Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #196

[StarryStarryNight]

I watched a trial once where a man dismembered his victims and disposed of one victim's lower body parts in a nature reserve. At his trial, the prosecution called to the stand a woman who was playing with her grandchild in the front yard of a house when she observed a man walking into the nature reserve area on the day in question. She did not see him close up, and could not identify his face or say the defendant was THE person she had seen, but she was able to describe the general appearance of him (his race, his build) and that he carried a backpack, where he was walking and the direction that he went. The value of this testimony was not that she could identify him specifically, but to establish that someone who reasonably looked like him was in the area that the body parts were found, and to shore up digital evidence from his cell phone (Snap Chat, I believe) that showed his location in that same area at the exact same time.

This is an example of how investigators use evidence that "stacks;" in and of itself, a particular piece may not "prove," especially BARD, but it contributes to an overall timeline of what we can say reasonably happened from looking at the evidence as a whole.

I have been thinking along these lines but could not put my thoughts together well enough to explain it.
You did it brilliantly!

 

[photographer4]

Just want to point out that it appears Holeman went after RA pretty hard while questioning him in 2022, yet RA didn't appear to be intimidated by him since he told Holeman directly that he (Holeman) was going to pay for what he's done to his (RA's) wife.

I have commented on this as well in the past. That remark by RA makes me think he is guilty of something here in whole or in part (among other things but this comment really stands out to me!)

 

[m00c0w]

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I have provided the screen shots from the franks in question which can be found here - https://www.scribd.com/document/672126677/DELPHI-Memorandum-in-Support-of-Motion-pdf
If she only decided around the time when RA was arrested (eg: a photo lineup if one was done before they arrested him or a line up post arrest for instance - I do NOT know if this happened, so merely an example)... then I'm afraid that is concerning imo. I would worry if I were a juror that she had been swayed by LE even unintentionally. Eyewitness accuracy in police lineups

My only point is that neither witness “was adamant that the man SHE saw was NOT RA.” BB took issue with a sketch back in 2017-2019. We have little idea how BB feels about RA being consistent with the man she saw. It’s extremely possible we will hear from her at trial on behalf of the prosecution if what Mullins is saying is true.

Again, BB did not adamantly deny RA being the person she saw.

JMO

 

[Megnut]

And upon closer inspection, Leggitt didn't say what the Defense attorneys say he would have said. They invented the entire paragraph attributed to him for what they say he ought to have said, and no one can set that record straight without breaching the gag order. It's good to remember too that the Franks motions didn't even reach the threshold for a hearing and the judge deemed that there was no deception in the search warrants which means the Defense attorneys were simply blowing in the breeze. No merit to their wild speculation.

Putting imaginary words into witnesses' mouths is a new low.

JMO

 

[shonyakay]

I have commented on this as well in the past. That remark by RA makes me think he is guilty of something here in whole or in part (among other things but this comment really stands out to me!)

It stood out to me too.

 

[photographer4]

My only point is that neither witness “was adamant that the man SHE saw was NOT RA.” BB took issue with a sketch back in 2017-2019. We have little idea how BB feels about RA being consistent with the man she saw. It’s extremely possible we will hear from her at trial on behalf of the prosecution if what Mullins is saying is true.

Again, BB did not adamantly deny RA being the person she saw.

JMO

Ok fair enough. I see what you’re saying here. But if the man she saw was a young puffy haired guy etc and she feels her sketch matches the guy she saw 100%…. I don’t honestly see how it could be RA? I see no likeness between the sketches at all and am further confused as Le have said it’s the same guy in both then said not the same guy in both… acknowledged by the deposition of Holeman - linked by a member thread (it’s saved to device so I can’t link it directly).

It does not seem all Le believe(d?) it was the same guy in both either really. MOO.

Anything is possible!

 

[sunshineray]

He did not confess under interrogation. All his confessions, it seems, came after he came to God too...supposedly. He even put his intent to admit his guilt in writing to the warden, freely and not under coercion (paraphrasing), so it said in the judge's ruling when all RA's confessions and incriminating statements where ruled admissible.
That's all quite remarkable and damning.
AJMO on the facts.

It was because of the claims of that supposed rune claim by the defense, MO. Otherwise the blood at the scene is self-explanatory by testing the blood, Abby was here, Libby was here, here and here. In LE's minds, after investigations, there was nothing to back up the Odinists. But the D just had to keep at it and find their sacrificial ritual killing expert. So LE called in a blood spatter expert. It makes sense to me.
AJMO

Sorry about these two posts being put together. Don't know how that happened

 

[katydid23]

Yeah I know he didn’t during interrogation. I still worry about the possible use of the Reid Technique on him and other issues noted above. It really sounds like the isolation / prison conditions

Hr was NOT isolated. He had a tablet that he used to call his wife, mother, attorneys, friends, whenever he felt like it.

