Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #195

[justtrish]

A defense team petitioning the court to request to have an additional psychological assessment completed doesn’t seem out of question. At least it could be said they tried. Did we see such a motion? No, only asking for him to be moved contrary to the protective order.

Especially because the D outright alleged the prison along their Odinist guards were harming him, it makes little sense for them to have been satisfied to rely on an assessment of the psychologist employed by the same prison while he was spewing out one confession after another to anyone who would listen.

If the D sincerely believe the prison caused RA’s mental health to go off the rails IMO they did a poor job of protecting his rights. JMO

I think they couldn't risk an outside assessment not agreeing with their claims. It's a better look to make the claims and not have something to back it up, then it is to make the claims and then have an independent party determine that is not true.

I also think they tried to lump all the confessions together and they didn't specify which ones they wanted thrown out because they needed it to be all or nothing They know many of these confessions are specific and they can't put the details of those out there so they tried to pick apart things that were not accurate and then wanted them all out so they didn't have to address the elephant in the room. Then if none of them were tossed, they can still point out the ones they claim aren't accurate.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Yes, this is indeed what the PCA says.

Correct.
The same PCA that has been upheld by The Court.

In 20 months and 4 Franks. Defense has yet to provide one witness to RA being on the trail during his adapted time table of 12-1:30pm.
Nor have they been able to find one witness that can state that another man or men were seen on the trails between 1:47pm and 2:13pm on 2/13/17.
In fact it doesn’t appear that the defense has been able to place any person of interest in or around the crime scene or the victims from 1:47pm on the 13th until the victims were found murdered the following day IMO

I don’t know how they can proceed with a soddi defense without establishing this one simple fact.

All my opinion.

 

[TTF14]

Correct.
The same PCA that has been upheld by The Court.

In 20 months and 4 Franks. Defense has yet to provide one witness to RA being on the trail during his adapted time table of 12-1:30pm.
Nor have they been able to find one witness that can state that another man or men were seen on the trails between 1:47pm and 2:13pm on 2/13/17.
In fact it doesn’t appear that the defense has been able to place any person of interest in or around the crime scene or the victims from 1:47pm on the 13th until the victims were found murdered the following day IMO

I don’t know how they can proceed with a soddi defense without establishing this one simple fact.

All my opinion.

How would they "provide a witness" before the trial has started?

Also, maybe nobody else was on the trails from 12-1:30. Absence of evidence (in this case an eye witness) is not evidence of absence (a witness).

IMO MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

A defense team petitioning the court to request to have an additional psychological assessment completed doesn’t seem out of question. At least it could be said they tried. Did we see such a motion? No, only asking for him to be moved contrary to the protective order.

Especially because the D outright alleged the prison along their Odinist guards were harming him, it makes little sense for them to have been satisfied to rely on an assessment of the psychologist employed by the same prison while he was spewing out one confession after another to anyone who would listen.

If the D sincerely believe the prison caused RA’s mental health to go off the rails IMO they did a poor job of protecting his rights. JMO

The defense has a number of ex parte motions. Could be one of those, maybe. MOO

He has experts psychiatry and psychology.
Over $1 million has been spent on the Delphi murders trial; how much more will be spent?

 

[Cyber sleuth]

The defense has a number of ex parte motions. Could be one of those, maybe. MOO

He has experts psychiatry and psychology.
Over $1 million has been spent on the Delphi murders trial; how much more will be spent?

I wonder why none of those experts were called as witnesses for the defense during their recent hearings.
Seems to me if those experts could testify to the confessions being a result of mental illness or “torture” it would have been to great benefit to their motion.
JMO

 

[TTF14]

I wonder why none of those experts were called as witnesses for the defense during their recent hearings.
Seems to me if those experts could testify to the confessions being a result of mental illness or “torture” it would have been to great benefit to their motion.
JMO

They really ran out of time on that third day. IIRC, they went until almost 9PM. Maybe in future hearings (if there even are any) or in the trial, we will hear expert testimony like that.

IMO MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

You're right, can't have it both ways with RA's mental health. Either he has suicidal with depression and anxiety, intent on self harm upon arrival to prison or being imprisoned caused him to self harm, to be suicidal. His lawyers says it's both, so nothing he's ever confess can be trusted. Judge ruled, after reviewing everything put before her and much consideration, his depression and anxiety had no mitigating part in RA's confessions. AJMO

I got the impression that he was managing his issues prior to being incarcerated. I definitely believe his confinement in Westville exacerbated them.

