Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #197

[photographer4]

1. Conservation officers are literally sworn law enforcement officers, able to conduct investigations and effect arrests. You make it sound like DD was just some dude whose job was looking for forest fires and handing out maps or something. He was, in fact, a law enforcement officer. It makes sense that they were using whoever was available.

2. You talk a lot about eyewitnesses and how they're fallible, open to suggestion, etc... I'm not sure why this person (who it's not even clear is talking about the right day to begin with...) is so much more trustworthy. As far as I can tell, his statements haven't been corroborated independently (he says his friend saw the same thing, but that's all coming from the same single source), while the other witnesses have at least some commonalities with each other. That, plus RA says he parked next to an old building, and that's pretty much the only old building that was there that fits his described activities (along with camera footage backing it up)... I don't find this guy's testimony to be super convincing that everyone else is wrong and this one person is the actual true witness.

JMO

I'm not suggesting only this guy is correct. I'm not even saying he is. I'm asking: when he gave the interview to Grey Hughes, he seems to suggest that Le were interested in a car at CPS. The way he tells it, the LE seemed disinterested in the car he reported having seen. I wonder if they did follow up on that particular car or not? If not, why not?

I acknowledge - I didn't notice if the caller said what day he spoke with LE, or if he was certain he had the correct day or how he may have been certain. I'm only asking: did LE follow up on this car or not?

 

[Vern]

I would only be guessing.
But, but from where we stand today (hindsight I suppose?)
I believe that the P was expecting to find that someone helped RA cover up the crime.

As to keeping the records sealed:

We don't have any proof at all that it was the motivation for stating other actors had some level of involvement.

If that's the case, the defense made sure that information found it's way into the public domain anyway.

It seems to be coming back to bite them ( the D) because now their original story will never come into the jury.

Sometimes, less is more. Too bad they just couldn't keep their mouths from running.


JMO

Well, records can be kept sealed in Indiana for numerous reasons, including if a judge finds reason to keep them that way for a period of time (last para).

https://www.in.gov/courts/iocs/files/pubs-trial-court-sealed-cases.pdf

I'd wager that if they were a continuing investigation to rule out any other perpatrators to the crime or someone providing a false alibi etc, that would be a just legal reason to seal from public access so as not to impede or compromise any required further investigation.

Huge file attached. One is better off to just "Cntrl + F" and seek out "seal".

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/23863585/delphidocs.pdf

Page 225: State Requests Sealing (28 October 2022)

1. That the public interest will be secured by the sealing of the record;
2. That dissemination of the information contained in the record will create a serious andimminent danger to the public interest;
3. That any prejudicial effect created by dissemination of the information cannot be avoidedby any reasonable method other than sealingofthe record;
4. That there is a substantial probability that sealingof the record will be effective inprotecting the public interest against the perceived danger;
5. That the public interest will be substantially served by prohibiting access for the reason] that the releaseof the information might damage an ongoing murder investigation; or;
6. That access or dissemination of the Court Record will create a significant risk ofsubstantial harm to the requestor, other persons, or the general public.

Challenge of Sealing by Murder Sheet is at Page 99;
Media Intervenor's at Page 104;

Page 160 finds confirmation that RA and his lawyers had been given access to the sealed documents, just not the public.

Page 183 sees the original sealing by Judge Diener;

Page 187 sees the Public Hearing set to discuss unsealing by Judge Diener;

Page 197 sees the Public Hearing and ruling to now unseal the docments by Judge Diener (pending the bold bit by me below):

“The Court notes that the Prosecuting Attorney submitted Charging Informations and a ProbableCause Affidavit at the November 22, 2022, hearing that was redacted, eliminating the witnesses’ namesand identifying personal informationofthe defendant, Those documents will be released to the publicand made part of the record of this cause. The original Charging Informations and Affidavit ofProbable Cause shall remain as sealed and confidential Court records as they are not redacted.

The Court further finds that the Media Intervenors’ Motion for Leave to Intervene is moot, andtherefore, denied.

Court Orders that the redacted Charging Informations and Affidavit for Probable Cause, submitted by the State at the hearing conducted on November 22, 2022, be filed with the Clerk of the Court with this Order, and further that the Clerk shall not release (without prior Court approval) the original, sealed unredacted Informations and Affidavit.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Still doesn’t prove that RA spoke to DD after the girls were found deceased.
As I showed in an earlier post there was a public outcry on the evening of 2/13 that any individuals with knowledge of the whereabouts of Abby and Libby or any related info call Carroll County Police Department.
The Franks is the only document that infers that RA called the tip line. The Franks does not provide a date or time to support what is being speculated here.
And the franks did not hold up under scrutiny.

All my opinion.

