Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #195

[Arkay]

@Arkay Good post! Thanks for your candor and kindness.

On the instant decisions, the two last decided by Gull, one side lays out the law favorable to them, the other lays out the law favorable to them. Neither issue has a black and white law, codified like a statute. It is common law, and thus requires interpretation. That is why I asked @vinayd "what constitutes nexus?" The answer to that question governs one of the decisions. Lawyers (and I am including Gull, as she is one) often disagree. We have an adversarial system, and that is just the way it is.

In making your decision above, you mention lack of blood at the scene, girls hung upside down, F runes. So you accept the version of the State's witnesses. That is fine, but it is the jury's job to weigh evidence and determine fact, not the judge. The judge determines points of law.

There are certain points I agree on in Judge Gull's ruling, and in others I don't. That's fine, and our rules allow for attorneys that disagree to get another opinion, thus appeals.

I agree it is unbearable for the girls' families. No one can bring them back. It's a terrible thing. This isn't disputed. But RA represents every man and woman in this country (at least Indiana) who faces trial. He should be considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Imprisoning any man or woman for two years pre-trial in a prison (not jail) prior to having counsel, not allowing them counsel of their choice, not allowing them to put forth a defense, is unacceptable to me. In my opinion, it's not a search for truth anymore. I want to know what really, actually happened that day on the bridge. Not what the prosecution tells me, not what the defense tells me, not what the judge tells me, but what the evidence tells me. And I can't discern the truth when evidence is withheld for my consideration.

Thank you for your response, as well.

Of course you are correct, we use common law and have an adversarial system. Our inheritance from England.

I do accept the State’s version of events, because IMO what they have described corresponds with the photographic evidence obtained at the scene. To me, Libby’s blood on the tree is much more likely to be due to her last moments on Earth, because I do not see an F shape, but a desperate girl trying to save her life.

I suppose a subjective case can be made for what is a small amount of blood versus a large amount of blood, so I feel confident in the educated opinions of the blood spatter experts and the other forensic experts in their fields, who have concluded that the blood was copious, at least for Libby.

I regard leaves, sticks and twigs to be expected in a forest, particularly in winter when they lie on the ground. I would believe then that they were handy to throw upon the bodies in an attempt to obscure their corpses. Had A and L been found in a desert or on a glacier with leaves and sticks, I would hypothesize that those materials were brought there for nefarious purposes. Not in the woods, though.

I concur with the prosecution because RA has no alibi and the heathen worshippers do, and because to my eyes, RA looks eerily alike to BG. And he himself said he was on the bridge.

You know all this, of course. This and other bits of info that have been disclosed. We just interpret it differently.

I’m all for the notion that a D attorney wants to appeal a judge’s ruling that does not suit the Defense. This is allowed in our judicial system.

Yet I believe JG spent the time necessary to fine-tooth comb through the FM, found it to be feeble, and made her decision. It’s my concerted opinion that had the D put forth an alternate narrative that was evidence-based, we would be having a different conversation.

But all I see from the D is a very lengthy flight of fancy. We know a courtroom is not a Creative Writing Seminar. IMO they cobbled together what they could, but in a judicial setting, concrete evidence must win.

JMO

 

[vinayd]

A nexus is simply a connection which they simply don't have. No link. No threads. No links.

 

[ClearAhead]

The Delphi Murders: The Defense Asks for an Interlocutory Appeal

This development could mean delays for the October trial. Come see us do our first live show in Kendallville, Indiana https://clcevents.eventcalendarapp.com/u/43485/315102 Support The Murder Sheet by buying a t-shirt here: https://www.murdersheetshop.com/ Send tips to murdersheet@gmail.com...

art19.com

The Delphi Murders: The Defense Asks for an Interlocutory Appeal​

Good explanations of the process.

MS is perplexed why the D ‘put all their eggs in one basket’ since they should’ve seen all kinds of problems to their defense theory in advance.

 

[iamshadow21]

The Delphi Murders: The Defense Asks for an Interlocutory Appeal

This development could mean delays for the October trial. Come see us do our first live show in Kendallville, Indiana https://clcevents.eventcalendarapp.com/u/43485/315102 Support The Murder Sheet by buying a t-shirt here: https://www.murdersheetshop.com/ Send tips to murdersheet@gmail.com...

art19.com

The Delphi Murders: The Defense Asks for an Interlocutory Appeal​

Good explanations of the process.

