Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #195

[sunshineray]

IMO there is something special about this jacket that sets it apart from all the others. I think it has a tear in it and left fibers behind.

32:34 mm
I know a lot of blue jackets have been turned into law enforcement
they tell me they don't have the jacket but they've had a lot of people turn in blue jackets

Is that a quote, from who...BM?

 

[justtrish]

The fact that one fallible (like all of us) human being can decide that the third party evidence is false, based solely on opinion, and not let a jury of his peers consider it and decide it (like our justice system is supposed to be), makes me terrified. This is not only about this case and this is not just my take on it (myriad attorneys out there agree with me). JMO MOO IMO

Furthermore, the fact that geofence data (digital EVIDENCE) is being quashed on the DEFENSE side, and the quasi-science of bullet markings on an unspent round on the STATE side, is also terrifying. When one person has the power to decide the outcome of a trial before it even starts and not let a jury decide what THEY think is true....there just is no hope for our justice system, in my opinion. At least not in the state of Indiana.

This is verbiage taken directly from a jury charge, and I have looked at five others and they are very similar. JMO IMO MOO You are the exclusive judges of the facts proved, of the credibility of the witnesses and of the weight to be given to their testimony.

RA's jury has had this power taken away from them before the trial has even started.

JMO MOO IMO

The judge didn't decide based on opinion that the third party defense can't come in, she decided on evidence presented during the hearing. I've listened to MS podcast on this and read articles from those who were in the courtroom taking notes. Each person questioned was asked if they could connect any of these third party suspects to the Delphi on the day in question and the answer was NO. So how is it opinion if they can't connect the person they want to blame to even being in Delphi that day at all? The judge ruled on the evidence presented. She can't just decide that just because they can't prove the person was even in Delphi they should be able to blame that person for the crime.

 

[ClearAhead]

the sheer volume of how many times RA confessed and his wife's initial reaction disturbed me. all the sworn testimonies of those who reviewed these confessions state that they weren't incoherent mumblings, but out of religious conviction. it was only after he viewed the response of his wife hanging up the phone that he realized he could no longer control the narrative.

see the quote above from DC and that 2019 presser. bbm -



plea dealing incoming



yup, and plenty of time to get rid of anything. sorry, using this as a jumping off point -

what's more, RA essentially describes BG's outfit as something similar to what he wore before the DTH video was released IIRC (video was released on the 15th - see link here). no one (including RA) saw another man matching BG's description with the clothes RA describes himself. so the timeline goes -

RA got there 13:30
RA got to bridge at 13:50
Witness parked at 13:45
Witness got to the bridge at 13:53

i do not think that 2017 interview would have happened had RA known that the video would come out. i'd like to imagine that when the DTH video was released, he almost fainted, even though it took years to get to this point. the puzzle pieces just needed to fall in place.

Yes the volume and the content of his confessions are shocking and IMO will sink him if what he’s said appears credible and coherent. Talk of his motive and why he delayed confessing involves a certain amount of rationalization, not typically present with someone in a state of psychosis. MOO

Did Richard Allen confess to killing two Delphi teens? Here's what we learned

Witnesses testified this week about Delphi murder suspect Richard Allen's statements and behavior following his arrest.

www.indystar.com

Allen, Harshman said, talked about why he killed the girls and why he delayed in confessing, although the detective did not elaborate on what those motivations were. Harshman also said Allen expressed fears that his family will no longer love him after the trial, during which they will see graphic photos of the girls' bodies.

Prosecutors say Delphi murders suspect confessed 60 times.

In a three-day hearing this week in the case against Richard Allen, damning testimony came to light about the alleged murder weapon, jailhouse confessions and the role of an Odinist cult

www.independent.co.uk

In the confessions, Harshman said Allen spoke “very specifically” about some of the details of the crime including his alleged motivations.