To each his own interpretation.
Mine is: he called into the tip line (not the CCPD), the tip line was set up on Feb 16. Unfortunately, the girls were dead before then.

 

[sunshineray]

Ok, does anyone have a source that says that he spoke to DD BEFORE the kids were found dead? Because I do not. I have that RA contacted the "tipline". It seems to me they wouldn't create a "tipline" until the kids were found dead since they called off the search for the night.... so MOOO here... I checked, even teh original Probable Cause doesn't mention the date that he spoke to DD OR actually, that it was DD he spoke with. My source is Franks 1 as I linked. Its clear he called a tipline. Anyone got one to say when that tipline was created? I'm out of time for this... so MOOOOOO he called after the kids were found dead.

Would calling the Sheriff's office be considered calling a "tip line"? But I have to say, the way the DT have spun things in the past, I can't take their word on anything really. RA could have seen DD in the grocery store parking lot and struck up a conversation? Maybe he knew DD? That could have happened when the girls were still missing. MO

 

[Vern]

To each his own interpretation.
Mine is: he called into the tip line (not the CCPD), the tip line was set up on Feb 16. Unfortunately, the girls were dead before then.

So it was statement of opinion vice a statement of fact then. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[Arkay]

I think, when this case goes before the jury, the investigative legwork will be impressive, for how LE closed the gap, why it took so long and why was going on behind the scenes all along.

Right just because the police weren’t discussing details of the investigation with the caller at the fair doesn’t mean it wasn’t thoroughly investigated.
Also the fact that they wouldn’t comment on the color or details of the car at cps to someone fishing for information means that they were protecting the integrity of the investigation.

Agree and agree.

I am as curious and as impatient as anyone else, but I’ve always felt very strongly that LE does not and should not tip their hand to the general public about all they know, prior to trial.

The court of public opinion is obviously not equivalent to a court of law.

There’s a lot I’d love to know this very second, but the number one factor is for Abby, Libby, and victims everywhere to receive justice.

Personally, as much curiosity as I have, I do not want to know anything that could potentially impede justice being served.

IMO LE typically has much more info than we know, but cannot share until court.

I was blown away at the Murdaugh trial when they showed that video proving he was at the dog crates when he said he was asleep. To me that proved his guilt.

I’m content with LE and the DA withholding evidence until the appropriate venue—-the trial.

In my teeny tiny bit of experience with this, on the first July 4th after 9/11, I was going to a 4th of July celebration in Manhattan in 2002, and my cousin, a Fed detective, told me not to go. He absolutely would not give me the reason why because I’m a civilian and it was not my place to know what he knew.
He’s retired now and I still don’t know.

This is the purview of LE and the State’s case, wherever it may be. I’m okay with revealing the PCA just so the public has an idea of “why this guy?”

As to the rest, we will know all when the trial is here.

@Vern thank you for the daily countdown.

All JMO and 1% experience.

 

[somequestions]

Yes their reactions scream “shut up, we really don’t want to know”.

Plus it appears the DT has formed a good relationship with the family, and so they might be convinced of bold assurances RA will be found not guilty. In essence that makes him innocent and life goes on, RA’s reputation is still intact. (IIRC RA made a prior reference around the time of his arrest about harm to ‘his reputation’). JMO

I am not sure Richard Allen's reputation will ever be intact after this, whether or not he is found guilty at trial.

To this day, there are still people who think Richard Jewell was the bomber of the 1996 summer Olympic Games in Atlanta.

 

[photographer4]

Would calling the Sheriff's office be considered calling a "tip line"? But I have to say, the way the DT have spun things in the past, I can't take their word on anything really. RA could have seen DD in the grocery store parking lot and struck up a conversation? Maybe he knew DD? That could have happened when the girls were still missing. MO

I can agree it is possible calling the sheriff's office MIGHT be considered calling a "tip line" however, I do not want to call the D outright liars by suggesting that RA saw DD in the parking lot and struck up a conversation when the D have stated that RA called the tipline. There's a difference imo between walking up to someone and calling the tipline... MOOOO.

 

[FrostedGlass]

So it was statement of opinion vice a statement of fact then. Thank you for the clarification.

No. The FM stated: he called into the tip line. MSM stated the tip line was set up on Feb 16.
Someone else may think differently.

 

[Megnut]

You made it further in than I did! I took my quote from starting around the 4:35 mark. About the CPS car, I believe he says he never saw it at 4:52 mark - but just going off the transcripts so who knows. I think this is the interview that had two segments. Not sure if the guy called back another time and it was added to some other clip or what - so maybe he said things differently later in the video? Either way...I think we're both correct. MOOO

Yes, in totality, he says he didn't see the car parked by the building but concedes that it could have been there and he didn't see it by virtue of how it was parked (hidden).

