Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #195

[tlcya]

I am interested in how the DT will address/combat/rebut the over 60 now admissible confessions and statements implicating himself that RA has made.

Will they about face and claim their client is mentally unfit and therefore should not be believed or tried? I still don't understand why they did not at least attempt that move when trying to get the confessions thrown out. Why did they not have their client evaluated pursuant to court order by an independent third party? I feel that doing so was truly their best chance of unringing that bell, but it is too late now.

And yes, I realize Dr. Wala, the prison psych testified that he was unwell, but she isn't independent and testified under cross she had her doubts as to whether his condition was faked or overexaggerated so not as helpful to DT as it could have been IMO.

And if the ruling on the SODDI defense doesn't go their way, what then? I worry about ineffective counsel arguments on appeal the most. All their eggs were in that SODDI basket, then their client started confessing to anyone who would listen and some who refused to listen. How do they get past that if this next ruling does not go their way?

 

[ClearAhead]

First Franks memo, page 109.

View attachment 528811

This is going to be an utterly fascinating interview to read or listen to because something just does not add up.

October 13, 2022 RA is getting interviewed by LE and he claims he thought they wanted to talk to him to help assist in solving the crime. By this date the whole world knows the girls were not dropped off at the trails until after 1:30pm.

But it’s only after a whole 12 minutes into the interview that RA tells them “he probably left the trail around 1:30”. Does that make any sense? If he truly thought he was being interviewed to help assist LE solve the crime, why wouldn’t he tell them at the beginning of the interview that he was long gone before the girls even got there? And didn’t he ask, after five long years why LE was suddenly interested in him? MOO

 

[Megnut]

The State doesn't have to prove how and when RA left the area. Another murder case with a security camera aimed at the door of the crime scene showed the defendant-now-convict leaving, no video of him leaving with her body, just LE knows he did. Because it wasn't still there. Camera was probably reseting and not recording at the exact moment in question.

I personally want to know exactly when he left, how he left, why he left when he did and where he went next. Hugely I want to know when his phone showed active use that day. And when it did not. All questions the jury might want answers to, too. We/I/they just might not get every single question answered. It's not required. Not ALL doubt, beyond reasonable doubt.

I very much want to hear from RA himself, evaluate for myself how credible he might sound. How he sounds when telling a truth, how he sounds when he's being not so truthful. Good liar? Bad liar?

Where are witnesses that can place him anywhere but at the back end of the bridge at 2:13 on 2/13?

If he were innocent, that's the data most needed to exonerate/acquitted and it's not front and center in any motion we've seen.

Simple explanation. They don't have any.

His own attorneys can't get him off the bridge.

JMO

 

[ClearAhead]

IMO It all doesn't matter if they can't prove his vehicle was there at 4 pm.
Leazenby solidified the timeline in his deposition.
Page 110

Memorandum in Support of Motion for Franks Hearing.pdf

drive.google.com

The parked vehicle was not responsible for kidnapping or murdering the girls so it doesn’t have to be proven if it was parked there at 4pm. MOO

 

[Yemelyan]

MOO
Thank you. Your reply was helpful, I think.

Here's a quote from your link; so all, some or none of the gg expenses came from 2022?
"More than three quarters of those costs were logged as part of the murder investigation prior to Allen’s arrest, with only $76,000 of ISP expenses coming since 2022.'

So.. genetic genealogy testing isn't superior, it's just another avenue to take after the first one dead-ends? What would be the purpose/benefit of sending it to Quantico at the end of 2018? (Would Leazenby really have given an exclusive interview to Radar?)

Break In Indiana Teens' Murder: Cops Give More Evidence To FBI In Hunt For Killer

Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby told RadarOnline.com exclusively that they were hoping for a break in the case of Indiana teens Abigail Williams and Liberty German’s gruesome murders after they sent new evidence to the FBI headquarters in Quantico.

radaronline.com

Here are my thoughts on the investigative genetic genealogy...like all of us, I'm anxious to find out more about how it was used specifically in this case.