 

[sunshineray]

The fact that one fallible (like all of us) human being can decide that the third party evidence is false, based solely on opinion, and not let a jury of his peers consider it and decide it (like our justice system is supposed to be), makes me terrified. This is not only about this case and this is not just my take on it (myriad attorneys out there agree with me). JMO MOO IMO

Furthermore, the fact that geofence data (digital EVIDENCE) is being quashed on the DEFENSE side, and the quasi-science of bullet markings on an unspent round on the STATE side, is also terrifying. When one person has the power to decide the outcome of a trial before it even starts and not let a jury decide what THEY think is true....there just is no hope for our justice system, in my opinion. At least not in the state of Indiana.

This is verbiage taken directly from a jury charge, and I have looked at five others and they are very similar. JMO IMO MOO You are the exclusive judges of the facts proved, of the credibility of the witnesses and of the weight to be given to their testimony.

RA's jury has had this power taken away from them before the trial has even started.

JMO MOO IMO

It's based on the written laws, the case law.

 

[susiQ]

IMO there is something special about this jacket that sets it apart from all the others. I think it has a tear in it and left fibers behind.

32:34 mm
I know a lot of blue jackets have been turned into law enforcement
they tell me they don't have the jacket but they've had a lot of people turn in blue jackets

MOO, but I’ve seen lots of Carhartt jackets, and that jacket is not a Carhartt. Too many folds, thinner fabric. Looks like a navy “windbreaker” as we used to call them back in the day . If RA was wearing his blue or black Carhartt, he is not BG. MOO

 

[TTF14]

It's based on the written laws, the case law.

Which law? ETA: Her rulings are based on case law and her opinion of how they should be interpreted. It's subjective, and I don't think anyone would argue with that.

IMO MOO

 

[TTF14]

MOO, but I’ve seen lots of Carhartt jackets, and that jacket is not a Carhartt. Too many folds, thinner fabric. Looks like a navy “windbreaker” as we used to call them back in the day . If RA was wearing his blue or black Carhartt, he is not BG. MOO

I've always seen it as an LL Bean jacket. I don't see "BG's" jacket as being a Carhartt at all. IMO JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

It would shock me if during the trial we don’t hear from a FBI mathematical computer guru who has taken a deep dive into that photo to determine the height of the man. From the markings on the wooden board, GH was able to determine where Libby stood when she took the video. It is known precisely how long and wide each plank is so a there’s no reason that comparison data can’t be applied to generate the height of the man that is very close to accurate.

Maybe it was? Maybe LE have always known the man was only 5’4” to 5’7” but used it as holdback information to avoid being swamped with useless tips naming every short guy in the country. That information could’ve still proven valuable in eliminating leads involving taller guys,

and then that lost tip involving RA came to light. He fit perfectly.

MOO

Plus RA owned (was it registered? I think it was) a SS gun that matched the ejector tool markings on the unspent bullet that was recovered according to the ISP Ballistics Lab. LE would have needed a SW to obtain a gun to compare the markings. No wonder we have Franks 1-5, although I still think there will be some form of electronic or physical (DNA) match recovered during the search that ties RA to the crimes.

Between the countless confessions, witness testimony, self incrimination about being there that day in the same basic clothing including a face covering leaves little rooms for doubt to me. Unless RA has a long lost identical twin or happens to be the most unlucky guy in the entire universe BG=RA=Killer.

I'm thinking RA came into focus after he was tipped by someone, an alibi fell apart, or they did indeed start a total review of all tips from day 1.

Brick by brick...#Justice4Abby&Libby

MOO

 

[maamager]

Furthermore, the fact that geofence data (digital EVIDENCE) is being quashed on the DEFENSE side, and the quasi-science of bullet markings on an unspent round on the STATE side, is also terrifying. When one person has the power to decide the outcome of a trial before it even starts and not let a jury decide what THEY think is true....there just is no hope for our justice system, in my opinion. At least not in the state of Indiana.

This is verbiage taken directly from a jury charge, and I have looked at five others and they are very similar. JMO IMO MOO You are the exclusive judges of the facts proved, of the credibility of the witnesses and of the weight to be given to their testimony.

RA's jury has had this power taken away from them before the trial has even started.

