Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #196

[Salah11]

Thank you for such a reasonable well thought out post @Tealgrove. Moving a deceased body is not an easy thing to do, it is literally dead weight (no distribution of center of mass), and not like they could be lifted over the shoulder or carried about easily, especially during those conditions.

JMO

Well Libby was dragged so that sums up how easy it was. Yet we are meant to believe they took them away and then returned them. It’s sheer desperation to suggest something so farcical.

But then the defense don’t have much else. IMO

 

[ClearAhead]

I don’t understand why this whole discussion about the girls being moved and brought back has reared its ugly head again.

Common sense tells us that it is not even remotely possible for any of these theories to be plausible.

The terrain alone makes it impossible. Bringing bodies back to an active search area, parking somewhere and carrying/dragging two bodies down a steep slope etc etc., and not being seen or heard is beyond comprehension.

It’s neither possible nor plausible IMO.

MOO

As was suggested by MS, these impossible scenarios remove the focus away from RA, it’s a strategy by the D.

JMO

 

[Megnut]

Definitely has a little confrontational tone to it IMO.

Reminiscent of demanding Judge Gull recuse herself because they might call her as a witness over the jailed witness whose testimony they seem to have dropped.

I'm sticking a pin in this too -- all those extra weeks they insisted they would need to present their defense --

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

For this theory to have any legs, we have to assume the ME was either totally incompetent or completely negligent in not estimating a TOD via analysis of stomach contents, as is standard procedure. The difference is considerable - a few hours after the girl’s breakfast, between 2:30 and 3:30pm, or 14 or more hours later, beyond 4:30am at a point when digestion certainly would’ve been complete. Aside from that there’s rigor mortis and other bodily indicators that occur at certain stages after death.

As the autopsy couldn’t possibly have indicated a precise TOD (no witnesses), going by their track record it’s really not all that surprising for the D to mislead by claiming the autopsy doesn’t reveal a TOD.

JMO

By now, I'm sure Rozzi and Baldwin have testimony from Dr. Roland Kohr. Any questions have likely been addressed. MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Yes RA was cut off by his family after he began confessing. But a situation that occurred ‘after’ can’t be the cause of it.

Regardless Rozzi is on record as stating RA ‘losses it’ if he’s cut off from his family. IMO that is not normal and RA obviously has mental health issues well beyond his ‘safekeeping’ at the prison. JMO

Agreed about the confessions part. RA was treated for depression at times in his life. I think he also has uncontrollable rage, especially when drinking.

JMO

 

[mrjitty]

Reminiscent of demanding Judge Gull recuse herself because they might call her as a witness over the jailed witness whose testimony they seem to have dropped.

I'm sticking a pin in this too -- all those extra weeks they insisted they would need to present their defense --

JMO

Haha - Judge Gull as a witness was one of the highlights of this case for me

I bet she snorted her coffee out her nose with laughter when she read that one.

 

[Willow Knight]

Brought back to exactly the spot the phone stopped moving many hours earlier, and one of the victims laid over the phone and killed... without the phone moving at all.

Not plausible.

MOO

Amazing. And at night. Brought the girls back to the exact spot Libby's phone was on the ground, in the dark.

 

[mrjitty]

As was suggested by MS, these impossible scenarios remove the focus away from RA, it’s a strategy by the D.

JMO

I think they need to have something on the timeline, otherwise they walk straight into Rick putting himself on the bridge and confessing. That is brutal.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I think they need to have something on the timeline, otherwise they walk straight into Rick putting himself on the bridge and confessing. That is brutal.

I believe they do, Carter and Lezanby have both stated they believed the crime was committed and over between 2:30 and 3:30. There has to be some evidence proving that timeframe IMO or that wouldn't have pinned it down so definitively.

JMO

 

[ClearAhead]

I think they need to have something on the timeline, otherwise they walk straight into Rick putting himself on the bridge and confessing. That is brutal.

Yes IIRC this timeline business began due to the alibis of SODDI, if they couldn’t be placed in Delphi during the afternoon, well then just shift the timeline to the middle of the night. Unless something changed…

But that still doesn’t get Rick off the bridge or removed from Libby’s video at 2:13pm.