I'm puzzled by JG's response to his mental health. Does she refute what the prison psychologist found?
(snips from the article linked below)
"A prison psychologist who met regularly with Allen testified that she also heard Allen confess to the murders. But Dr. Monica Wala said Allen’s mental health was “extremely poor, critical and deteriorating,” and that he suffered from stress-induced psychosis at the time he made his confessions.

She also testified there was “no doubt” he had serious mental illness around that time, evidenced by Allen’s attempts to “beat his head into the wall.” "

Judge rules Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen to be moved to county jail

It is not yet known where Allen will be housed or when he will be moved to a new jail.

www.wthr.com

 

[ClearAhead]

The defense has a number of ex parte motions. Could be one of those, maybe. MOO

He has experts psychiatry and psychology.
Over $1 million has been spent on the Delphi murders trial; how much more will be spent?

His experts obviously didn’t support RA’s supposed “solitary confinement “ at the prison caused him to falsely confess because no professional opinions supporting that were mentioned in any of the D motions. It’s possible the opinions didn’t go the way they were hoped for. However somewhere along the lines it became known RA suffers from MDD. Perhaps that’s what caused the confessions and possibly a the reason for the murders so the D doesn’t want to go there? MOO

Jurors will hear Delphi murder suspect's statements allegedly admitting to the killings

Richard Allen supposedly told people while he's been in pretrial detention that he killed Libby German and Abby Williams on Feb. 13, 2017.

www.jconline.com

“While the defendant does suffer from major depressive disorder and anxiety, those are not serious mental illnesses that prevent the defendant from making voluntary statements.”

 

[mrjitty]

I wonder why none of those experts were called as witnesses for the defense during their recent hearings.
Seems to me if those experts could testify to the confessions being a result of mental illness or “torture” it would have been to great benefit to their motion.
JMO

For ome reason the defence didn’t make these arguments. perhaps they are saving it for trial. MOO

 

[Cyber sleuth]

They really ran out of time on that third day. IIRC, they went until almost 9PM. Maybe in future hearings (if there even are any) or in the trial, we will hear expert testimony like that.

IMO MOO

They wrapped their arguments regarding suppression of the confessions the morning of the 3rd day of hearings and proceeded into their soddi arguments according to this source.
https://www.newsnationnow.com/us-news/midwest/delphi-murders-ritualistic-killings-details/


Why wouldn’t they lead with their expert witnesses if they had them to support their argument?
That just doesn’t make sense to me. JMO

 

[Cyber sleuth]

For ome reason the defence didn’t make these arguments. perhaps they are saving it for trial. MOO

Why in the world would they do that. Wouldn’t they rather have had the confessions suppressed?

Another puzzling move by this dynamic duo.

 

[ClearAhead]

For ome reason the defence didn’t make these arguments. perhaps they are saving it for trial. MOO

Maybe but would seem a risky strategy, better to keep the confessions out entirely. Another reason, none of the experts concurred the prison conditions were responsible for the confessions. JMO

 

[ClearAhead]

Why in the world would they do that. Wouldn’t they rather have had the confessions suppressed?

Another puzzling move by this dynamic duo.

i think the D don’t want to wedge the door to far open regarding RA’s mental health and illness although I suspect it will become a key issue at trial. If RA’s medical history reveals a lifelong history of mental illness including a diagnosis of Major Depressive Disorder, obviously the prison did not cause it. JMO

BBM

Judge rules Delphi murder suspect’s alleged confessions can be used in trial

The special judge in the case denied a motion by Richard Allen’s attorneys to suppress more than 60 confessions he allegedly made while he was incarcerated.

www.wndu.com

Prosecutors say Allen confessed to the killings to multiple people, including his family members, prison guards, other inmates, a prison warden and a prison psychologist. His lawyers argued that he did not make the confessions voluntarily, claiming he was coerced by guards and that he was suffering from mental illness at the time.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Maybe but would seem a risky strategy, better to keep the confessions out entirely. A better reason, nobody concurred the prison conditions were responsible for the confessions. JMO

Obviously I agree. Why not throw everything you have at it so they are suppressed. No matter how you slice it the confessions are a bad look for RA. A jury isn’t going to be very sympathetic while also hearing the details of this gruesome crime and the evidence that ties RA to it.IMO
Just doesn’t align with the 4 franks motions written to toss a search warrant. If the fruits of the search are so flimsy ( as they would have us believe) then why not just attack it in front of a jury?