JMO MOO IMO

snipped

i understand your pause here but let me take a whack at this. geofencing and bullet evidence differ significantly in their methodologies and scientific scrutiny. geofencing relies on location data from smartphones within a defined geographic area, which can be broad and capture numerous individuals, potentially making it overly inclusive and imprecise.

bullet evidence involves comparing tool marks on casings to a specific firearm, but it could face criticism for lacking standardization. geofencing is more digital and broad, especially if there aren't tools to triangulate a boundary properly, while bullet evidence is more physical and specific to forensic comparisons

either way, both could and probably would be challenged by experts on the defense side. up to the jury what they find credible.

 

[girlhasnoname]

So much water from Deer Creek and nothing to wash himself. Poor guy.

He would have had to hurry out of the CS as that is when Libbys Dad was starting to look for her.

IMO

 

[TTF14]

either way, both could and probably would be challenged by experts on the defense side. up to the jury what they find credible

Exactly. This is my point. The jury won't even have a chance to decide what they find credible about geofence data since the judge has decided it's not going to be allowed in.

It's shocking.

IMO MOO

 

[maamager]

Exactly. This is my point. The jury won't even have a chance to decide what they find credible about geofence data since the judge has decided it's not going to be allowed in.

It's shocking.

IMO MOO

not at all shocking to me, but to each their own! especially when it's emboldened by actual forensic evidence. i am also pretty confident that the geofencing data wouldn't help the defense in this case at all.

 

[iamshadow21]

IF he molested young girls before, as he said sometime, he wouldn't have taken another, older victim than he did, IMO.
Btw: There were around 50 people at the MHB area that day, afaik. How many of them entered the High Bridge? I think, not many. And RA's plan included, so it seems, the entering of MHB by his future victims. So Abby and Libby were targeted hours before, I believe. MOO

Depends on the offender. If you look at serial predators, there are a lot who do attack both women and girls. Bundy and Ridgway, most notably.

You do get offenders who only attack children by preference, but those who attack women will often attack young teens. Ridgway's youngest known victim was fourteen and the bulk of his known victims were teenagers or very young adults. Bundy's was twelve, but he also killed fifteen, sixteen and seventeen year olds and sexually assaulted the young preteen daughter of his long term partner. He is also a suspect in the disappearance and suspected murder of an eight year old when he was just a teenager himself.

Richard Ramirez attacked every age group and gender. He was abducting and sexually assaulting children at the same time as he was doing home invasions and raping, robbing and murdering adults.

I know that this is the only crime RA is currently facing charges for, but just because he is charged with attacking two young teens doesn't mean he couldn't have or wouldn't have attacked someone older if they caught his eye. Especially as this is a 'trail' attack. Trail attackers tend to wait and lurk or stalk an area until someone catches their eye. What draws a killer to a victim is incredibly personal to them, and doesn't necessarily conform to a clear reason to an outsider. Bundy with the majority of his known victims being 'college student with long dark hair parted down the middle' was very hyperspecific. Most attackers aren't so locked in to a particular set of physical characteristics or class. And even Bundy numbered middle schoolers, high schoolers, and a married woman abducted from a ski lodge amongst his tally.

MOO

 

[TTF14]

i am also pretty confident that the geofencing data wouldn't help the defense in this case at all.

rsbm

The jury should be given the chance to determine that.

IMO MOO

 

[sunshineray]

Yes the volume and the content of his confessions are shocking and IMO will sink him if what he’s said appears credible and coherent. Talk of his motive and why he delayed confessing involves a certain amount of rationalization, not typically present with someone in a state of psychosis. MOO

Did Richard Allen confess to killing two Delphi teens? Here's what we learned

Witnesses testified this week about Delphi murder suspect Richard Allen's statements and behavior following his arrest.

www.indystar.com

Allen, Harshman said, talked about why he killed the girls and why he delayed in confessing, although the detective did not elaborate on what those motivations were. Harshman also said Allen expressed fears that his family will no longer love him after the trial, during which they will see graphic photos of the girls' bodies.

Prosecutors say Delphi murders suspect confessed 60 times.

In a three-day hearing this week in the case against Richard Allen, damning testimony came to light about the alleged murder weapon, jailhouse confessions and the role of an Odinist cult

www.independent.co.uk

In the confessions, Harshman said Allen spoke “very specifically” about some of the details of the crime including his alleged motivations.