MS is perplexed why the D ‘put all their eggs in one basket’ since they should’ve seen all kinds of problems to their defense theory in advance.

Exactly what I've been saying. Any defense attorney who's been in the game longer than five seconds should have known to have multiple contingency plans, especially if they know their approach is incredibly unlikely to be allowed at trial.

This appeal sounds to a layman like myself like a toddler stamping their feet and screaming 'it's not fair! i want to!' when told no.

MOO

 

[tlcya]

The Delphi Murders: The Defense Asks for an Interlocutory Appeal

This development could mean delays for the October trial. Come see us do our first live show in Kendallville, Indiana https://clcevents.eventcalendarapp.com/u/43485/315102 Support The Murder Sheet by buying a t-shirt here: https://www.murdersheetshop.com/ Send tips to murdersheet@gmail.com...

art19.com

The Delphi Murders: The Defense Asks for an Interlocutory Appeal​

Good explanations of the process.

MS is perplexed why the D ‘put all their eggs in one basket’ since they should’ve seen all kinds of problems to their defense theory in advance.

I am in agreement with MS. All the eggs in one very poorly constructed basket.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

I am in agreement with MS. All the eggs in one very poorly constructed basket.

Maybe RA has left them no choice.
If he has no alibi,
if forensic evidence left crime scene point to his residence.
If something that ties him to the crime was found in his home.
If his search history is damning +confessions are accurate and genuine plus the likeness in appearance and audio to BG.
I mean they really had no choice but make up a defense out of thin air IMO.

 

[tlcya]

I also like how the MS episode discusses the portion of the request for Interlocutory Appeal that states RA is "perhaps" the only person ever in the state of Indiana to be held in custody in a correctional facility prior to trial [paraphrased by me].

And they found with a couple of quick google searches quite a few instances of that exact circumstance approximately 19:00 mark in the episode. But as per DT's style, they cannot seem to help themselves and overstate, but it's cool (eyeroll) they qualified it with a "perhaps" so they aren't really lying.

When this point was being argued in court a specific number of detainees who were held similarly was provided by the state and MS reminds of us that fact in this episode.

 

[WildHuncher]

I also like how the MS episode discusses the portion of the request for Interlocutory Appeal that states RA is "perhaps" the only person ever in the state of Indiana to be held in custody in a correctional facility prior to trial [paraphrased by me].

And they found with a couple of quick google searches quite a few instances of that exact circumstance approximately 19:00 mark in the episode. But as per DT's style, they cannot seem to help themselves and overstate, but it's cool (eyeroll) they qualified it with a "perhaps" so they aren't really lying.

When this point was being argued in court a specific number of detainees who were held similarly was provided by the state and MS reminds of us that fact in this episode.

I hate that. Abuse of hyperbole is the worst thing in the world.

 

[tlcya]

lmao Murder Sheet Anya and her annoyance with the continued use of the word paganist - just say pagan you twits!! as a person who has defined herself as a pagan in the past, I agree with her. it's annoying, just stop already, not everything has to have an ism or ite at the end of it.

 

[iamshadow21]

Maybe RA has left them no choice.
If he has no alibi,
if forensic evidence left crime scene point to his residence.
If something that ties him to the crime was found in his home.
If his search history is damning +confessions are accurate and genuine plus the likeness in appearance and audio to BG.
I mean they really had no choice but make up a defense out of thin air IMO.

Then you chip away at the evidence, piece by piece. It's not showmanship and a big stage, but it's a good, solid approach taken by defense teams all over the country in all kinds of cases. You make sure know the discovery inside out so that you can ask the best questions on cross to create doubt about its worth in the jury's minds, and if you can, you hire an expert or two who might throw a different light on what the prosecution presents.

That is literally the job. As a public defender, you take the case you're given and you make the best of it, and by the best, I mean the client's best interests, not your own.

MOO

 

[sunshineray]

@Arkay Good post! Thanks for your candor and kindness.

On the instant decisions, the two last decided by Gull, one side lays out the law favorable to them, the other lays out the law favorable to them. Neither issue has a black and white law, codified like a statute. It is common law, and thus requires interpretation. That is why I asked @vinayd "what constitutes nexus?" The answer to that question governs one of the decisions. Lawyers (and I am including Gull, as she is one) often disagree. We have an adversarial system, and that is just the way it is.