It's also possible that the vehicle he did see caught up his attention.

If LE had questions about that vehicle, relative to their investigation, they've done that investigating quietly. They haven't needed help from the public, so it appears.

JMO

 

[Cyber sleuth]

I'm not suggesting only this guy is correct. I'm not even saying he is. I'm asking: when he gave the interview to Grey Hughes, he seems to suggest that Le were interested in a car at CPS. The way he tells it, the LE seemed disinterested in the car he reported having seen. I wonder if they did follow up on that particular car or not? If not, why not?

I acknowledge - I didn't notice if the caller said what day he spoke with LE, or if he was certain he had the correct day or how he may have been certain. I'm only asking: did LE follow up on this car or not?

BBM

Yes by then I believe that all other vehicles had been located and owners vetted and cleared.
The only vehicle unidentified was that one backed in by the CPS building just like the only individual on the trails between noon and 5 on 2/13 yet identified was the one caught on video kidnapping these two young teens and also seen entering the trails around 1:30 and leaving around 3:57pm.
JMO.

 

[Vern]

My thoughts exactly. DD may’ve also added the narrative questioning who were the three girls in case 2 of 3 might’ve been the missing Libby and Abby.
JMO

I'll also add in that the photo of BG was released on 15 February and that at no time did DD ask RA "what were you wearing on the trails?" because, IMO, DD spoke to RA before the girls were found murdered and certainly before that photo was released.

The tip line was not established until 16 February and by then it was known what BG was wearing and that there was an actual "crime scene".

Yet, we do know that Delphi LE was asking for people to call into their phone line on the night of 13 February and the morning of the 14th - prior to Abby & Libby being found murdered - if they had any information on the girls' possible wherabouts.

DELPHI TIMELINE: Disappearance and murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams

The mystery surrounding a double murder continues over a month after the bodies of Liberty German, 14, and Abigail Williams, 13, were found. </p><p><strong>MORE </strong>| <a…

www.wrtv.com

And as also seen in Websleuths own Thread #1 prior to the girls being found.

IMO, I also believe that the "Tipline" that RA apparently called was the phone number that LE had been requesting anyone with info call while they were still searching for the two girls vice the official "Tip Line" that was later set up just for this case once their murders was discovered.

From their own Frank's, DD met RA at a grocery store in Delphi to provide his 'tip' ... and I'm willing to wager that LE is interviewing absolutely no one in grocery store parking lots after two girls have been found dead (ie: once an actual capital crime has been established as existing). They are interviewing people at the station after that. Interesting that the Frank's opts not to identify a date and time that RA spoke with Dulin.

_Franks I.pdf

drive.google.com

 

[ClearAhead]

Tip line set up; search at Delphi home​

February 16, 2017​

Police set up a tip line for information in the case. In the evening, state police search a home in Delphi. No arrests are made.

https://cbs4indy.com/the-delphi-murders-an-interactive-timeline/#:~:text=February%2016%2C%202017,search%20a%20home%20in%20Delphi.

That just refers to a NEW tip line number, designated especially for tips on the case.

https://fox59.com/news/police-set-up-tip-line-for-information-in-deaths-of-delphi-teens/

 

[ClearAhead]

I am not sure Richard Allen's reputation will ever be intact after this, whether or not he is found guilty at trial.

To this day, there are still people who think Richard Jewell was the bomber of the 1996 summer Olympic Games in Atlanta.

I’m not sure what kind of reputation Richard Allen had to begin with. Where I come from someone who spends their spare time playing pool in a bar isn’t looked up to in the same way as someone who volunteers their free time to benefit the community in some way.

 

[somequestions]

If Richard Allen is the murderer, I certainly did not see it being him. Even the confessions in this case are strange.

I can only speculate that one girl saw the other get murdered. I think a person like that would not want forgiveness. But that is a completely speculative opinion.

Supposedly some of the confessions Richard Allen gave contain his motivations for the crime. I also think many people besides myself want to know what other evidence LE had against Richard Allen when they made the arrest.

 

[somequestions]

I’m not sure what kind of reputation Richard Allen had to begin with. Where I come from someone who spends their spare time playing pool in a bar isn’t looked up to in the same way as someone who volunteers their free time to benefit the community in some way.

I meant that the court of opinion goes a long way sometimes in determining how people think. I cannot speak to his reputation before his arrest for the murders. Also, to add if the evidence says he did it, then he did it because I do not know what is in his background and do not know about him or his reputation before his arrest for the Delphi murders. I only think that he was not what I was expecting when it came to the person I thought would have committed the murders. That is my opinion.

