead the D did nothing to stop RA from confessing, on and on.

Why? Probably because they didn’t want all his existing mental issues on record, none of which would cause a person to falsely confess to crimes they didn’t commit. MOO

Highlighted by me for emphasis.

I've seen similar thinking before and I question it.
Why do you think they did nothing?
What steps did they have to take to get an independent psychological assessment in Westville?
What could they have done to stop him from making confessions?
When did they learn about the confessions (other than what he said to his wife and mom)?

 

[sunshineray]

IMO
I don't believe they should be bailed out and never said it. I am adamantly opposed to sending a person who hasn't even had a trial yet to an Indiana state prison.

Rozzi and Baldwin were ready for trial until the judge took actions that prevented that and set the trial back for months. The P dragged his feet turning over discovery.

We can't have it both ways regarding his mental health. Either Westville was doing a good job of treating his mental issues and there was no need to go outside for more evaluation; or they weren't doing a good job and he shouldn't have been kept there.

He's now in a county jail; what changed?

You're right, can't have it both ways with RA's mental health. Either he has suicidal with depression and anxiety, intent on self harm upon arrival to prison or being imprisoned caused him to self harm, to be suicidal. His lawyers says it's both, so nothing he's ever confess can be trusted. Judge ruled, after reviewing everything put before her and much consideration, his depression and anxiety had no mitigating part in RA's confessions. AJMO

 

[AugustWest]

Pre-Trial Detainees and their being held within State Prisons in Indiana for "Safekeeping" purposes (Administrative custody vs. "Solitary Confinement). (Indiana is not the only State that allows for this either):

Lock v. Jenkins, 464 F. Supp. 541 (N.D. Ind. 1978)​

Lock v. Jenkins, 464 F. Supp. 541 (N.D. Ind. 1978) case opinion from the US District Court for the Northern District of Indiana

law.justia.com

I like that the link provides the law and the description of those Pre-Trial Detainees, their conditions etc while being held at State facilities.

As well, as per the MS Three Day hearings, it was testified to under oath that RA was also afforded other accomodations during his pre-trial detention at State. For example: he was afforded family visits in a private room (with one staff present for security purposes) for longer visitations than were afforded to convicted prisoners. He had the tablet, until he broke his, from which he could communicate and call anyone at any time etc ... He certainly was not held in Solitary Confinement.

Did you Shepardize this? It may not be valid anymore on the point of law you are making. This case is from 1978 and has been superseded by other case law on at least 2 occasions:

Lock v. Jenkins (1981)

Lock v. Jenkins, 641 F. 2d 488 - Court of Appeals, 7th Circuit 1981 - Google Scholar

scholar.google.co.in

Laster v. Duckworth (1983)

Laster v. Duckworth, 554 F. Supp. 1184 - Dist. Court, ND Indiana 1983 - Google Scholar

scholar.google.co.in

ETA: Shepardizing definition:

Shepard's Citations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[TTF14]

I was merely addressing if releasing him into the community was something being considered as acceptable? I certainly don't think it is, MO

Oh.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

No one has said they saw another man, of similar appearance and similar apparel, on that bridge around that time. “Indiana men’s uniform” or no.

Snipped for focus.
Not only did no one see another man during that time. The 4 juveniles ( 3 being cited on the PCA) were on the trails during the time period RA later adapted his time (12-1:30pm) and never saw him until they were leaving and he was entering.
They did not see him at all during their time on the trails preceding their encounter when he was seen entering the trails near Freedkm Bridge around 1:30pm. In fact he was the only man they saw during the lengthy period they were on the trail. They also stated he matched the man in LG’s video.
They entered the trails near Freedom Bridge walked to MHB and took a picture at 12:47pm of the bridge and then walked back to Freedom Bridge taking a picture of the bench at 1:27pm before encountering RA.
IMO He couldn’t have been walking on the trails, looking at his stock ticker and sitting on benches from 12-1:30pm and not been seen by the juvenile witnesses several times.
His 12-1:30 story is just that. A lie IMO. This is damning.
https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2022/11/Probable-Cause-Affidavit-Richard-Allen.pdf