 

[Tealgrove]

As was suggested by MS, these impossible scenarios remove the focus away from RA, it’s a strategy by the D.

JMO

Thanks I am aware of the strategy.

 

[ClearAhead]

By now, I'm sure Rozzi and Baldwin have testimony from Dr. Roland Kohr. Any questions have likely been addressed. MOO

Nothing mentioned anywhere that I’ve noticed, specifically in any of the various FM versions. This theory is based on masses of speculation, even more than the preceding one. JMO

 

[vinayd]

I remember reading one of the guards testimonies and RA was tased when he wouldn't remove his hands from the slot.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Nothing mentioned anywhere that I’ve noticed, specifically in any of the various FM versions. This theory is based on masses of speculation, even more than the preceding one. JMO

The bodies were sent to Terre Haute and (now retired) Dr. Kohr is a well known, long established forensic pathologist at the Terre Haute Regional Hospital. I don't think it's unrealistic to have the opinion that Dr. Kohr did the autopsy and that the D deposed him.

I'm curious... who you think did the autopsies?

Dr. Roland Kohr, MD - Forensic Pathologist in Terre Haute, IN | Healthgrades

Dr. Roland Kohr, MD is a forensic pathologist in Terre Haute, IN and has over 44 years of experience in the medical field. He graduated from INDIANA UNIVERSITY / BLOOMINGTON in 1979. He is affiliated with Terre Haute Regional Hospital.

www.healthgrades.com

February 15, 2:45 p.m.: Authorities positively identify the two bodies found Tuesday as Abigail Williams and Liberty German during a press conference held in Delphi.
Autopsies were performed earlier that day in Terre Haute, according to authorities.
WRTV

DELPHI TIMELINE: Disappearance and murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams

The mystery surrounding a double murder continues over a month after the bodies of Liberty German, 14, and Abigail Williams, 13, were found. </p><p><strong>MORE </strong>| <a…

www.wrtv.com

 

[ClearAhead]

The bodies were sent to Terre Haute and (now retired) Dr. Kohr is a well known, long established forensic pathologist at the Terre Haute Regional Hospital. I don't think it's unrealistic to have the opinion that Dr. Kohr did the autopsy and that the D deposed him.

I'm curious... who you think did the autopsies?

Dr. Roland Kohr, MD - Forensic Pathologist in Terre Haute, IN | Healthgrades

Dr. Roland Kohr, MD is a forensic pathologist in Terre Haute, IN and has over 44 years of experience in the medical field. He graduated from INDIANA UNIVERSITY / BLOOMINGTON in 1979. He is affiliated with Terre Haute Regional Hospital.

www.healthgrades.com

February 15, 2:45 p.m.: Authorities positively identify the two bodies found Tuesday as Abigail Williams and Liberty German during a press conference held in Delphi.
Autopsies were performed earlier that day in Terre Haute, according to authorities.
WRTV

DELPHI TIMELINE: Disappearance and murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams

The mystery surrounding a double murder continues over a month after the bodies of Liberty German, 14, and Abigail Williams, 13, were found. </p><p><strong>MORE </strong>| <a…

www.wrtv.com

No dispute over who conducted the autopsies. But I’m doubting an estimated time of death wasn’t determined since that’s a routine protocol. I recall around the time of the initial FM I read somewhere the D hadn’t even bothered to dispose the ME regarding the autopsy but now I can’t find the source. Alternately there’s no proof they did.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Nothing mentioned anywhere that I’ve noticed, specifically in any of the various FM versions. This theory is based on masses of speculation, even more than the preceding one. JMO

I’m looking for the defense motion / source document, but this article does mention Kohr.
ETA: attached source doc page 10
all docs Google drive:
State v Richard Allen 10/28/22: 08C01-2210-MR-00000 - State v. Richard Allen- 2 Counts of Murder - Google Drive

They say Allen “… ‘confessed’ to ‘molesting (those) two young girls and shooting them in the back.’ On another occasion, (Allen) professed his sorrow for molesting Abby, Libby, and others which he specifically named … These facts are known to be falsities, none of which are supported by the autopsy findings by Dr. Roland Kohr as to the cause of death of the girls and unsupported by the absence of any evidence that either one of the girls were sexually assaulted near or before the time of their deaths.”