Anybody seen the recent hearings transcripts anywhere? I think it's going to be as elusive as the June 2023 hearing transcript was.

 

[maamager]

rsbm

The jury should be given the chance to determine that.

IMO MOO

hey, fair enough. i'm typically inclined to agree with you. but judges are responsible for determining whether evidence is reliable enough to be considered by a jury and that's exactly what is happening here IMO. this helps protect the integrity of the trial process on both sides. with mention of a gun in the DTH video, the proximity of an unspent round, etc etc, I think there's more than enough connective tissue to make it work.

 

[sunshineray]

rsbm

The jury should be given the chance to determine that.

IMO MOO

Not if it's inferior data and the more accurate GPS data is available. MO

 

[TTF14]

hey, fair enough. but judges are responsible for determining whether evidence is reliable enough to be considered by a jury and that's exactly what is happening here imo. this helps protect the integrity of the trial process on both sides.

Exactly my point. I disagree with the rulings here, and it's terrifying for the future of the judicial process in Indiana. In this case, only the "integrity" of the trial process is being "protected" for the State, NOT the defense. Just the opposite is happening....hands are being completely tied and I doubt any of this is going to hold up on appeal. It seems like the entire goal here is for this to end in a conviction and then have it spend umpteen years in appeal. I'm trying to hold on to hope that it's all part of a grander plan we can't see yet (like nabbing all of the other actors involved in this crime and probably others). This is all my opinion, although I know not only MY opinion .

IMO JMO

 

[ClearAhead]

It's seems maybe the problem is they never had their client independently evaluated. So they have Dr. W, at the prison, who while having empathy for RA's suposed psychosis, has also said she felt he wasn't being honest with her about his condition...and she may be the ears that heard one of RA's most damning confessions, possibly with details. A most turbulent witness, on both sides. JMO

Definitely and what causes me to question the integrity of RA’s defence team. It’s reported his 61 confessions occurred over a period of 60 days - two entire months averaging one a day. According to the motions filed they outrightly accused Westfield prison of abusing him, treating him like a dog and so on. Poor RA.

So while these confessions are occurring they totally rely on the phycologist who is employed by the same prison to be responsible for his mental health treatment rather than seek an independent evaluation to determine what was going on with him during this time? Furthermore it appears he only stopped confessing due to fear that his family was rejecting him, their words and actions I have no doubt were coached by the DT.

My conclusion is it proves their attention-getting concerns about the prison were fabricated for the sake of gaining public sympathy for their client. I can’t think of any other reason why the DT would stand back and let his loose lips incriminate himself for two entire months other than it was because they knew he was guilty.

MOO and JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

The fact that one fallible (like all of us) human being can decide that the third party evidence is false, based solely on opinion, and not let a jury of his peers consider it and decide it (like our justice system is supposed to be), makes me terrified. This is not only about this case and this is not just my take on it (myriad attorneys out there agree with me). JMO MOO IMO

Furthermore, the fact that geofence data (digital EVIDENCE) is being quashed on the DEFENSE side, and the quasi-science of bullet markings on an unspent round on the STATE side, is also terrifying. When one person has the power to decide the outcome of a trial before it even starts and not let a jury decide what THEY think is true....there just is no hope for our justice system, in my opinion. At least not in the state of Indiana.

This is verbiage taken directly from a jury charge, and I have looked at five others and they are very similar. JMO IMO MOO You are the exclusive judges of the facts proved, of the credibility of the witnesses and of the weight to be given to their testimony.

RA's jury has had this power taken away from them before the trial has even started.

JMO MOO IMO

Ballistic evidence is allowed by law to be presented in Indiana period. It's up to the JURY to decide if it's quasi science or not, and I have no doubt there will be dueling experts on this, which is how it should work.

Even the Examiner from the ISP Lab who performed the exam here stated in her own report that the results are open to different interpretation based on the level of expertise of the individual examiner.

The jury should be the ones to make the determination of weight they place from the testimony offered and they will from both sides.

MOO