In making your decision above, you mention lack of blood at the scene, girls hung upside down, F runes. So you accept the version of the State's witnesses. That is fine, but it is the jury's job to weigh evidence and determine fact, not the judge. The judge determines points of law.

There are certain points I agree on in Judge Gull's ruling, and in others I don't. That's fine, and our rules allow for attorneys that disagree to get another opinion, thus appeals.

I agree it is unbearable for the girls' families. No one can bring them back. It's a terrible thing. This isn't disputed. But RA represents every man and woman in this country (at least Indiana) who faces trial. He should be considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Imprisoning any man or woman for two years pre-trial in a prison (not jail) prior to having counsel, not allowing them counsel of their choice, not allowing them to put forth a defense, is unacceptable to me. In my opinion, it's not a search for truth anymore. I want to know what really, actually happened that day on the bridge. Not what the prosecution tells me, not what the defense tells me, not what the judge tells me, but what the evidence tells me. And I can't discern the truth when evidence is withheld for my consideration.

Where has the DT shown a strong connection linking people to the theory that they had put forth? They couldn't and didn't. That's the nexus that's missing, anyway you look at it by the laws that exist. JG ruled fairly and correctly under the law. MO

 

[steeltowngirl]

I will openly admit I judge them because they had a chance to present their evidence in a 3 day hearing and fell flat on their faces as they have absolutely no proof of anything they are claiming.

MOOOOOO

I’m judging them because they can’t SPELL!

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

 

[steeltowngirl]

I also like how the MS episode discusses the portion of the request for Interlocutory Appeal that states RA is "perhaps" the only person ever in the state of Indiana to be held in custody in a correctional facility prior to trial [paraphrased by me].

And they found with a couple of quick google searches quite a few instances of that exact circumstance approximately 19:00 mark in the episode. But as per DT's style, they cannot seem to help themselves and overstate, but it's cool (eyeroll) they qualified it with a "perhaps" so they aren't really lying.

When this point was being argued in court a specific number of detainees who were held similarly was provided by the state and MS reminds of us that fact in this episode.

It’s in this article.

At the time, Allen was one of 22 people housed pre-trial with the Indiana Department of Correction.

Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen moved to different prison

 

[steeltowngirl]

That is kinda how I feel about the girls really - they have to be the most unlucky kids in the state if not the entire country that day to be walking a basic trail in broad daylight, and meet their killer on the that trail. Incredibly awful and incredibly unlucky. I wonder if we will ever know if RA is the real killer or if he played some role in all of this? I wonder if we will ever know if this was truly random, or if there was some plan in place that day.

I don’t view the girls’ luck as having anything to do with it.
Not willing to pass anything off to bad luck.

Nope.
Every last bit of blame for their senseless and brutal murders is to be placed all on the killer.

All on him.

jmo

 

[kae27]

I hate that. Abuse of hyperbole is the worst thing in the world.

Well played.

 

[kae27]

I’m judging them because they can’t SPELL!

View attachment 530392

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

Oh my. That really hurts my eyes.

 

[shonyakay]

Maybe RA has left them no choice.
If he has no alibi,
if forensic evidence left crime scene point to his residence.
If something that ties him to the crime was found in his home.
If his search history is damning +confessions are accurate and genuine plus the likeness in appearance and audio to BG.
I mean they really had no choice but make up a defense out of thin air IMO.

I agree with everything you stated except making up the defense out of thin air part. To be fair, they used what was in the Discovery to craft this defense. At the hearings, an email dated September 17, 2017 between Carter and the FBI references what the defense would later craft RA's defense around.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

I agree with everything you stated except making up the defense out of thin air part. To be fair, they used what was in the Discovery to craft this defense. At the hearings, an email dated September 17, 2017 between Carter and the FBI references what the defense would later craft RA's defense around.

I’ve been following this case and have not seen this evidence. Can you link the document or testimony that cites this email?
Thanks

 

[vinayd]

I’ve been following this case and have not seen this evidence. Can you link the document or testimony that cites this email?
Thanks

Its more like the D weaved together a convoluted web of speculation based on a complex investigation that ended with RA and called it a nexus. Nexxus for the greek origin and a shampoo I used a few times in the 80s but wasn't for me

 

[Knitty]

This thread is closed. Please continue at Thread #196