Are the fruits of the search warrant more damning than 61 confessions given freely? It sure makes me wonder.
All my opinion.

 

[ClearAhead]

This article is somewhat dated but I doubt anything has changed.

Purely my speculation but I wonder if RA has been watched over his entire 50 years first by his mother, then later his wife due to his depressive episodes and he came to rely on them as well.

Then came those days in Feb 2017 when he was all alone, wife out of town, he’s unhinged and on edge, goes for a walk to the bridge and…..? For me a scenario such as this is the simplest explanation of the murders to two innocent teens out for a walk on a warm February afternoon. No catfishing, no drop boxes, no third parties. JMO and MOO

[Homicide is strongly correlated to depression and not to mania] - PubMed

Typical manic episodes could be the cause of penal infractions, usually benign. In contrast, forensic studies show a close relationship between depression, suicide and homicide. Killers (16-28%) are often depressed when they commit a crime. In the UK and USA, 4-35% of killers commit suicide...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

“……. forensic studies show a close relationship between depression, suicide and homicide. Killers (16-28%) are often depressed when they commit a crime. In the UK and USA, 4-35% of killers commit suicide immediately after their crime. Assessment of a depressed patient must include an evaluation of the risk of homicide as well as the risk of suicide. The past history of depression and suicidal attempts, the presence of depressive symptoms and suicidal ideas, are good predictors of impending danger of aggression and sometimes of homicide.”

 

[mrjitty]

Why in the world would they do that. Wouldn’t they rather have had the confessions suppressed?

Another puzzling move by this dynamic duo.

I agree it seems strange.

 

[shonyakay]

I'd never heard that the FBI didn't want the ISP to do that April 2019 PC? If anything it sounded like to me that ISP Carter was saying things inspired by FBI profilers. Do you have a link to that? TIA

There was testimony regarding this from the hearings in July/August. I am looking for a link atm.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

I agree it seems strange.

TMS recently went over this decision by JG on their most recent episode. I just listened to it and found it interesting.
They point out that it was very unconventional for defense to try to suppress 61 separate confessions for being “coerced” or “involuntary”. Especially given many of his confessions were offered when the receiving party had resisted hearing them.

They said a more conventional ( and most likely effective IMO) argument for suppressing confessions would be mental duress or psychosis.

TMS theorize the defense team could not present the argument that RA confessed during psychosis because it is unfounded and false.

This would make sense to me IMO because it would explain why a highly praised defense team would file such a weak motion. JMO
The Delphi Murders: The Confessions Are In

 

[sunshineray]

I got the impression that he was managing his issues prior to being incarcerated. I definitely believe his confinement in Westville exacerbated them.

I'm puzzled by JG's response to his mental health. Does she refute what the prison psychologist found?
(snips from the article linked below)
"A prison psychologist who met regularly with Allen testified that she also heard Allen confess to the murders. But Dr. Monica Wala said Allen’s mental health was “extremely poor, critical and deteriorating,” and that he suffered from stress-induced psychosis at the time he made his confessions.

She also testified there was “no doubt” he had serious mental illness around that time, evidenced by Allen’s attempts to “beat his head into the wall.” "

Judge rules Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen to be moved to county jail

It is not yet known where Allen will be housed or when he will be moved to a new jail.

www.wthr.com

She also said, IIRC, the medication helped him and he improved. She also thought RA was then not being truthful with her about his symptoms/condition.

 

[TTF14]

TMS recently went over this decision by JG on their most recent episode. I just listened to it and found it interesting.
They point out that it was very unconventional for defense to try to suppress 61 separate confessions for being “coerced” or “involuntary”. Especially given many of his confessions were offered when the receiving party had resisted hearing them.

They said a more conventional ( and most likely effective IMO) argument for suppressing confessions would be mental duress or psychosis.

TMS theorize the defense team could not present the argument that RA confessed during psychosis because it is unfounded and false.

This would make sense to me IMO because it would explain why a highly praised defense team would file such a weak motion. JMO
The Delphi Murders: The Confessions Are In

Did they have any sources to back up their opinion about this? Neither one of them are criminal defense attorneys (and one isn't an attorney at all) so I don't know how they'd know what was unconventional or not.

IMO MOO