Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #197

[photographer4]

Seems to be neither fair nor proper to have the jury view a crime scene area that’s quite different now than at the time the crime occurred. It defeats the entire purpose of enabling the jury to envision various scenarios presented by the prosecution and/or defence. It would be a waste of time and energy to explain or demonstrate how it was like back then compared to the present, and it poses the potential to cause needless confusion for the jury.

JMO

But the blood spatter expert who testified at the recent three day hearings went to see and testified that he viewed the scene in 2024. Why should the experts and not the jury? Moooo.

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

 

[shonyakay]

Here are two of the P's arguments against the jurors viewing the crime scene.
My question to him would be: Why would the viewing be unfair or not proper?

4. That any benefits of the Jury visiting these areas is outweighed by the dangers such a trip presents to the Jury and to the fairness of trial.
5. That the State does not believe it is proper to have the Jury view the scene or the other various areas.

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

IMO there could be a compromise on this motion but I doubt that will happen. I see a denial in the future.

Unfair because the areas have changed significantly. It is not an accurate representation of what those areas looked like on February 13th and 14th, 2007. Imo.

 

[ClearAhead]

Monon High Bridge Trail set for dedication - Inside INdiana Business

Indiana Landmarks and local officials will officially dedicate Delphi's newest trail Wednesday afternoon. What was a historic rail corridor and longtime unofficial pedestrian bridge has now been preserved, repaired and opened for the community to safely use.

www.insideindianabusiness.com

 

[ClearAhead]

But the blood spatter expert who testified at the recent three day hearings went to see and testified that he viewed the scene in 2024. Why should the experts and not the jury? Moooo.

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

Because their duties are not equal.

 

[shonyakay]

d. That the areas of where the bodies were found along with the site of the old CPS building are substantially different from the time the crimes occurred.

I wonder how why the State says the area where the bodies were found (i.e. the crime scene) are now "substantially different from the time the crimes occurred"? Has the area been cleared? I am curious about why this was said.

It could be erosion from the creek or way more foliage in the area than before. Maybe some sort of landscaping done in the area. Your guess is as good as mine.

Edited to add: The above comment of mine is related to the wooded crime scene area on RL's property. The old CPS building is not even there anymore.

 

[ClearAhead]

The bridge shown at the beginning of this video is the Freedom Bridge. The Monon High Bridge as it appeared in February 2024 comes later.

 

[Salah11]

Wow the bridge looks so different I wouldn’t know it was the same bridge.

 

[photographer4]

Did you watch the video posted a few pages back of how the portion of bridge that’s been improved appears now? The end part where the girls were trapped is barricaded and it appears the rotting ties are even more dangerous than how they appeared in 2017. Sometimes it’s impossible to wind back a time clock to see how things physically appeared back then, there just isn’t always way.

JMO

I’m aware. I don’t think the D proposed crossing the bridge though. They suggested driving to the parking lot where the kids were dropped off, then to the side where it is believed kids taken from then to the area where bodies were found and then the old CPS building. I think it should be allowed personally. But I understand the complications of such a trip so we will see what happens.

 

[ClearAhead]

I’m aware. I don’t think the D proposed crossing the bridge though. They suggested driving to the parking lot where the kids were dropped off, then to the side where it is believed kids taken from then to the area where bodies were found and then the old CPS building. I think it should be allowed personally. But I understand the complications of such a trip so we will see what happens.

Nothing in the motion specified a specific route. It adds unnecessary confusion if the jurors are unable to accurately view the point where the kidnapping took place. But this isn’t our decision to make, it’s up to the judge.

Richard Allen wants to tour Delphi crime scene with jurors

Richard Allen's defense is asking to allow jurors and Allen to be transported to the site where the bodies of two teens were found in 2017.

www.courttv.com

DELPHI, Ind. (Court TV) — Weeks before the start of his trial, the Indiana man charged with killing two teenagers in 2017 just outside Delphi is asking the judge to allow him to view the crime scene with jurors.

In a motion filed on Sept. 23, Richard Allen petitioned the court to allow jurors to be transported to the Freedom Bridge, the Monon High Bridge, the site where the victims’ bodies were found, and the site of the old CPS building where prosecutors claim Allen parked the day the girls were killed.

 

[FrostedGlass]

If I was on the jury, I'd definitely want to see the crime scene. AND I would definitely want to hear what the D has.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

I’m aware. I don’t think the D proposed crossing the bridge though. They suggested driving to the parking lot where the kids were dropped off, then to the side where it is believed kids taken from then to the area where bodies were found and then the old CPS building. I think it should be allowed personally. But I understand the complications of such a trip so we will see what happens.

Physically I don’t think the jury would be able to visit the place the girls were kidnapped as it’s unsafe. The also would not be crossing the creek or approaching the crime scene from the creek and walking up to the crime scene on RL’s property. The cps building is gone. The only trek that would be similar would be the walk from freedom bridge to the beginning of MHB. So much is different.
Why bring the jury to view when it’s so vastly different than it was in 2017.
IMO I agree with Vern, this strategy is to confuse the jury.
All my opinion.

 

[photographer4]

d. That the areas of where the bodies were found along with the site of the old CPS building are substantially different from the time the crimes occurred.

I wonder how why the State says the area where the bodies were found (i.e. the crime scene) are now "substantially different from the time the crimes occurred"? Has the area been cleared? I am curious about why this was said.

And if it’s so different how helpful could it have been for Cicero the blood spatter guy?

I linked above to his testimony.

 

[Vern]

Wow the bridge looks so different I wouldn’t know it was the same bridge.

