Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #196

[Andieinsyd]

The prosecutor had previously filed a request to amend charges to include two counts of murder while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping, two counts of murder, and two counts of kidnapping, arguing that the changes “more accurately aligns the charging information with the cause’s discovery and the probable cause affidavit”.
Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen has two charges dropped ahead of trial

I’m puzzled by the second location theory, can you all help me put it together? I understand RA has four murder charges. I think we have discussed that two are considered the most serious and sentences would reflect that, and two are slightly lesser. So if the Jury are convinced that it was RA on the bridge and kidnapped the girls which led to their murder he would be convicted on that charge (twice). But if the Jury was convinced that RA was the person who took them down the hill and killed Abby and Libby he would be convicted on the most serious charges. And that is the reason behind the second location theory..to move time of death to a time where RA has an alibi?
Can he actually be convicted of all four murders, or is it max two, depending on how the jury see the evidence? And does anyone know the difference in likely sentence between the charges?

 

[sunshineray]

Snipped by me:
We need more information.

We need to know what exactly is in view via the Hoosier Harvest store's camera?

Is it only pointed in one direction?

If so, which direction?

Is it a motion censored camera?

If so, would it pick up someone walking at a distance?

Did RA stay within the tree line after the crime until he got closer to his car and possibly out of the view of the camera?

Did RA even leave in his car right away?
I ask that because when BB's sketch was released at the 2019 presser, Doug Carter mentioned that they were looking for the driver of a car that was seen at the old CPS/Welfare building from Noon to 5 p.m. on February 14, 2017. The girls' were missing on the 13th and found on the 14th.
Did Carter make a mistake on the date?
Was he actually speaking about the day the girls' went missing on the 13th?
If so, the car they were interested in may have been there until 5 p.m.
If he really was speaking about February 14th, the day the girls' bodies were found, was it RA's car? It wouldn't be the first time a criminal came back to the area of their crime.

I can't wait for trial to learn more information but it is not about me, or any of us, it's ultimately about them (Libby and Abby).

This is dated April 24th, 5 days after the press conference.

"Police also said Monday that they were looking for information about a car parking in an abandoned CPS building parking lot, at 6931 W. 300 North in Delphi, between noon and 5 p.m. on Feb. 13, 2017."

Delphi murders: New suspect sketch not same man as in old sketch, ISP clarifies

As questions swirl over new direction in murders of Abby Williams and Libby German, ISP clarifies that sketches are meant to be different men. Only one’s a suspect.

www.jconline.com

 

[sunshineray]

The prosecutor had previously filed a request to amend charges to include two counts of murder while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping, two counts of murder, and two counts of kidnapping, arguing that the changes “more accurately aligns the charging information with the cause’s discovery and the probable cause affidavit”.
Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen has two charges dropped ahead of trial

I’m puzzled by the second location theory, can you all help me put it together? I understand RA has four murder charges. I think we have discussed that two are considered the most serious and sentences would reflect that, and two are slightly lesser. So if the Jury are convinced that it was RA on the bridge and kidnapped the girls which led to their murder he would be convicted on that charge (twice). But if the Jury was convinced that RA was the person who took them down the hill and killed Abby and Libby he would be convicted on the most serious charges. And that is the reason behind the second location theory..to move time of death to a time where RA has an alibi?
Can he actually be convicted of all four murders, or is it max two, depending on how the jury see the evidence? And does anyone know the difference in likely sentence between the charges?

The prosecution asked for 6 charges, the judged say the 4 would do. It's the, so far, failed SODDI defense that wants to bring other actors into the picture. With the charges now, either way, if the jury believes RA was on that bridge, he's convicted of murder. I think RA's biggest worry is his own words, the monumental number of his confessions, with details, that the jury will hear, watch and read. AJMO

 

[shonyakay]

This is dated April 24th, 5 days after the press conference.

"Police also said Monday that they were looking for information about a car parking in an abandoned CPS building parking lot, at 6931 W. 300 North in Delphi, between noon and 5 p.m. on Feb. 13, 2017."

Delphi murders: New suspect sketch not same man as in old sketch, ISP clarifies

As questions swirl over new direction in murders of Abby Williams and Libby German, ISP clarifies that sketches are meant to be different men. Only one’s a suspect.

www.jconline.com

Thanks.

Carter said February 14th at the presser.

Time stamp: 1:05

I wonder which date is correct?

 

[sunshineray]

Thanks.

Carter said February 14th at the presser.

Time stamp: 1:05

I wonder which date is correct?