IMO, this is the usual sequence of events that investigators would go through if they collect a sample of DNA from an unknown subject at a crime scene:

1. Develop an STR DNA profile (including the CODIS core loci) from the sample
2. Pursue all viable investigative leads and compare with persons of interest if legally able to do so. Or, compare to CODIS. If no matches result, including from a CODIS search using the STR profile, then:
3. Develop a SNP profile from the collected sample
4. Search one or more third-party SNP public databases to identify potential genetic relatives in the databases (such as GEDMatch, where users opt in)
5. Use possible genealogical relationships to develop a person or persons or interest and transmit these leads to investigators
6. Further investigation to identify a single person of interest; obtain DNA from this person*, develop STR profile, and do a one-to-one comparison to the crime scene DA of the unknown subject
7. Person of interest is either included or excluded.

*Sometimes the next step is instead to collect DNA from close biological relatives of the person of interest in order to perform kinship analysis first before going further.

The purpose of sending a DNA sample to Quantico is that the FBI can now perform this type of analysis, up to and including the genealogical research part. This is still often done by third-party companies, but sometimes bigger LE departments have their own person who does it. Starting the genetic genealogy process for the Delphi case in 2018 would track with the timeline of investigating other leads though STR (CODIS) and striking out, then moving on to SNP.

Whereas lately violent crimes such as homicides and rapes are progressing quickly to the investigative genetic genealogy stage, it was not always this way IMO. In many jurisdictions, LE used to have to show that ALL other leads had been exhausted before pursuing it - in essence, cases had to be "cold" before this step could be approved, as it does involve a privacy concern to people who are completely uninvolved in the crime.

All my own thoughts/opinions

 

[Megnut]

This is going to be an utterly fascinating interview to read or listen to because something just does not add up.

October 13, 2022 RA is getting interviewed by LE and he claims he thought they wanted to talk to him to help assist in solving the crime. By this date the whole world knows the girls were not dropped off at the trails until after 1:30pm.

But it’s only after a whole 12 minutes into the interview that RA tells them “he probably left the trail around 1:30”. Does that make any sense? If he truly thought he was being interviewed to help assist LE solve the crime, why wouldn’t he tell them at the beginning of the interview that he was long gone before the girls even got there? And didn’t he ask, after five long years why LE was suddenly interested in him? MOO

Rbbm. "He probably left the trail around 1:30."

Probably.
About.

These are not precise words.

You know what's on the other side of "probably"? "Probably not.

So it's just as probably he probably didn't leave at about 1:30. And was still there at 2:13.

IMO it's also guilty knowledge. Shows a confidence that no crime was committed before 1:30. Sure, there were plenty of facts circulating in the ether, just as many rumors, but IMO RA inadvertently revealed he knew too much. He effectively confirmed the State's working timeline.

It's no wonder he confessed. He can't get himself off the bridge.

JMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

DD's tip narrative puts him there between 1:30 and 3:30. He puts himself there earlier.

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2022/11/Probable-Cause-Affidavit-Richard-Allen.pdf

Page 7; paragraph 1; 2nd sentence from the redacted copy of the PCA that you linked:

“Richard Allen told investigators he was on the trail from 1:30pm to 3:30pm that day.”

This PCA was written and submitted under penalty of perjury.


Edit: didn’t finish a sentence

 

[Cyber sleuth]

IMO It all doesn't matter if they can't prove his vehicle was there at 4 pm.
Leazenby solidified the timeline in his deposition.
Page 110

Memorandum in Support of Motion for Franks Hearing.pdf

drive.google.com

Well if they have witnesses that place his car there after 1:30 then there is already doubt thrown at the truthfulness of his 12-1:30pm narrative.
But where was his phone from 1:30-4pm?

*Defense has stated it wasn’t at the crime scene.

If it showed up on geofencing in that cps parking lot from 1:30-4pm going to be a big problem.

Where was RA’s phone during the time of the crime?

FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf | PDF Host

 

[TTF14]

This is going to be an utterly fascinating interview to read or listen to because something just does not add up.

October 13, 2022 RA is getting interviewed by LE and he claims he thought they wanted to talk to him to help assist in solving the crime. By this date the whole world knows the girls were not dropped off at the trails until after 1:30pm.