 

[TTF14]

Snipped for focus.
Not only did no one see another man during that time. The 4 juveniles ( 3 being cited on the PCA) were on the trails during the time period RA later adapted his time (12-1:30pm) and never saw him until they were leaving and he was entering.
They did not see him at all during their time on the trails preceding their encounter when he was seen entering the trails near Freedkm Bridge around 1:30pm. In fact he was the only man they saw during the lengthy period they were on the trail. They also stated he matched the man in LG’s video.
They entered the trails near Freedom Bridge walked to MHB and took a picture at 12:47pm of the bridge and then walked back to Freedom Bridge taking a picture of the bench at 1:27pm before encountering RA.
IMO He couldn’t have been walking on the trails, looking at his stock ticker and sitting on benches from 12-1:30pm and not been seen by the juvenile witnesses several times.
His 12-1:30 story is just that. A lie IMO. This is damning.
https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2022/11/Probable-Cause-Affidavit-Richard-Allen.pdf

Yes, this is indeed what the PCA says.

 

[ClearAhead]

Highlighted by me for emphasis.

I've seen similar thinking before and I question it.
Why do you think they did nothing?
What steps did they have to take to get an independent psychological assessment in Westville?
What could they have done to stop him from making confessions?
When did they learn about the confessions (other than what he said to his wife and mom)?

A defense team petitioning the court to request to have an additional psychological assessment completed doesn’t seem out of question. At least it could be said they tried. Did we see such a motion? No, only asking for him to be moved contrary to the protective order.

Especially because the D outright alleged the prison along their Odinist guards were harming him, it makes little sense for them to have been satisfied to rely on an assessment of the psychologist employed by the same prison while he was spewing out one confession after another to anyone who would listen.

If the D sincerely believe the prison caused RA’s mental health to go off the rails IMO they did a poor job of protecting his rights. JMO

 

[sunshineray]

Oh.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

 

[justtrish]

A defense team petitioning the court to request to have an additional psychological assessment completed doesn’t seem out of question. At least it could be said they tried. Did we see such a motion? No, only asking for him to be moved contrary to the protective order.

Especially because the D outright alleged the prison along their Odinist guards were harming him, it makes little sense for them to have been satisfied to rely on an assessment of the psychologist employed by the same prison while he was spewing out one confession after another to anyone who would listen.

If the D sincerely believe the prison caused RA’s mental health to go off the rails IMO they did a poor job of protecting his rights. JMO

I think they couldn't risk an outside assessment not agreeing with their claims. It's a better look to make the claims and not have something to back it up, then it is to make the claims and then have an independent party determine that is not true.

I also think they tried to lump all the confessions together and they didn't specify which ones they wanted thrown out because they needed it to be all or nothing They know many of these confessions are specific and they can't put the details of those out there so they tried to pick apart things that were not accurate and then wanted them all out so they didn't have to address the elephant in the room. Then if none of them were tossed, they can still point out the ones they claim aren't accurate.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Yes, this is indeed what the PCA says.

Correct.
The same PCA that has been upheld by The Court.

In 20 months and 4 Franks. Defense has yet to provide one witness to RA being on the trail during his adapted time table of 12-1:30pm.
Nor have they been able to find one witness that can state that another man or men were seen on the trails between 1:47pm and 2:13pm on 2/13/17.
In fact it doesn’t appear that the defense has been able to place any person of interest in or around the crime scene or the victims from 1:47pm on the 13th until the victims were found murdered the following day IMO

I don’t know how they can proceed with a soddi defense without establishing this one simple fact.

All my opinion.

 

[TTF14]

Correct.
The same PCA that has been upheld by The Court.

In 20 months and 4 Franks. Defense has yet to provide one witness to RA being on the trail during his adapted time table of 12-1:30pm.
Nor have they been able to find one witness that can state that another man or men were seen on the trails between 1:47pm and 2:13pm on 2/13/17.
In fact it doesn’t appear that the defense has been able to place any person of interest in or around the crime scene or the victims from 1:47pm on the 13th until the victims were found murdered the following day IMO

I don’t know how they can proceed with a soddi defense without establishing this one simple fact.