He had trustee inmates sitting at his front door 24/7, so he was not even alone.

He had a psychiatrist that visited him EVERY DAY to check on him.

That is not isolation. Sure, he was incarcerated. But he was not isolated. And the D strongly misconstrued his prison conditions. He was the only one sleeping in a DOUBLE cell, so it was not cramped quarters.

He could watch movies or read books or get music on his tablet. He could review his Discovery. He had shower time and exercise time every other day.

drove him more than a little mental imo.

He had mental health problems BEFORE he was incarcerated.

Maybe the conditions plus or perhaps lack of appropriate medications they may have used on him added to his issues.

Maybe...Or maybe his massive guilt and regret from his horrible actions were weighing on him?

Who knows. I’m hoping that we see a good amount of air tight evidence in trial!

I bet we will.

 

[m00c0w]

Ok fair enough. I see what you’re saying here. But if the man she saw was a young puffy haired guy etc and she feels her sketch matches the guy she saw 100%…. I don’t honestly see how it could be RA? I see no likeness between the sketches at all and am further confused as Le have said it’s the same guy in both then said not the same guy in both… acknowledged by the deposition of Holeman - linked by a member thread (it’s saved to device so I can’t link it directly).

It does not seem all Le believe(d?) it was the same guy in both either really. MOO.

Anything is possible!

Don’t let the defense’s wordplay get you. She said the man could have been in his 30s (p107, Franks 1). The defense tries to minimize that tidbit as much as possible. RA looks very young for his age (he didn’t look nearly 50 in his booking photos), so I could easily see him looking like he’s in his 30s at 45 from a distance. I’ll let BB decide if RA matches the man she saw versus trying to make sense from a defense document that’s obviously trying to muddy the waters to reach a specific outcome.

JMO

 

[steeltowngirl]

There was communication between AS account and Libby prior to and up until February 13, 2017.

Imo it's a huge coincidence. This perv was talking to so many young girls including Libby's friends.

Did you happen to listen to information from those who attended the recent hearings regarding Vito's testimony?

I listened to several YouTubes, but can’t recall specifics regarding Vito’s testimony. I was aware that someone who shall not be named was deemed not connected. I guess it could be coincidence, but it’s quite the coincidence that Libby was being catfished.

Keeping with TOS, is there a specific MSM you can guide me to? I’m interested to hear if catfishing (by anyone) was discussed at the hearings, and dismissed by prosecution as having any connection to the murders.

 

[shonyakay]

I listened to several YouTubes, but can’t recall specifics regarding Vito’s testimony. I was aware that someone who shall not be named was deemed not connected. I guess it could be coincidence, but it’s quite the coincidence that Libby was being catfished.

Keeping with TOS, is there a specific MSM you can guide me to? I’m interested to hear if catfishing (by anyone) was discussed at the hearings, and dismissed by prosecution as having any connection to the murders.

It is quite a coincidence and then some things that were said and done by this individual after the fact is also fishy.

But sometimes a coincidence is really just a coincidence.

I think about the Jacob Wetterling case and how the majority of people thought the neighbor man had to have kidnapped him because it was such an isolated road and no one knew in advance those kids would be out riding their bikes/scooter to the store that night. Turns out it was a pedophile who kidnapped Jacob and he just happened to be on that same lonely stretch of road that night.

Vito's testimony transcript should be available very soon. The lady that purchased the transcripts mentioned the rest of the transcripts should be available at the end of this month.

I can't link the particular person I got the Vito testimony details from because they are not an approved source here. However, MS who are an approved source had this particular person on their show.

 

[photographer4]

Hr was NOT isolated. He had a tablet that he used to call his wife, mother, attorneys, friends, whenever he felt like it.

He had trustee inmates sitting at his front door 24/7, so he was not even alone.

He had a psychiatrist that visited him EVERY DAY to check on him.

That is not isolation. Sure, he was incarcerated. But he was not isolated. And the D strongly misconstrued his prison conditions. He was the only one sleeping in a DOUBLE cell, so it was not cramped quarters.

He could watch movies or read books or get music on his tablet. He could review his Discovery. He had shower time and exercise time every other day.

He had mental health problems BEFORE he was incarcerated.

Maybe...Or maybe his massive guilt and regret from his horrible actions were weighing on him?

