Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #197

[ClearAhead]

I think this was a sexually motivated crime. The Unified Command Center also believed this.
NM gave RA's motive on Cross with Dr.PM.

Yes that’s possible whether or not CSAM was involved. Two teens alone on a bridge posing for photos, could be tempting for a demented opportunist I suppose. MOO

 

[Salah11]

My heart always aches for Libby when I think about her. She was so brave and had so much courage until her dying breath.

Unfortunately, she was vulnerable to predators because of society's perception of what beautiful is. The pressure that children now are under to fit a certain mould and god forbid they don’t.

I believe so much evidence was lost when Libby did that hard reset on her phone, and it’s a shame we will never know if somebody she was in contact with advised her to wipe it.

Mooo

 

[katydid23]

My heart always aches for Libby when I think about her. She was so brave and had so much courage until her dying breath.

Unfortunately, she was vulnerable to predators because of society's perception of what beautiful is. The pressure that children now are under to fit a certain mould and god forbid they don’t.

I believe so much evidence was lost when Libby did that hard reset on her phone, and it’s a shame we will never know if somebody she was in contact with advised her to wipe it.

Mooo

As to the bolded portion above----that is so so true.

I worked in a middle school for several years, in the principal's office, so I was able to see and hear what was going on with a lot of students. We had several cases where young girls were catfished by older males. In two instances the girls even ran off with them and were returned home by LE.

It was rarely the popular,' attractive' students that fell for those situations because they had plenty of attention in real life. But the shy, less confident, less conventionally attractive students were more likely to be spending time online trying to meet people, and were more gullible.

 

[sunshineray]

Does anyone else think that the witness used the wrong word when describing her expertise? She said Norse paganists were polygamists, and then went on to describe them having many gods. That's polytheism. Polygamists have lots of wives.

MOO

I'm reading from Googling that pagans can be polygamist and/or polyamorous, both having multiple partners. They can also be monogamous. Maybe she was talking about that stuff and then the polytheism too? Who knows, she wasn't the best witness and she got a bit rattled on cross, IMO.

 

[shonyakay]

Yes that’s possible whether or not CSAM was involved. Two teens alone on a bridge posing for photos, could be tempting for a demented opportunist I suppose. MOO

NM pretty much says RA confessed that the crime was sexually motivated during his cross of Dr. Perlmutter. Imo.


Q. Fair to say a crime could be sexually motivated, but before the sexual assault occurs, the crime is committed; fair? - NM
A. Could you say that again? - Dr. P
Q. Sure. The crime initially could be sexually motivated, but before any kind of sexual assault occurs, the person kills the victim. - NM
A. Yes. - Dr. P
Q. If the Defendant said that, would that be important information for you to review before you made your analysis? - NM

 

[shonyakay]

I have a tendency to respond before reading through the entire thread first. Sorry about that!

I do as well.
No worries.

 

[shonyakay]

It was rarely the popular,' attractive' students that fell for those situations because they had plenty of attention in real life. But the shy, less confident, less conventionally attractive students were more likely to be spending time online trying to meet people, and were more gullible.

Libby may have been a larger girl but she seemed very confident in her own skin. She was into various sports and had a fair amount of friends.

 

[ClearAhead]

NM pretty much says RA confessed that the crime was sexually motivated during his cross of Dr. Perlmutter. Imo.


Q. Fair to say a crime could be sexually motivated, but before the sexual assault occurs, the crime is committed; fair? - NM
A. Could you say that again? - Dr. P
Q. Sure. The crime initially could be sexually motivated, but before any kind of sexual assault occurs, the person kills the victim. - NM
A. Yes. - Dr. P
Q. If the Defendant said that, would that be important information for you to review before you made your analysis? - NM

Yes but what confirms RA earlier targeted Libby through CSAM? I hadn’t noticed anything other than speculation. An opportunist attack can be sexually motivated and SA attacks can be fueled by rage as well, the victim not always preselected in advance.

I can’t quite get past why RA would need to catfish a potential murder victim. He lived near the trails where teenagers were known to hang out. His age is another thing - what would cause him to suddenly seek out teens to murder online? IMO that carries double the risk of getting caught.

MOO

 

[Arkay]

Libby may have been a larger girl but she seemed very confident in her own skin. She was into various sports and had a fair amount of friends.