But it’s only after a whole 12 minutes into the interview that RA tells them “he probably left the trail around 1:30”. Does that make any sense? If he truly thought he was being interviewed to help assist LE solve the crime, why wouldn’t he tell them at the beginning of the interview that he was long gone before the girls even got there? And didn’t he ask, after five long years why LE was suddenly interested in him? MOO

"A whole 12 minutes into the interview" could be the beginning, couldn't it? It's quite subjective. Maybe they spent the first 12 minutes discussing the weather, the prior week's Colt's win against the Broncos, how he likes his coffee, or the upcoming Sheriff's election. We have no idea.

But, IMO, "12 minutes into the interview" is hardly an afterthought.

Moooooooo

 

[ClearAhead]

Rbbm. "He probably left the trail around 1:30."

Probably.
About.

These are not precise words.

You know what's on the other side of "probably"? "Probably not.

So it's just as probably he probably didn't leave at about 1:30. And was still there at 2:13.

IMO it's also guilty knowledge. Shows a confidence that no crime was committed before 1:30. Sure, there were plenty of facts circulating in the ether, just as many rumors, but IMO RA inadvertently revealed he knew too much. He effectively confirmed the State's working timeline.

It's no wonder he confessed. He can't get himself off the bridge.

JMO

Yes as the interview progressed, after almost 12 minutes had passed, he thought it’d be prudent to alter his timeline to ‘probably’ he’d left by 1:30?

I strongly believe this footnote isn’t reliable as it appears the D is providing partial information only. MOO

 

[TTF14]

If it showed up on geofencing in that cps parking lot from 1:30-4pm going to be a big problem.

rsbm

I thought NM didn't believe in geofencing.

IMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

IMO It all doesn't matter if they can't prove his vehicle was there at 4 pm.
Leazenby solidified the timeline in his deposition.
Page 110

Memorandum in Support of Motion for Franks Hearing.pdf

drive.google.com

I disagree.
Where RA’s car was at 4pm doesn’t matter at all, because we know where RA was minutes before Libby and Abby reached the bridge. According to himself, he was on the bridge.
Bolstered by witnesses, security videos, and timestamps from pictures.

 

[TTF14]

I disagree.
Where RA’s car was at 4pm doesn’t matter at all, because we know where RA was minutes before Libby and Abby reached the bridge. According to himself, he was on the bridge.
Bolstered by witnesses, security videos, and timestamps from pictures.

The State is really locked into that timeline...

IMO MOO

 

[ClearAhead]

The State is really locked into that timeline...

IMO MOO

The state is not required to prove the timeline from beginning to end in order to convict RA. Even though they’ll likely present a theory that includes a timeline, the jury will be instructed that the theory is not evidence.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Do his massive string of confessions give you any pause about his innocence? Just curious

Absolutely! I believe I've stated that many times. In fact, I was completely convinced by those confessions, until I read about him eating his feces and other details about his mental state during the time when those confessions occurred. Let's just stop and consider that for a moment. He was eating his feces. That should give everyone pause.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

The state is not required to prove the timeline from beginning to end in order to convict RA. Even though they’ll likely present a theory that includes a timeline, the jury will be instructed that the theory is not evidence.

They can't have it both ways. A timeline is a timeline, and if they're going to use testimony to place RA at a particular location at a certain time to prove he's the killer, that timeline can't just become a theory when it no longer suits them. moo

 

[justtrish]

The State is really locked into that timeline...

IMO MOO

You say locked in as if it's a bad thing. They know exactly the moment the girls were abducted because Libby recorded the act in progress. The most terrifying piece of video is the most important piece of evidence. It does give an EXACT time of abduction because it's caught on camera so if that is being "locked in" then great. LE didn't fabricate a timeline so they could frame RA. They have a video that shows exactly when the girls were abducted. RA puts himself on that bridge in that outfit and a witness saw him in that outfit on that bridge, just before she saw Abby and Libby.