I bet we will.

to me if he was held in a cell, and not free to come and go at all - thats isolation. Just because he could call people doesn’t mean they took his calls. Those “trustees” - I lack well, trust for. The doc visiting? Still I wouldn’t trust them tbh. The staff don’t care for the inmates in the way a doc you choose would imo. How big was the cell? Maybe the size of a bathroom? Or a smallll bedroom? Daylight access? What aside a tablet did he have to occupy the time? Tablet and what a bible? How noisy is the place? How could he drown out the noise if at all to find rest or feel safe? Maybe it’s just me - but the inability to even leave my house to go shopping for a change of scenery was isolating and depressing! Not eat your poop level but still….. not an experience I would want to relive for two weeks let alone two years worth! And I have the creature comforts of home!! Moooooooi

 

[photographer4]

Don’t let the defense’s wordplay get you. She said the man could have been in his 30s (p107, Franks 1). The defense tries to minimize that tidbit as much as possible. RA looks very young for his age (he didn’t look nearly 50 in his booking photos), so I could easily see him looking like he’s in his 30s at 45 from a distance. I’ll let BB decide if RA matches the man she saw versus trying to make sense from a defense document that’s obviously trying to muddy the waters to reach a specific outcome.

JMO

Yeah I hear ya. I just learned up thread that she and SC didn’t want to help with sketches and ended up doing so. I wonder what convinced them to do them? This case must haunt them and everyone else connected to it. I hope she’s certain of who / what she saw and it isn’t because it was suggested in any way! So many studies on the issues of witness statements…. I think I linked one thread and many in recent months. I just really hope the state can show no one “helped” (my term) her memory along.

 

[steeltowngirl]

It is quite a coincidence and then some things that were said and done by this individual after the fact is also fishy.

But sometimes a coincidence is really just a coincidence.

I think about the Jacob Wetterling case and how the majority of people thought the neighbor man had to have kidnapped him because it was such an isolated road and no one knew in advance those kids would be out riding their bikes/scooter to the store that night. Turns out it was a pedophile who kidnapped Jacob and he just happened to be on that same lonely stretch of road that night.

Vito's testimony transcript should be available very soon. The lady that purchased the transcripts mentioned the rest of the transcripts should be available at the end of this month.

I can't link the particular person I got the Vito testimony details from because they are not an approved source here. However, MS who are an approved source had this particular person on their show.

Thank you. I was able to locate a source for Vito’s testimony. and I hear ya. If I remove any thoughts of RA having involved himself with others, or having been connected via an online presence, then I have to consider that my long-held theory that the girls were targeted may also not be valid.

A random act of violence.
The only real motive: SA / Rage.
Vicious.
Senseless.

jmo

 

[photographer4]

Thank you. I was able to locate a source for Vito’s testimony. and I hear ya. If I remove any thoughts of RA having involved himself with others, or having been connected via an online presence, then I have to consider that my long-held theory that the girls were targeted may also not be valid.

A random act of violence.
The only real motive: SA / Rage.
Vicious.
Senseless.

jmo

Even just reading your post took me aback. Rage. Vicious. Senseless. : (

 

[katydid23]

to me if he was held in a cell, and not free to come and go at all - thats isolation.

Then what are you suggesting? Should he be out on bail? How can someone be incarcerated and NOT be held in a cell?

Isolation means you are not allowed any human contact. That's not the case with him. He is not isolated. He is inarcerated but not isolated.

Just because he could call people doesn’t mean they took his calls.

Whose fault would that be? If his wife and family and attorneys and friends won't take his calls, what can anyone do about that?

Those “trustees” - I lack well, trust for. The doc visiting? Still I wouldn’t trust them tbh. The staff don’t care for the inmates in the way a doc you choose would imo.

So it doesn't count that he could call anyone he wanted to call, and he had other inmates sitting by his cell to protect him from himself, as well as a psychiatrist checking on him each day? And cameras on him 24/7 ? Even with ALL of the above, you want to label him as 'isolated' ---which means all alone?

How big was the cell? Maybe the size of a bathroom?

What does one expect when incarcerated? He had a double cell.

Or a smallll bedroom? Daylight access? What aside a tablet did he have to occupy the time? Tablet and what a bible?

He was offered a tv in his cell and he refused it. So I guess he wasn't too bored.

The tablet had books, music, films, documentaries, and classes that he could take, as well as telephone access. Wouldn't that occupy some time?

How noisy is the place? How could he drown out the noise if at all to find rest or feel safe?

Incarceration has it's drawbacks and noise is probably one of them. But what do you suggest?

Maybe it’s just me - but the inability to even leave my house to go shopping for a change of scenery was isolating and depressing!