All my opinion.

How would they "provide a witness" before the trial has started?

Also, maybe nobody else was on the trails from 12-1:30. Absence of evidence (in this case an eye witness) is not evidence of absence (a witness).

IMO MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

A defense team petitioning the court to request to have an additional psychological assessment completed doesn’t seem out of question. At least it could be said they tried. Did we see such a motion? No, only asking for him to be moved contrary to the protective order.

Especially because the D outright alleged the prison along their Odinist guards were harming him, it makes little sense for them to have been satisfied to rely on an assessment of the psychologist employed by the same prison while he was spewing out one confession after another to anyone who would listen.

If the D sincerely believe the prison caused RA’s mental health to go off the rails IMO they did a poor job of protecting his rights. JMO

The defense has a number of ex parte motions. Could be one of those, maybe. MOO

He has experts psychiatry and psychology.
Over $1 million has been spent on the Delphi murders trial; how much more will be spent?

 

[Cyber sleuth]

The defense has a number of ex parte motions. Could be one of those, maybe. MOO

He has experts psychiatry and psychology.
Over $1 million has been spent on the Delphi murders trial; how much more will be spent?

I wonder why none of those experts were called as witnesses for the defense during their recent hearings.
Seems to me if those experts could testify to the confessions being a result of mental illness or “torture” it would have been to great benefit to their motion.
JMO

 

[TTF14]

I wonder why none of those experts were called as witnesses for the defense during their recent hearings.
Seems to me if those experts could testify to the confessions being a result of mental illness or “torture” it would have been to great benefit to their motion.
JMO

They really ran out of time on that third day. IIRC, they went until almost 9PM. Maybe in future hearings (if there even are any) or in the trial, we will hear expert testimony like that.

IMO MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

You're right, can't have it both ways with RA's mental health. Either he has suicidal with depression and anxiety, intent on self harm upon arrival to prison or being imprisoned caused him to self harm, to be suicidal. His lawyers says it's both, so nothing he's ever confess can be trusted. Judge ruled, after reviewing everything put before her and much consideration, his depression and anxiety had no mitigating part in RA's confessions. AJMO

I got the impression that he was managing his issues prior to being incarcerated. I definitely believe his confinement in Westville exacerbated them.

I'm puzzled by JG's response to his mental health. Does she refute what the prison psychologist found?
(snips from the article linked below)
"A prison psychologist who met regularly with Allen testified that she also heard Allen confess to the murders. But Dr. Monica Wala said Allen’s mental health was “extremely poor, critical and deteriorating,” and that he suffered from stress-induced psychosis at the time he made his confessions.

She also testified there was “no doubt” he had serious mental illness around that time, evidenced by Allen’s attempts to “beat his head into the wall.” "

Judge rules Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen to be moved to county jail

It is not yet known where Allen will be housed or when he will be moved to a new jail.

www.wthr.com

 

[ClearAhead]

The defense has a number of ex parte motions. Could be one of those, maybe. MOO

He has experts psychiatry and psychology.
Over $1 million has been spent on the Delphi murders trial; how much more will be spent?

His experts obviously didn’t support RA’s supposed “solitary confinement “ at the prison caused him to falsely confess because no professional opinions supporting that were mentioned in any of the D motions. It’s possible the opinions didn’t go the way they were hoped for. However somewhere along the lines it became known RA suffers from MDD. Perhaps that’s what caused the confessions and possibly a the reason for the murders so the D doesn’t want to go there? MOO

Jurors will hear Delphi murder suspect's statements allegedly admitting to the killings

Richard Allen supposedly told people while he's been in pretrial detention that he killed Libby German and Abby Williams on Feb. 13, 2017.

www.jconline.com

“While the defendant does suffer from major depressive disorder and anxiety, those are not serious mental illnesses that prevent the defendant from making voluntary statements.”