IIRC it was corrected very shortly after the PC

 

[ClearAhead]

The prosecutor had previously filed a request to amend charges to include two counts of murder while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping, two counts of murder, and two counts of kidnapping, arguing that the changes “more accurately aligns the charging information with the cause’s discovery and the probable cause affidavit”.
Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen has two charges dropped ahead of trial

I’m puzzled by the second location theory, can you all help me put it together? I understand RA has four murder charges. I think we have discussed that two are considered the most serious and sentences would reflect that, and two are slightly lesser. So if the Jury are convinced that it was RA on the bridge and kidnapped the girls which led to their murder he would be convicted on that charge (twice). But if the Jury was convinced that RA was the person who took them down the hill and killed Abby and Libby he would be convicted on the most serious charges. And that is the reason behind the second location theory..to move time of death to a time where RA has an alibi?
Can he actually be convicted of all four murders, or is it max two, depending on how the jury see the evidence? And does anyone know the difference in likely sentence between the charges?

I wondered about the duplicate murder charges too, if convictions are determined on one or the other or both. Just recently AB was a member of the DT for another accused, this one a triple murder. The defendant was found guilty of both felony murder and murder charges so it’s possible RA could be convicted on all four counts for having committed the two murders, as charged.

Indianapolis man found guilty of 2021 triple homicide that fueled serial killer rumors

A man charged in the 2021 deaths of three young men found off a grassy path near I-465 has been found guilty.

www.indystar.com

 

[photographer4]

At what point should we expect the courtroom decorum order for the upcoming trial?

Do we expect any further hearings before the trial begins?

 

[photographer4]

Did we ever find out what happened that last hearing that was private and then why the public bit of the hearing was cancelled?

Delphi murder suspect's public hearing canceled; officials speak privately with relatives

New filings ask for subpoenas to be thrown out, question therapist's actions in the case.

www.jconline.com

 

[somequestions]

I'm confused as to what you're saying. RA lied, a few days after the murders, to DD about leaving at 3:30pm, because RA knew that SC had seen him walking back to his car at 3:57pm? Isn't that a lie that makes him look guilty, in hindsight of SC coming forward? Why wouldn't he have told DD he left at 1:30 right then and there, instead of waiting almost 6 years before changing his story?

I am asking about how we interpret Richard Allen lying. I am agreeing with the idea that Richard Allen changing his story to leaving at 1:30pm in 2022 makes him look guilty.

But your post asked the question. He would have to be lying both in 2017 and in 2022 if he is the person SC saw at 3:57pm, which is later than 3:30pm.

No one really knows how long the crime took place. Maybe it was over in 15-20 minutes or maybe it took an hour and a half from when the video timestamp of 2:13pm was recorded. I just do not understand why Richard Allen did not say he left at around 4pm if he was so concerned about not being seen and avoided being seen by the Hoosier Harvest store camera when he left in his car?

 

[girlhasnoname]

I am asking about how we interpret Richard Allen lying. I am agreeing with the idea that Richard Allen changing his story to leaving at 1:30pm in 2022 makes him look guilty.

But your post asked the question. He would have to be lying both in 2017 and in 2022 if he is the person SC saw at 3:57pm, which is later than 3:30pm.

No one really knows how long the crime took place. Maybe it was over in 15-20 minutes or maybe it took an hour and a half from when the video timestamp of 2:13pm was recorded. I just do not understand why Richard Allen did not say he left at around 4pm if he was so concerned about not being seen and avoided being seen by the Hoosier Harvest store camera when he left in his car?

Why does anyone guilty of crimes like these lie? They can’t keep their story straight because they don’t know how much LE knows.

RA was probably hedging his bet in 2022 that someone saw him on the trails (he knows the girls saw him for sure because he admitted to seeing them also) and on the walk back to his car or maybe LE told him they had witnesses placing him there.

I don’t think LE divulged much information pointing to him being BG in fear of him going on the run or getting rid of potential evidence.

I do wonder if we’ll find out he was under heavy surveillance from the time of the interview, SW and arrest. Maybe they collected his DNA surreptitiously from his discarded trash? Or used the water bottle from the SW for GGI.

JMO

 

[shonyakay]

I am asking about how we interpret Richard Allen lying. I am agreeing with the idea that Richard Allen changing his story to leaving at 1:30pm in 2022 makes him look guilty.

But your post asked the question. He would have to be lying both in 2017 and in 2022 if he is the person SC saw at 3:57pm, which is later than 3:30pm.