For sure. The portion that can still be accessed with it's railings etc would certainly feel safe for the jurors. Hard for them to even imagine feeling trapped and unsafe in the setting as it is now. It's now very misleading as to context of the times and of the crimes.

 

[Vern]

If I was on the jury, I'd definitely want to see the crime scene. AND I would definitely want to hear what the D has.

That's why diagrams, photos, mockups, videos etc are taken at crime scenes and shown at trials. Because they accurately reflect the geography and the scene as it was during the crime.

Actual crime scene visits by juries are extremely rare. In this case, no visit would accurately reflect the scene as it appeared nor could it be followed "as it happened".

We'll hear what the D has. The trial is coming. One doesn't need to be at the crime scene to hear that.

 

[ClearAhead]

Wow the bridge looks so different I wouldn’t know it was the same bridge.

Yes night and day difference from before.

Source: $1.2M to restore Monon High Bridge trail, scene in Delphi teens’ murder

 

[FrostedGlass]

For sure. The portion that can still be accessed with it's railings etc would certainly feel safe for the jurors. Hard for them to even imagine feeling trapped and unsafe in the setting as it is now. It's now very misleading as to context of the times and of the crimes.

Do you think the jurors wouldn't be able to look at the unfinished portion directly in front of them and imagine the awfulness of the crime?

 

[Betty P]

Nothing in the motion specified a specific route. It adds unnecessary confusion if the jurors are unable to accurately view the point where the kidnapping took place. But this isn’t our decision to make, it’s up to the judge.

Richard Allen wants to tour Delphi crime scene with jurors

Richard Allen's defense is asking to allow jurors and Allen to be transported to the site where the bodies of two teens were found in 2017.

www.courttv.com

DELPHI, Ind. (Court TV) — Weeks before the start of his trial, the Indiana man charged with killing two teenagers in 2017 just outside Delphi is asking the judge to allow him to view the crime scene with jurors.

In a motion filed on Sept. 23, Richard Allen petitioned the court to allow jurors to be transported to the Freedom Bridge, the Monon High Bridge, the site where the victims’ bodies were found, and the site of the old CPS building where prosecutors claim Allen parked the day the girls were killed.

The prosecution should plan the viewing for the jurors. The defendant should NOT be allowed to accompany them, nor should the news media. JMO, based on how I've seen similar tours conducted in other trials.

 

[statt#1]

Do you think the jurors wouldn't be able to look at the unfinished portion directly in front of them and imagine the awfulness of the crime?

There is so much that goes in to this, for me, that I'm not sure where to start. I do think they might get a feel for what the bridge was like, sure. But whether they can see to the end, where the girls were told to go down the hill, that's debatable, as I've seen video of foliage that has grown up, and across the bridge at that end.

So to access that point, where they were actually abducted, is difficult, and would have to be through the private residence at the end of that private lane that goes under the bridge.

All this brings up the question of just how astute a person is when it comes to direction, topography, distance, etc. So, from the platform gazing across the rail bridge to the abduction point, they'd walk back toward freedom bridge, get in a vehicle, drive down past the cemetery, maybe park in the cemetery, try and peer through the woods, depending on time of year, and likely see very little, possibly the bridge through the trees a half mile or so away.

So to access the crime scene where the bodies were found, they'd likely start at RL's old place, or the cemetery, and have to walk down that wooded steep embankment, and I'm not seeing that happening, though they could take an ATV or some other mode of transportation down in to there....maybe.

Or they'd go back the trail, after looking at the rail bridge, get in a vehicle, drive all the way around to the road that accesses the private drive, and arrive under the bridge, looking up at the east end where the girls were thought to have gone down the hill, then marched across that drive, then through a bottom of woods and undergrowth, across that creek, and to the CS. They'd likely not be asked to do that walk, across the creek? I highly doubt it.

 

[ClearAhead]

Have the DT even visited the crime scene area to know what they are asking for? I though the old CPS building was torn down not long after the crime.

Delphi murder suspect wants jurors to see the crime scenes

Delphi murder suspect Richard Allen's attorneys asked Special Judge Frances Gull to allow jurors to see the crime scenes in person.

www.jconline.com

“Jurors also should see the old Child Protective Services building where prosecutors allege Allen parked between 1:30 and 4 p.m. the day of the killings.”

 

[Megnut]

Well it was set up Feb 15th. RA called it to confirm the guy looked just like him?

Feb 15, 2017

Police ask for assistance in identifying man seen walking on trail where Delphi teens went missing

Update: Police released a photo of a man taken on the Delphi Historic Trails on Feb. 13, around the time Abigail Williams and Liberty German were walking. Investigators want to talk with him about …

fox59.com

Anyone who knows about the pictured man or has any information is asked to call a special tip line set up for this case: 844-459-5786. Information provided will be followed up on by officers working the case. Tips can be submitted anonymously.


NB Edit - Is this not LE asking for tips at a time prior to the ‘special’ number being set up?

“Officers are asking anyone who may have taken pictures in the area or was just on the trail to contact authorities immediately. You can call the Carroll County Sheriff’s Department at 765-564-2413 or Indiana State Police at 765-567-2125.

Guessing that the 844 tip line was manned by the FBI who knows how best to do them. Prior to that calls were coming into local pd. City or county.

With how quickly the investigation was moving and with adjustments as entities took over rolls and others yielded or shifted, it's not surprising to me that tips might get lost and buried.

Even mindset shifted as it quickly went from a missing persons case (find the girls) to a homicide investigation (find the killer).

JMO