I do agree that Libby did seem active, had a best friend in Abby and had other friends as well.

In my experience teaching 8th graders for 25 years, my opinion is that when girls are 14, even if they are confident and popular, they have a yearning to be considered pretty by boys. Abby had a boyfriend, and since Libby thought she was wanted by someone who looked like AShots, that is intoxicating to a girl that age if she hasn’t been frequently approached by the opposite sex.

I believe that Libby as well as her sister seemed very happy and well-adjusted living with their grandparents, but there may still be some ache for a growing girl whose father is not part of her daily life. More vulnerability to fall for a scam.

Separate from teaching, I’ve seen my eldest granddaughter go through some of this, because my daughter and her husband divorced early and thereafter the father was not very involved.

JMO and JME

 

[shonyakay]

Yes but what confirms RA earlier targeted Libby through CSAM? I hadn’t noticed anything other than speculation. An opportunist attack can be sexually motivated and SA attacks can be fueled by rage as well, the victim not always preselected in advance.

I can’t quite get past why RA would need to catfish a potential murder victim. He lived near the trails where teenagers were known to hang out. His age is another thing - what would cause him to suddenly seek out teens to murder online? IMO that carries double the risk of getting caught.

MOO

You were talking about motive in a previous post like you weren't for sure what the motive was and/or saying how a jury likes to know a motive.

In regards to the catfishing being related to RA...

I am saying no. I was the one asking other posters what they are basing their belief that Libby was targeted on.

 

[Vaderman]

I actually find myself feeling more sadness for Abby. It seems like she is so often treated as an afterthought. The spare. She mattered, too.

 

[shonyakay]

I do agree that Libby did seem active, had a best friend in Abby and had other friends as well.

In my experience teaching 8th graders for 25 years, my opinion is that when girls are 14, even if they are confident and popular, they have a yearning to be considered pretty by boys. Abby had a boyfriend, and since Libby thought she was wanted by someone who looked like AShots, that is intoxicating to a girl that age if she hasn’t been frequently approached by the opposite sex.

I believe that Libby as well as her sister seemed very happy and well-adjusted living with their grandparents, but there may still be some ache for a growing girl whose father is not part of her daily life. More vulnerability to fall for a scam.

Separate from teaching, I’ve seen my eldest granddaughter go through some of this, because my daughter and her husband divorced early and thereafter the father was not very involved.

JMO and JME

I do agree with most of your post but didn't Libby's dad DG live with her at his mom BP's home?

 

[Arkay]

I do agree with most of your post but didn't Libby's dad DG live with her at his mom BP's home?

Oh, you are right, thank you! I don’t know how it slipped my mind.

I’m happy for Libby that she had her dad in her daily life.

@Vaderman
Your comment about Abby being an afterthought touched my heart.

Of course BOTH of them count, BOTH of them mattered and still matter.

I don’t know why that is..maybe because of the theories regarding Libby’s resemblance to RA’s daughter?

Maybe because Libby appeared to be attacked even more savagely?

Maybe because Abby’s family seems quieter in public than Kelsi and the Pattys who are more vocal?

Each girl counts equally and each girl leaves behind equal heartache for each family. It’s heartbreaking to think of Abby as secondary to Libby.

JMO

 

[sunshineray]

Both so very precious, sweet and lovely. Both would have been beautiful young ladies now </3

 

[snooptroop88]

When the other (4) girls saw him, he was already on a mission or at least he seemed to be. Had a scarf or something over the mouth area, didn't return a greeting and went boldly on his way, so I remember. Near the Freedom Bridge, where he met these girls, he seemed to be focused on his way to MHB and only that. So I assume, at that point his goal was already fixed: going to MHB and expecting there 2 girls namely Abby and Libby - who ever had him told it. I believe, his plan had already been decided. It wasn't neccessary to ridicule him. If it indeed happened, it wouldn't have made things worse. IMO

Yup. Agreed.

I can see why the catfishing creating a strong suspicion against the catfisher, but I actually don't think it is coincidental against anyone else.

First, it seems highly unlikely to me that catfisher would share with RA, unless they were criminal associates in that enterprise but we know there is no evidence of it, and if they were, catfisher would have cut a deal for that testimony. So at best that leaves some kind of random sharing, which i find highly unlikely.