The rest of this case really isn't nearly as important as that specific moment in time so if the state is locked in as you say, then that's good. There is no altering the abduction time. Whoever abducted the girls is guilty of their murder weather they actually killed them or not. So if others are involved, BG is still guilty of the crimes also. If BG left the area at 245, he's still guilty of the crime. If he parked at the cemetery vs the cps building, he's still guilty. If it wasn't BG walking on the road close to 4pm, then BG is still guilty of the murders because BG abducted them from the bridge and it really does not matter what BG did after he abducted them because as the charge is worded, he would still be guilty of murder even if all he did was abduct them.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

I am interested in how the DT will address/combat/rebut the over 60 now admissible confessions and statements implicating himself that RA has made.

Will they about face and claim their client is mentally unfit and therefore should not be believed or tried? I still don't understand why they did not at least attempt that move when trying to get the confessions thrown out. Why did they not have their client evaluated pursuant to court order by an independent third party? I feel that doing so was truly their best chance of unringing that bell, but it is too late now.

And yes, I realize Dr. Wala, the prison psych testified that he was unwell, but she isn't independent and testified under cross she had her doubts as to whether his condition was faked or overexaggerated so not as helpful to DT as it could have been IMO.

And if the ruling on the SODDI defense doesn't go their way, what then? I worry about ineffective counsel arguments on appeal the most. All their eggs were in that SODDI basket, then their client started confessing to anyone who would listen and some who refused to listen. How do they get past that if this next ruling does not go their way?

It seems to me that the whole case is in such a state of disaster, that in terms of vulnerability upon appeal, I don't know how it could get any worse.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

You say locked in as if it's a bad thing. They know exactly the moment the girls were abducted because Libby recorded the act in progress. The most terrifying piece of video is the most important piece of evidence. It does give an EXACT time of abduction because it's caught on camera so if that is being "locked in" then great. LE didn't fabricate a timeline so they could frame RA. They have a video that shows exactly when the girls were abducted. RA puts himself on that bridge in that outfit and a witness saw him in that outfit on that bridge, just before she saw Abby and Libby.

The rest of this case really isn't nearly as important as that specific moment in time so if the state is locked in as you say, then that's good. There is no altering the abduction time. Whoever abducted the girls is guilty of their murder weather they actually killed them or not. So if others are involved, BG is still guilty of the crimes also. If BG left the area at 245, he's still guilty of the crime. If he parked at the cemetery vs the cps building, he's still guilty. If it wasn't BG walking on the road close to 4pm, then BG is still guilty of the murders because BG abducted them from the bridge and it really does not matter what BG did after he abducted them because as the charge is worded, he would still be guilty of murder even if all he did was abduct them.

There is not one witness who came forward and said, "I saw RA on the bridge at time X, and he was wearing a navy blue jacket and jeans." That's the problem, one of them. No one said, it was RA. Suddenly, after his arrest, many followers of the case insert RA into the original witness statements. That's not accurate. They each said, I saw a man, a person, someone wearing a blue or black jacket, etc. He worked as a pharmacy tech in a very small town. How could all of these witnesses never recognize him until after the arrest?

 

[DoctorRose]

MOO
Thank you. Your reply was helpful, I think.

Here's a quote from your link; so all, some or none of the gg expenses came from 2022?
"More than three quarters of those costs were logged as part of the murder investigation prior to Allen’s arrest, with only $76,000 of ISP expenses coming since 2022.'

So.. genetic genealogy testing isn't superior, it's just another avenue to take after the first one dead-ends? What would be the purpose/benefit of sending it to Quantico at the end of 2018? (Would Leazenby really have given an exclusive interview to Radar?)

Break In Indiana Teens' Murder: Cops Give More Evidence To FBI In Hunt For Killer

Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby told RadarOnline.com exclusively that they were hoping for a break in the case of Indiana teens Abigail Williams and Liberty German’s gruesome murders after they sent new evidence to the FBI headquarters in Quantico.

radaronline.com

GG would be used if there weren’t a match in the database. It lets the investigators try to find a partial match which would be a relative. Say you find a second cousin or something (some of the DNA matches but most doesn’t). Then you’re at least narrowed down to a certain family and you can investigate to find your suspect and get their DNA to confirm with a typical test. JMO from my understanding of how it works. It’s not more robust, but it lets you cast a wider net.