Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #196

[sunshineray]

We don't have much information about how many people were out searching that night. In fact, IMO, there were probably very few, if any, searching on RL's property after his neighbors got done looking.

It's not a difficult task to hide in the woods at night from people, especially if a person was approaching from the east.

And how would that coincide with the blood evidence at the scene Cicero testified to? Hiding in the woods, stripping the girls, chasing a victim down, dragging her (Libby)? There were still a lots of people out searching. There were neighbors. It makes no sense to return to the scene of the abduction, that's what you're proposing, the girls being taken away and then returned to be dumped or killed where everyone is looking for them? AJMO

 

[ClearAhead]

Given that the SODDI defence is out, are we expecting to hear anything about cell phone use prior to the girl's arrival at the bridge?

If there was a cellphone connection between Libby and a SODDI on the day of the murders, the D sure failed miserably by not mentioning that evidence during the 3-day hearing. Of course it’s always easier to insinuate it exists, based on nothing more than the “hearsay, speculation, and rumours” which the Judge referred to. MOO

 

[Vern]

In the P's direct examination of Cecil, he clearly makes a point of what time the video ended and what time the step counter stopped. I'm assuming that he was attempting to form a timeline for their deaths.

3 Day Hearing - Google Drive

drive.google.com

IMO, he was actually testifying to "what time the video ended and what time the step counter stopped" (as I said before). And, as I also stated before - the fact that the phone was not turned off. Nothing more, nothing less. Well within his area of expertize.

Maybe I'm just missing where they asked him to establish the ToD for the prosecution???? That's what you've insinuated. If so, could you please point me to the page number as I am just not seeing it.

Guess who wasn't called? The Medical Examiner. The expert in the actual ToD field. Given that the P&D both have his report, I'm just going to guess that the D didn't call him as a witness for their SODDI or "ToD was nearer 0433hrs on the 14th" because they have some idea that his testimony would not back either of those theories up.

And the P has absolutely no need to bring him into the trial until the trial.

 

[Vern]

And how would that coincide with the blood evidence at the scene Cicero testified to? Hiding in the woods, stripping the girls, chasing a victim down, dragging her (Libby)? There were still a lots of people out searching. There were neighbors. It makes no sense to return to the scene of the abduction, that's what you're proposing, the girls being taken away and then returned to be dumped or killed where everyone is looking for them? AJMO

And managed to pull it all off without the benefit of flashlights or noise. The trees were bare so any flashlight being used in the woods down the hill from the trail would have been noticed by the people still manning/securing the trails for the overnight. Doesn't sound very reasonable to me.

 

[FrostedGlass]

And how would that coincide with the blood evidence at the scene Cicero testified to? Hiding in the woods, stripping the girls, chasing a victim down, dragging her (Libby)? There were still a lots of people out searching. There were neighbors. It makes no sense to return to the scene of the abduction, that's what you're proposing, the girls being taken away and then returned to be dumped or killed where everyone is looking for them? AJMO

I'm not proposing anything. I'm simply offering my opinion that a person could hide in the woods at night even if there were searchers out and about.

How many people crossed High Bridge after dark, in your estimation?

 

[Vern]

I'm not proposing anything. I'm simply offering my opinion that a person could hide in the woods at night even if there were searchers out and about.

How many people crossed High Bridge after dark, in your estimation?

Maybe just the new guy to the story who was hiding in the woods overnight crossed the bridge?

How'd that guy make it into the theories? Is this some new theory being bantied about now?

Based on what evidence?

 

[sunshineray]

I'm not proposing anything. I'm simply offering my opinion that a person could hide in the woods at night even if there were searchers out and about.

How many people crossed High Bridge after dark, in your estimation?

What does anyone crossing the bridge at night, I'm assuming you mean searchers, have to do with anything? Do you not think the searchers were trying to look everywhere? A person hiding in the woods is a lot different that one or more people in the woods trying to either carry or march the girls to the crime scene from who knows how far away and then do the things the blood expert concluded happened to the girls, while still "hiding" in the woods.

I have to ask straight out, why would a killer(s) even want to come back to the place where people were searching? Did they hear on the news, oh hey they called the search off for the night, lets bring them back there? What person, who didn't want to get caught, would logically think that was a good idea? If they were lucky enough to abduct two girls in broad daylight from a public place now being searched by family, friends, other people, LE, firemen, what would be their motivation to return there?

 

[m00c0w]

The next defense strategy is probably “Okay, RA abducted the girls but really it was other people that killed them, honest. Look at all this non-evidence and speculation.”

Ironically I could see that being more successful than trying to vanish the phone for hours while the girls are being driven around Delphi.

MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Maybe just the new guy to the story who was hiding in the woods overnight crossed the bridge?

How'd that guy make it into the theories? Is this some new theory being bantied about now?

Based on what evidence?

Don't make my post into something it's not. I have no theory and I'm not trying to make it into one.

This is just a reply to all the people who say a person couldn't hide in the woods at night without being seen.
I've camped in the woods countless times and I know how dark a woods can be. I know a person can hide very well in the woods at night and remain unseen.

MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

What does anyone crossing the bridge at night, I'm assuming you mean searchers, have to do with anything? Do you not think the searchers were trying to look everywhere? A person hiding in the woods is a lot different that one or more people in the woods trying to either carry or march the girls to the crime scene from who knows how far away and then do the things the blood expert concluded happened to the girls, while still "hiding" in the woods.

I have to ask straight out, why would a killer(s) even want to come back to the place where people were searching? Did they hear on the news, oh hey they called the search off for the night, lets bring them back there? What person, who didn't want to get caught, would logically think that was a good idea? If they were lucky enough to abduct two girls in broad daylight from a public place now being searched by family, friends, other people, LE, firemen, what would be their motivation to return there?

You said "...the the mass of humanity out there searching for them?" so I was trying to get a feel as to where you thought this mass was. Do you think they crossed the bridge and went down the hill at night to look for them? Do you think they were tromping down that seep hill and all over RL's property at all hours of the night?

My opinion is I think there were quite a few searching the area but not specifically the area of the crime scene and east of it.

 

[photographer4]

Yes thank you, I was thinking of the wrong person. But that doesn’t change things, LE or any State investigator can’t be expected to state an opinion during a hearing or trial while testifying under oath as to whether the accused committed a crime. What would be the point? That’s for the jury to decide.

But the Prosecutor asked him if this is the point when BG abducted the kids. He says this is his understanding. In your response to me, you pointed out the same issue the D pointed out in their cross examination: this witness - his role was to examine the contents of the device. He can’t say for sure the kids were abducted or not etc.

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

Here is where the P asked him to say this is the point when the kids were abducted. Upthread is the screen as to where the same witness agreed with the D that he can’t say if the kids were abducted but I’ll post it below again anyhow since it’s handy:

 

[Arkay]

This is just a reply to all the people who say a person couldn't hide in the woods at night without being seen.
I've camped in the woods countless times and I know how dark a woods can be. I know a person can hide very well in the woods at night and remain unseen.

Oh, I agree the woods are dark at night. Easy enough to hide EXCEPT IMO when searchers are combing through.

According to this timeline from shortly after the murders, family was searching for them already between 2:30 PM, still light outside, until 5:30 PM.

When that was fruitless, by 5:30 PM, (dark in February) the family had contacted LE, the Fire Department, and rescue workers who all searched until midnight. Obviously they would have used a variety of lights at their disposal.

It’s my belief that had a murderer been hiding in the woods all that time he would have been found. Most particularly because the trees are mostly denuded in the winter.

Of course sadly the girls were not discovered until the next day, so it’s fair to say that the first searches did not reveal the girls. IMO that’s because they were obscured by the leaves, twigs and sticks.

Whereas from the point of view of the murderer, there is no advantage to hanging around. I believe the murderer would’ve jetted out of there ASAP after he had done what he wanted.

You seem like a decent person, @FrostedGlass, so I presume when you went camping in the dark, no one was shining a spotlight on you! Of course I don’t know, but I imagine you were more likely to camp in summer when the trees are heavily leafed. Very few of the people I know who love to go camping would go in winter.

JMO

DELPHI TIMELINE: The search for Libby & Abby's killer

On February 13, 2017, Liberty "Libby" German and Abigail "Abby" Williams went for a hike near the Monon High Bridge in Delphi. Here's a look at what has happened since that day.

www.wrtv.com

 

[photographer4]

Boy, does that bring back memories! We had just about every theory covered except for the one we have now.

It's kind of odd, IMO, that we haven't heard a word about wet clothing. I'm not a firm believer of the theory that he made them undress on the bridge side and carry their clothes across the creek.

I don’t buy this idea either. I do not have any idea how they ended up where they were found dead. But I doubt very highly anyone waded through the cold creek in this murder. I can imagine the kids were placed in a vehicle or something - I can imagine all kinds of things. But my mind doesn’t let me imagine anyone trying to have two naked terrified kids wading through cold water across the creek. Would they not have been visible crossing the creek to anyone who may have been in the area?

Moooo.

 

[photographer4]

Oh, I agree the woods are dark at night. Easy enough to hide EXCEPT IMO when searchers are combing through.

According to this timeline from shortly after the murders, family was searching for them already by 2:30 PM, still light outside.

When that was fruitless, by 5:30 PM, (dark in February) the family had contacted LE, the Fire Department, and rescue workers who all searched until midnight. Obviously they would have used a variety of lights at their disposal.

It’s my belief that had a murderer been hiding in the woods all that time he would have been found. Most particularly because the trees are mostly denuded in the winter.

Of course sadly the girls were not discovered until the next day, so it’s fair to say that the first searches did not reveal the girls. IMO that’s because they were obscured by the leaves, twigs and sticks.

Whereas from the point of view of the murderer, there is no advantage to hanging around. I believe the murderer would’ve jetted out of there ASAP after he had done what he wanted.

You seem like a decent person, @FrostedGlass, so I presume when you went camping in the dark, no one was shining a spotlight on you! Of course I don’t know, but I imagine you were more likely to camp in summer when the trees are heavily leafed. Very few of the people I know who love to go camping would go in winter.