(snipped for focus/legnth)

Agreed there's no evidence of it and that's why they're not pursuing it. But I'm wondering if there's no deal only because there's no evidence, and there's no evidence because the party who obtained the info from the catfisher did it in a such a clever, unexpected, and/or surreptitious manner that even the catfisher was not aware of it. And since it took years to charge RA, any hope of uncovering such access might by then be gone. And the access might be bound up in such an unlikely set of circumstances that nobody would think to explore even if it even were somehow still available.

Your logic makes sense, but I just can't let go of the nagging pit in my gut that there was some type of catfishing done by someone to lure Abby and Libby there that day.

I know gut instincts aren't always logical, but that's what I have here.

JMO

Same here.

 

[ClearAhead]

You were talking about motive in a previous post like you weren't for sure what the motive was and/or saying how a jury likes to know a motive.

In regards to the catfishing being related to RA...

I am saying no. I was the one asking other posters what they are basing their belief that Libby was targeted on.

Maybe it was a misunderstanding. Motive is not required to be proven for a conviction to occur, probably since it’s impossible to know what’s in a murderer’s head. What if the kidnapping began simply to frighten them but became a sexual assault after the victims began fighting back (or after death) since it aroused his feeling of male dominance? This is why I’d wonder how motive can be determined, aside from a full confession. Sometimes the perp doesn’t even know what caused him/her to spiral off the deep end, or at least won’t admit the reason.

But granted, generally the prosecution presents a theory of what they believe was the motive.

As for RA, if he indeed was a sexual predator I’d definitely wonder about his prior history? It would be hard to believe he suddenly began catfishing and murdering at his older age.
MOO

 

[Melted]

It’s so strange how little we know about Richard Allen, no social media, no online presence, no run in’s with the law. It’s very rare these days.

 

[sunshineray]

I do agree that Libby did seem active, had a best friend in Abby and had other friends as well.

In my experience teaching 8th graders for 25 years, my opinion is that when girls are 14, even if they are confident and popular, they have a yearning to be considered pretty by boys. Abby had a boyfriend, and since Libby thought she was wanted by someone who looked like AShots, that is intoxicating to a girl that age if she hasn’t been frequently approached by the opposite sex.

I believe that Libby as well as her sister seemed very happy and well-adjusted living with their grandparents, but there may still be some ache for a growing girl whose father is not part of her daily life. More vulnerability to fall for a scam.

Separate from teaching, I’ve seen my eldest granddaughter go through some of this, because my daughter and her husband divorced early and thereafter the father was not very involved.

JMO and JME

There's sooooo much more to it now that just about every kid is on social media basically trying to promote themselves. It use to be a simpler way through that age. There was still angst, worries and mishaps but there wasn't the extreme pressure to decide who you were and start a brand online at such an age. It's like hardwired into kids now. Too much stress and pressure to be involved in proving yourself to be worthy of attention in SM. Nothing is thought of as private anymore. Kids needs to be kids, not mini adults airing their growing pains online for all to see and judge. JMO

 

[iamshadow21]

I'm reading from Googling that pagans can be polygamist and/or polyamorous, both having multiple partners. They can also be monogamous. Maybe she was talking about that stuff and then the polytheism too? Who knows, she wasn't the best witness and she got a bit rattled on cross, IMO.

I tried reading her transcript yesterday, and so much of it was vague word salad. I was dubious based on what people had said about her testimony, but the transcript was more disorganised and confusing than I'd expected. For someone who claims they spend their time giving lectures to various organisations and law enforcement branches, she really didn't speak well or clearly when trying to explain the basics of what she claims to specialise in. You'd think that would come out smoothly on autopilot if it's literally her job.

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

Yes but what confirms RA earlier targeted Libby through CSAM? I hadn’t noticed anything other than speculation. An opportunist attack can be sexually motivated and SA attacks can be fueled by rage as well, the victim not always preselected in advance.

I can’t quite get past why RA would need to catfish a potential murder victim. He lived near the trails where teenagers were known to hang out. His age is another thing - what would cause him to suddenly seek out teens to murder online? IMO that carries double the risk of getting caught.

MOO

agreed. none of this fits with the cat fishers known MO which was to obtain photos via deception. He did not meet with victims.