 

[ClearAhead]

I'll also add in that the photo of BG was released on 15 February and that at no time did DD ask RA "what were you wearing on the trails?" because, IMO, DD spoke to RA before the girls were found murdered and certainly before that photo was released.

The tip line was not established until 16 February and by then it was known what BG was wearing and that there was an actual "crime scene".

Yet, we do know that Delphi LE was asking for people to call into their phone line on the night of 13 February and the morning of the 14th - prior to Abby & Libby being found murdered - if they had any information on the girls' possible wherabouts.

DELPHI TIMELINE: Disappearance and murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams

The mystery surrounding a double murder continues over a month after the bodies of Liberty German, 14, and Abigail Williams, 13, were found. </p><p><strong>MORE </strong>| <a…

www.wrtv.com

And as also seen in Websleuths own Thread #1 prior to the girls being found.

IMO, I also believe that the "Tipline" that RA apparently called was the phone number that LE had been requesting anyone with info call while they were still searching for the two girls vice the official "Tip Line" that was later set up just for this case once their murders was discovered.

From their own Frank's, DD met RA at a grocery store in Delphi to provide his 'tip' ... and I'm willing to wager that LE is interviewing absolutely no one in grocery store parking lots after two girls have been found dead (ie: once an actual capital crime has been established as existing). They are interviewing people at the station after that. Interesting that the Frank's opts not to identify a date and time that RA spoke with Dulin.

_Franks I.pdf

drive.google.com

Good points. I also recall when the girls first went missing the information was that they weren’t to be picked up by an unnamed family member until later in the afternoon. By ‘helpfully’ claiming he hadn’t seen them between 1:30 and 3:30pm he might’ve expected the timeline of their disappearance to be built around him and so it would be assumed the girls had left the trail area.

Far fetched I know but I do wonder if RA assisted in some of these D theories. Had he intended on moving the bodies to some place else but the terrain proved to be too difficult? JMO

DELPHI TIMELINE: The search for Libby & Abby's killer

On February 13, 2017, Liberty "Libby" German and Abigail "Abby" Williams went for a hike near the Monon High Bridge in Delphi. Here's a look at what has happened since that day.

www.wrtv.com

Between 2:30 p.m. and 5:30 p.m. The girls had a set time to meet with family members to be picked up. When family showed up to get them they were nowhere to be found. Family began canvasing the area for Libby and Abby but could not locate them.

 

[Megnut]

Voices probably carry -- in leafless season -- if RA had had more time, would be have completely concealed them? Would he have started a fire? Did he have to leave earlier than he would have wanted because he heard LG's dad calling for her? And knew he had to get gone fast?

It is chilling to me that, very likely, RA was at the scene of his crime at the very sane time LG's dad was looking for her. In some ways, RA must have found a way to remain hidden in plain sight while getting away (except by SC).

Just really drives it home.

JMO

 

[ClearAhead]

No. The FM stated: he called into the tip line. MSM stated the tip line was set up on Feb 16.
Someone else may think differently.

Well it was set up Feb 15th. RA called it to confirm the guy looked just like him?

Feb 15, 2017

Police ask for assistance in identifying man seen walking on trail where Delphi teens went missing

Update: Police released a photo of a man taken on the Delphi Historic Trails on Feb. 13, around the time Abigail Williams and Liberty German were walking. Investigators want to talk with him about …

fox59.com

Anyone who knows about the pictured man or has any information is asked to call a special tip line set up for this case: 844-459-5786. Information provided will be followed up on by officers working the case. Tips can be submitted anonymously.


NB Edit - Is this not LE asking for tips at a time prior to the ‘special’ number being set up?

“Officers are asking anyone who may have taken pictures in the area or was just on the trail to contact authorities immediately. You can call the Carroll County Sheriff’s Department at 765-564-2413 or Indiana State Police at 765-567-2125.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Voices probably carry -- in leafless season -- if RA had had more time, would be have completely concealed them? Would he have started a fire? Did he have to leave earlier than he would have wanted because he heard LG's dad calling for her? And knew he had to get gone fast?

It is chilling to me that, very likely, RA was at the scene of his crime at the very sane time LG's dad was looking for her. In some ways, RA must have found a way to remain hidden in plain sight while getting away (except by SC).

Just really drives it home.

JMO

Observing the search for the girls, and maybe even witnessing them being found from afar, must have been a big thrill for the Perp. It likely nourished the memories of the slaughter in his evil mind.

It's truly chilling to know that such evil walks amongst us. When these crimes against society take place to this magnitude, justice must be rendered to the full extent the law allows. We must demonstrate that as a society we will not tolerate evil doers abusing and slaughtering our children.

Amateur opinion and speculation