JMO

DELPHI TIMELINE: The search for Libby & Abby's killer

On February 13, 2017, Liberty "Libby" German and Abigail "Abby" Williams went for a hike near the Monon High Bridge in Delphi. Here's a look at what has happened since that day.

www.wrtv.com

This timeline doesn’t match what Susan Hendricks wrote in her book “down the hill, my descent into the Delphi murders”. In that book, she asserted that DG pulled into the parking area where he was to meet the kids “a little after 3pm”. By 3:11 he called LG’s cell phone and had no response. I think she further asserts that he was walking looking for them by 3:30pm and calling BP to alert her…

The book also notes the police were called at 6pm when the kids weren’t found yet.



Again, the time line seems a bit unclear depending on which source one wants to review. I’m sure the state can clarify it but for now, it’s unclear imo.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Oh, I agree the woods are dark at night. Easy enough to hide EXCEPT IMO when searchers are combing through.

According to this timeline from shortly after the murders, family was searching for them already between 2:30 PM, still light outside, until 5:30 PM.

When that was fruitless, by 5:30 PM, (dark in February) the family had contacted LE, the Fire Department, and rescue workers who all searched until midnight. Obviously they would have used a variety of lights at their disposal.

It’s my belief that had a murderer been hiding in the woods all that time he would have been found. Most particularly because the trees are mostly denuded in the winter.

Of course sadly the girls were not discovered until the next day, so it’s fair to say that the first searches did not reveal the girls. IMO that’s because they were obscured by the leaves, twigs and sticks.

Whereas from the point of view of the murderer, there is no advantage to hanging around. I believe the murderer would’ve jetted out of there ASAP after he had done what he wanted.

You seem like a decent person, @FrostedGlass, so I presume when you went camping in the dark, no one was shining a spotlight on you! Of course I don’t know, but I imagine you were more likely to camp in summer when the trees are heavily leafed. Very few of the people I know who love to go camping would go in winter.

JMO

DELPHI TIMELINE: The search for Libby & Abby's killer

On February 13, 2017, Liberty "Libby" German and Abigail "Abby" Williams went for a hike near the Monon High Bridge in Delphi. Here's a look at what has happened since that day.

www.wrtv.com

Thanks for the compliment and you are correct that no one shined their light on me. Yes, I camped in the summer. However I owned wooded acreage so I know how the woods look in Indiana in all four seasons.

I'm not sold on the idea that searchers were all over the crime scene that night. I don't think they focused on that area; they thought the girls were injured - fell of the bridge or whatever or were with friends.

 

[Vern]

I'll go with the 'under oath' testimony for weight every time.

 

[photographer4]

I'll go with the 'under oath' testimony for weight every time.

I don’t always. Simply because I’m aware of perjury which I am NoT accusing anyone in this matter of, but which does happen on occasion. I prefer facts matched to evidence. Mooooo.

 

[statt#1]

I don’t buy this idea either. I do not have any idea how they ended up where they were found dead. But I doubt very highly anyone waded through the cold creek in this murder. I can imagine the kids were placed in a vehicle or something - I can imagine all kinds of things. But my mind doesn’t let me imagine anyone trying to have two naked terrified kids wading through cold water across the creek. Would they not have been visible crossing the creek to anyone who may have been in the area?

Moooo.

Speculative opinion....For them to not have crossed the creek, then the only way they could have accessed the area of the crime scene assuming they were forced from the area and returned at a later time that night would be from north of Deer Creek. Deer Creek runs E/W and W300N the same, E/W. They would have had to enter the CS under cover of darkness from a point near the field west of the Cemetery, to a point somewhere in the vicinity of RL's home, and east of there, south to the creek. The region of woods just south of RL's home, and a wee bit east, where there is a bend that approaches W300N, the terrain is quite steep at the creek bank, and likely not passable. So the area in question to return to the CS site would have to be the trail itself, leaving the trail before the bridge to pass through the woods, the field along W300N to the immediate west of the cemetery, and the area along W300N over to RL's home. One would have to assume that area of W300N was unoccupied overnight. I've highlighted in blue the area of concern, assuming they never crossed the creek to arrive at the CS site.

Edit to add...the length of roadway inside that blue circle on this map is around 2,000 feet, less than a half mile.

 

[sunshineray]

You said "...the the mass of humanity out there searching for them?" so I was trying to get a feel as to where you thought this mass was. Do you think they crossed the bridge and went down the hill at night to look for them? Do you think they were tromping down that seep hill and all over RL's property at all hours of the night?

My opinion is I think there were quite a few searching the area but not specifically the area of the crime scene and east of it.

And I strongly disagree with you. MO

 

[sunshineray]

Don't make my post into something it's not. I have no theory and I'm not trying to make it into one.

This is just a reply to all the people who say a person couldn't hide in the woods at night without being seen.
I've camped in the woods countless times and I know how dark a woods can be. I know a person can hide very well in the woods at night and remain unseen.

MOO

Where are the girls in that hiding scenario?