No one really knows how long the crime took place. Maybe it was over in 15-20 minutes or maybe it took an hour and a half from when the video timestamp of 2:13pm was recorded. I just do not understand why Richard Allen did not say he left at around 4pm if he was so concerned about not being seen and avoided being seen by the Hoosier Harvest store camera when he left in his car?

If you (in general) believe RA is innocent you will probably choose to believe RA left in his car at 3:30 p.m. like he told DD in 2017.
If so though, what was he doing from the time he was seen heading towards the bridge by the girls' just before 2:00 p.m. and when he supposedly left in his car at 3:30 p.m.?
There was no sightng that we know of, of BG or RA leaving via the Freedom Bridge where he entered.

If you (in general) believe RA is guilty you will probably believe RA left the trails at 3:30 p.m. like he also told DD in 2017.
If so, this aligns perfectly with the SC sighting.
From the time he says he was on the trails (1:30 p.m. - 3:30 p.m.) to the time of SC's sighting (3:57 p.m.) is 27 minutes.
How long would it take someone to walk from the crime scene back to their car parked at the former CPS building?
When I look at Google maps 27 minutes seems
accurate.

Sidenote: None of us know exactly where on 300 N SC saw the man. We have to wait for trial for that particular info.

 

[photographer4]

Why does anyone guilty of crimes like these lie? They can’t keep their story straight because they don’t know how much LE knows.

RA was probably hedging his bet in 2022 that someone saw him on the trails (he knows the girls saw him for sure because he admitted to seeing them also) and on the walk back to his car or maybe LE told him they had witnesses placing him there.

I don’t think LE divulged much information pointing to him being BG in fear of him going on the run or getting rid of potential evidence.

I do wonder if we’ll find out he was under heavy surveillance from the time of the interview, SW and arrest. Maybe they collected his DNA surreptitiously from his discarded trash? Or used the water bottle from the SW for GGI.

JMO

But if they had dna from RA that connected him to the crime, would the D have been legally allowed to say no dna connects him to the crime scene? Apparently that’s what Jerry Holeman testified to per the franks 1:

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion.pdf

www.scribd.com

Section V for those who want to read it.

ETA: Liggett also apparently testified to no dna etc. Attaching a screenshot for ease of access:

 

[shonyakay]

No one really knows how long the crime took place. Maybe it was over in 15-20 minutes or maybe it took an hour and a half from when the video timestamp of 2:13pm was recorded. I just do not understand why Richard Allen did not say he left at around 4pm if he was so concerned about not being seen and avoided being seen by the Hoosier Harvest store camera when he left in his car?

In regards to the timeframe of the crime?
LE specifically gave the timeframe of 2:30 p.m. to 3:30 p.m. as to when the girls' were killed.
I am sure they didn't just randomly pick that timeframe.

It's possible RA did lie to DD when he says he left at 3:30 p.m., whether in his car or from the trails, because he knows a witness (SC) potentially saw him in disarray just right after that timeframe at 3:57 p.m.

However he didn't need to lie about the earlier timeframe (1:30 to 3:30 p.m.) in 2017 because he didn't know yet what Libby's phone would reveal.

 

[photographer4]

In regards to the timeframe of the crime?
LE specifically gave the timeframe of 2:30 p.m. to 3:30 p.m. as to when the girls' were killed.
I am sure they didn't just randomly pick that timeframe.

It's possible RA did lie to DD when he says he left at 3:30 p.m., whether in his car or from the trails, because he knows a witness (SC) potentially saw him in disarray just right after that timeframe at 3:57 p.m.

However he didn't need to lie about the earlier timeframe (1:30 to 3:30 p.m.) in 2017 because he didn't know yet what Libby's phone would reveal.

The investigators have actually said there was no data on LG’s phone that linked RA to the crimes. Would this not include the video / photos she took on the bridge that day? This makes me think they can’t be 100% certain it’s RA based on physical appearance / voice of the person in the video compared directly to RA.

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion.pdf

www.scribd.com

 

[ClearAhead]

But if they had dna from RA that connected him to the crime, would the D have been legally allowed to say no dna connects him to the crime scene? Apparently that’s what Jerry Holeman testified to per the franks 1:

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion.pdf

www.scribd.com

Section V for those who want to read it.

Page 9 of the document very specifically refers to ‘crime scene’ which is puzzling since we already know that is not true because of the bullet that was found.

Regardless a crime scene is defined as a location where a crime occurred. But DNA connecting someone to a location isn’t saying much as that doesn’t necessarily prove they committed a crime, they might’ve walked there days or weeks before and dropped something or spit on the ground. (RA already stated he didn’t accidentally drop the bullet, had never been there before.)