Richard Allen’s attorneys file motion to suppress ‘confessions’ - Carroll County Comet

Richard Allen’s attorneys have filed a motion to suppress “incriminating statements” allegedly made by their client to inmates and employees at Westville Correctional Facility during his year-long stay there. They say the statements were involuntary, and obtained in violation of their client’s...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

 

[ClearAhead]

I’m looking for the defense motion / source document, but this article does mention Kohr.

They say Allen “… ‘confessed’ to ‘molesting (those) two young girls and shooting them in the back.’ On another occasion, (Allen) professed his sorrow for molesting Abby, Libby, and others which he specifically named … These facts are known to be falsities, none of which are supported by the autopsy findings by Dr. Roland Kohr as to the cause of death of the girls and unsupported by the absence of any evidence that either one of the girls were sexually assaulted near or before the time of their deaths.”

Richard Allen’s attorneys file motion to suppress ‘confessions’ - Carroll County Comet

Richard Allen’s attorneys have filed a motion to suppress “incriminating statements” allegedly made by their client to inmates and employees at Westville Correctional Facility during his year-long stay there. They say the statements were involuntary, and obtained in violation of their client’s...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

Yes it mentions him but the D for sure would have a copy of the autopsy, which would state that information without ever disposing him.

Also “……..that either one of the girls were sexually assaulted near or before the time of their deaths.” I notice the word time of their deaths is quoted - as time is one of the most important elements of an autopsy. If one wants to get persnickety it does not say “absence of any evidence that either one of the girls were sexually assaulted near or before >< their deaths.”

 

[steeltowngirl]

Yes it mentions him but the D for sure would have a copy of the autopsy, which would state that information without ever disposing him.

Also “……..that either one of the girls were sexually assaulted near or before the time of their deaths.” I notice the word time of their deaths is quoted - as time is one of the most important elements of an autopsy. If one wants to get persnickety it does not say “absence of any evidence that either one of the girls were sexually assaulted near or before >< their deaths.”

Yep, D had the autopsy report, listed in the appendix document. Sure wish we did, too!

 

[Arkay]

I posted in reference to this car theory yesterday, but it keeps being mentioned so I can’t refrain from adding some additional thoughts. My opinion, of course.

It is indeed true that if a phone is tracking steps, that will cease when riding in a car. But that is irrelevant here.

The notion of them being driven anywhere makes no sense IMO and is totally devoid of evidence.

If I were a juror on this case, I would be compelled to determine what is beyond a reasonable doubt.

It is for me completely doubtful that someone would first drive the intended victims away from the scene and then instead of killing them far away, bring them right back to the place where their families expected them to be, where Libby’s sister dropped them off and where people would first start searching for them when they were missing.

We know they died where they were found since that is where the evidence showed they bled out.

Is there evidence of tire tracks leading to and from the murder site? Why would a murderer, having driven them away, not only dispose of them where they were most likely to be found and also plant the phone there instead of throwing it 100 miles away?

To me this is as likely as saying a helicopter or an airplane or a hot air balloon was implemented to whisk them away and then incredibly brought them back to kill them and leave them in the area where they were known to have been.

If I were inclined to cold-bloodedly assault and murder two beautiful young girls, I would hope to not be so blatantly ignorant as to drive them away just to bring them back, when instead I could have driven their bodies hundreds of miles away to another state, or buried them elsewhere, or thrown them into a body of water.

Certainly just my opinion.

 

[ClearAhead]

Yep, D had the autopsy report, listed in the appendix document. Sure wish we did, too!

View attachment 531170

Yes I agree, the autopsy report will be a significant piece of evidence. As for the D and their dispositions, I think indeed it’s true they put all their eggs in one basket by wasting all their time disposing mostly investigators in support of their FMs and SODDI. Meanwhile the actual facts including crime scene evidence would be insignificant if they could raise doubt RA was guilty of any involvement. All that’s changed now, an example is how poorly they were prepared for the Ps blood spatter evidence which throws a kibosh to their storyline. MOO