If you were arrested and accused of killing two young girls, you'd have to get used being held in your cell while things were being sorted out. That's how things work.

Not eat your poop level but still….. not an experience I would want to relive for two weeks let alone two years worth! And I have the creature comforts of home!! Moooooooi

No one would want to have that awful experience. But they didn't just pick his name out of a hat.

 

[susiQ]

New video out by Lawyer Lee.

 

[photographer4]

Then what are you suggesting? Should he be out on bail? How can someone be incarcerated and NOT be held in a cell?

Isolation means you are not allowed any human contact. That's not the case with him. He is not isolated. He is inarcerated but not isolated.

Whose fault would that be? If his wife and family and attorneys and friends won't take his calls, what can anyone do about that?

So it doesn't count that he could call anyone he wanted to call, and he had other inmates sitting by his cell to protect him from himself, as well as a psychiatrist checking on him each day? And cameras on him 24/7 ? Even with ALL of the above, you want to label him as 'isolated' ---which means all alone?

What does one expect when incarcerated? He had a double cell.

He was offered a tv in his cell and he refused it. So I guess he wasn't too bored.

The tablet had books, music, films, documentaries, and classes that he could take, as well as telephone access. Wouldn't that occupy some time?

Incarceration has it's drawbacks and noise is probably one of them. But what do you suggest?

If you were arrested and accused of killing two young girls, you'd have to get used being held in your cell while things were being sorted out. That's how things work.

No one would want to have that awful experience. But they didn't just pick his name out of a hat.

It almost seems as though they did actually kinda randomly pick his name. There doesn’t seem to be much to tie him to the murders. Him being at the start of the bridge doesn’t make him the killer - makes him a dude at the start of the bridge (until the state proves otherwise, and I am hoping they do!).

A bullet that may or may not match his gun is questionable evidence imo - because the it just doesn’t seem very reliable per some of the articles I’ve been reading (but maybe the state can make a persuasive air tight argument given other things they have in evidence that back this claim that it’s his bullet up).

The Field of Firearms Forensics Is Flawed

The matching of bullets to guns is subjective, and courts are starting to question it because of testimony from scientific experts

www.scientificamerican.com

Maryland Supreme Court limits testimony on bullet-matching evidence

The ruling is likely the first by a state supreme court to undercut the popular forensic technique.

reason.com

The D has told us about various things in Franks that don’t link him to the crime scene (and we recently discussed the ways they may have used tricky wording to conceal things and I acknowledge this could be the case).

He clearly has mental health issues from before the crime and post crime per testimony at the recent three day hearings. But it doesn’t make him a killer on its own (again, tricky wording and possibly the state has more to show us yet).

He made statements since his arrest ok well, as noted in earlier comments of mine he isn’t the first and won’t be the last to do so. So I hope to learn way more at trial.

It’s easy to say he’s not isolated and why not but I don’t think how he was held is reasonable by any humane standard. I don’t want his case and treatment to become precedent and I believe it’s a slippery slope when the state can hold you as they have him - without a trial; for nearly two years. Prison is fine for the convicts. Social and physical isolation for the accused - without a system of checks and balances to ensure his care / rights etc are met? I’m not ok with it. Not for him or anyone not convicted yet. Mooooooo

 

[sunshineray]

RA was interviewed and arrested in October, 2022 and his two month long period of 60+ confessions began a few months later, March/April of 2023. yes, the Reid technique which you site has resulted in false confessions during interrogations but even RA’s DT did not allege it was involved. The Judge has already ruled RA’s confessions were voluntary and not coerced. It will be up to the jury to weigh the legitimacy.

Repeating 61 confessions is a whole lot of times. If I was a juror, hearing that RA was spouting off about his guilt to anyone who’d listen that many times would have me wondering about his overall state of mental wellbeing including on and around Feb 13, 2017 as well. JMO

If I was a juror I'd also be wondering why his lawyers are ignoring ALL those confessions and incriminating statements, their client's wish to plead guilty. That would strike me as extremely perplexing, especially after confessing to his mother and wife. JMO

I wonder what the prosecution's opening statement is going to be like. Are his confessions going to be talked about in detail? Are we going to hear quotes? I hope someone who takes shorthand is in the courtroom, besides the court reporter.

 

[sunshineray]

We may get some answers and or theories. But I don’t know that I’ll ever really feel I understand how or why anyone could or would do this to two kids!

Since in the 3 day hearing, one of LE's testimony, I believe it was Harshman, said that included in RA's confessions was his motive, we may hear exactly what his thought process was for slaying two young girls. You're right though, whatever it was, there's no understanding it. There's only horror at it having been done. MO