But what’s significant is if DNA that connects RA to the victims and Holeman didn’t say one way or another.

This is just more spin from the D. A frank’s Motion is intended to prove LE lied when obtaining a search warrant. DNA testing to connect to the victims would be undertaken on items seized AFTER the search was complete, so what’s the point?


MOO

 

[photographer4]

Page 9 of the document specifically refers to ‘crime scene’ which is puzzling since we already know that is not true because of the bullet that was found.

Regardless a crime scene is defined as a location where a crime occurred. But DNA connecting someone to a location isn’t saying much as that doesn’t necessarily prove they committed a crime, they might’ve walked there days or weeks before and dropped something or spit on the ground. (RA already stated he didn’t accidentally drop the bullet, had never been there before.)

But what’s significant is if DNA that connects RA to the victims and Holeman didn’t say one way or another.


MOO

Wouldn’t that make holeman a liar by omission then? Are depositions done under oath?

Edited: I see what you’re saying now on rereading. They say to the crime scene but you think maybe there is a diff between the crime scene and the actual victims within the crime scene? Eg: maybe his dna was ON a victim but can’t be defined as being his dna at the crime scene?

Have I understood you better upon edit?

 

[Ravenmoon]

I am asking about how we interpret Richard Allen lying. I am agreeing with the idea that Richard Allen changing his story to leaving at 1:30pm in 2022 makes him look guilty.

But your post asked the question. He would have to be lying both in 2017 and in 2022 if he is the person SC saw at 3:57pm, which is later than 3:30pm.

No one really knows how long the crime took place. Maybe it was over in 15-20 minutes or maybe it took an hour and a half from when the video timestamp of 2:13pm was recorded. I just do not understand why Richard Allen did not say he left at around 4pm if he was so concerned about not being seen and avoided being seen by the Hoosier Harvest store camera when he left in his car?

Perhaps his statement was specific to leaving the trails around 3:30, and doesn't account for the account for the period of time it took him to potentially dispose of items and walk back to his vehicle.


JMO

 

[ClearAhead]

Wouldn’t that make holeman a liar by omission then? Are depositions done under oath?

Edited: I see what you’re saying now on rereading. They say to the crime scene but you think maybe there is a diff between the crime scene and the actual victims within the crime scene? Eg: maybe his dna was ON a victim but can’t be defined as being his dna at the crime scene?

Have I understood you better upon edit?

Yes it wouldn’t stand out so much if it was stated “nothing connects RA to the crime” as opposed to “crime scene”. IIRC have seen other examples of the D midleading through selective wording.

I really doubt DT wouldn’t have wasted so much time and energy on trying to get the SW tossed if nothing was found to connect RA to the murders.

 

[sunshineray]

I am asking about how we interpret Richard Allen lying. I am agreeing with the idea that Richard Allen changing his story to leaving at 1:30pm in 2022 makes him look guilty.

But your post asked the question. He would have to be lying both in 2017 and in 2022 if he is the person SC saw at 3:57pm, which is later than 3:30pm.

No one really knows how long the crime took place. Maybe it was over in 15-20 minutes or maybe it took an hour and a half from when the video timestamp of 2:13pm was recorded. I just do not understand why Richard Allen did not say he left at around 4pm if he was so concerned about not being seen and avoided being seen by the Hoosier Harvest store camera when he left in his car?

All questions to be asked an answered at trial, I'm sure.

 

[Ravenmoon]

Frank's Motions are written with the goal of getting a search warrant or certain evidence thrown out of trial.( If I am understanding correctly)

"The defense will not be granted a hearing unless it can identify arguably reliable evidence supporting its claim that the person who signed the warrant affidavit intentionally or recklessly included false facts in the document. "

I seriously have lost count of the number of FM's filed by the defense , but I believe that it is 4.

After 4 attempts, I tend to believe that the Search warrant didn't have any false information.

I have to ask why the issues of DNA and phone records would be in question regarding the actual search warrant? Would that not be a separate issue for trial and not needed to obtain said right to search Allen's property?



If Liggett and Holeman were directed to ONLY speak to the evidence preceding the SW, then that would explain why ( at that time) there was no DNA or electronic connection. At least at that time.

Was this evidence found during the search itself, hence the desperation to get the search warrant tossed?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fox59....-against-richard-allen-in-delphi-murders/amp/
https://www.tpatrialattorneys.com/franks-motion-federal-cases/