Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #199

[CamilleBSP]

I’m actually nervous and don’t know what to expect.

I’ve been following this case since day one and I’d really like to see justice for the girls, but at the same time I don’t think the evidence seems strong in terms of pointing to RA as the perp.

Honestly, of all the trials, this one is THE one that should be televised. The whole secrecy puts me off big time here.

 

[TTF14]

A jury will decide based on evidence, and we can only hope they get it right. Sometimes they do, sometimes not. OJ Simpson and Casey Anthony trials are all that are needed for reference.

jmo

RSBM

As well as The Central Park 5, Ronald Kitchen, Randy Steidl, Thomas Raynard James....and the list goes on. IMO, there are far more wrongful convictions than wrongful exonerations.

As always, JMO.

 

[TTF14]

Interesting. I have never heard of a sequestered jury not being well, sequestered.

I guess they are making sequestration more family (and work) friendly.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

I haven't followed this case very closely.

So I have a question for all of you more knowledgeable than I am.

What is the controversy over the prosecution requesting that the suspect sketches be excluded as evidence?

I ask because I don't recall any cases I've followed in which suspect sketches were used as evidence one way or the other.

 

[iamshadow21]

I haven't followed this case very closely.

So I have a question for all of you more knowledgeable than I am.

What is the controversy over the prosecution requesting that the suspect sketches be excluded as evidence?

I ask because I don't recall any cases I've followed in which suspect sketches were used as evidence one way or the other.

Yeah, I don't get what the big deal is. This case in New York is a good example.

Issue(s)
Whether a composite sketch used to identify a defendant can be admitted as evidence to prove the defendant's guilt.
Disposition
No. Composite sketches are barred by the hearsay rule and thus are generally inadmissible against defendants to prove guilt. However, as an exception to the hearsay rule, a composite sketch may be admissible in cases where the testimony of an identifying witness is assailed as a recent fabrication.

liibulletin: People v. Maldonado

 

[steeltowngirl]

RSBM

As well as The Central Park 5, Ronald Kitchen, Randy Steidl, Thomas Raynard james....and the list goes on. IMO, there are far more wrongful convictions than wrongful exonerations.

As always, JMO.

Wrongful convictions are awful, and years back, those cases were more common. No doubt. I do think the advance of forensics and use of DNA testing are helping to decrease the number of wrongful convictions. Along with the fight against racism in the criminal system.

jmo

 

[Vern]

And ... he subsequently resigned (to IN Chief Justice Rush and IN Governor Holcomb). Original judge on Delphi murders case abruptly resigns

Nothing to see there.

Unsuprisingly not nefarious. The recusal goes to the Supreme Court only because it is they who assign Special Judges IAW Local Rules:

_Order of Recusal and Certification to the Indiana Supreme Court for Selection of a Special Judge Outside of Carroll County.pdf

drive.google.com

Pursuant to L.R.08-CR13-19(C), this Court has determined that no judicial officer within the county may preside over this case.

This Court now Certifies this matter to the Indiana Supreme Court for appointment of special judge in compliance with L.R.08—CR13-19(B),(C).

SO ORDERED this 3rd day of November 2022.

The Local Rules quoted above can be found here:

https://www.in.gov/courts/files/carroll-local-rules.pdf

 

[TTF14]

I haven't followed this case very closely.

So I have a question for all of you more knowledgeable than I am.

What is the controversy over the prosecution requesting that the suspect sketches be excluded as evidence?

I ask because I don't recall any cases I've followed in which suspect sketches were used as evidence one way or the other.

In my opinion, it's not so much the sketches themselves, but the testimony of the witnesses who gave the information for the sketches. There is a lot of controversy over what they said/saw and what was reported in the probable cause affidavit. If the sketches are kept out, those witnesses will likely not be called either (in my opinion/assumption), which would be a win for the State because what they (the witnesses) say could potentially be quite different from what was stated that they said in the probable cause affidavit. In my opinion and how I understand it. I could be wrong.

As always, JMO.

 

[snooptroop88]

I haven't followed this case very closely.

So I have a question for all of you more knowledgeable than I am.

What is the controversy over the prosecution requesting that the suspect sketches be excluded as evidence?

I ask because I don't recall any cases I've followed in which suspect sketches were used as evidence one way or the other.

Fox 59: "The sketches were based on the recollections of witnesses and were released to the public to generate tips about the February 2017 murders of Abby Williams and Libby German." And "The second sketch showed a suspect who looked considerably younger than the person seen in the original one."

Arguably, these sketches look like they could be two different people. If the sketches are supposed to be the same person, one of the witnesses for whatever reason saw this person appearing quite differently compared to other witnesses. The P's saying they don't want to confuse the jury with the multiple sketches, but I'd tend to think the real reason is the disparity in terms of appearance and the fact that D can capitalize on it, jmo.

These sketches are a tool, they're not perfect, some of these sketches I've seen for solved cases are not at all accurate depictions of the actual perps and in a lot of cases look absolutely nothing like the actual person once that person's apprehended, and this is the case even where it's bona fide, guaranteed yeah, that was "supposed to be" this given perp in the sketch. MOO.

I don't think in the end it'll work out to the D's advantage. Sketches are notoriously imperfect. And jmo, I saw a picture of a very young RA and the image from the younger sketch to me is a dead ringer. I find that incredibly weird, but it's jmho.

Adding full explanation from NMcL from Fox 59:
McLeland’s motion argued that “a composite sketch is not relevant, admission would result in undue prejudice, confuse or mislead the jury, or is impermissible hearsay, and the witnesses who participated in the preparation of composite sketch(s) will not be presented by the State for the purpose of in-court identification of the defendant.”

McLeland went on to argue that the sketches were not related to the identification of Allen as a suspect and weren’t relevant to his trial...

https://fox59.com/delphi-trial/delphi-murders-state-wants-to-keep-widely-circulated-composite-sketches-out-of-trial/

 

[Inthedetails]

Friday cannot get here fast enough. jmo

 

[Vern]

In my opinion, it's not so much the sketches themselves, but the testimony of the witnesses who gave the information for the sketches. There is a lot of controversy over what they said/saw and what was reported in the probable cause affidavit. If the sketches are kept out, those witnesses will likely not be called either (in my opinion/assumption), which would be a win for the State because what they (the witnesses) say could potentially be quite different from what was stated that they said in the probable cause affidavit. In my opinion and how I understand it. I could be wrong.

As always, JMO.

But, why couldn't they be called?

They are named in the PCA as witnesses as identifying his clothing (the PCA doesn't mention sketches).

I'm pretty certain the Defence could call them to the stand if they wanted to, to question them on their clothing descriptions/statements made to LE even if the sketches are not allowed.

@AugustWest - Any reason why the Defence could not call them (if not called by the Prosecution to testify as to clothing [should sketches be out])??

 

[TTF14]

Why couldn't they be called?

They are named in the PCA as witnesses as identifying his clothing.

I'm pretty certain the Defence could call them to the stand if they wanted to, to question them on their clothing descriptions/statements made to LE even if the sketches are not allowed.

@AugustWest - Any reason why the Defence could not call them (if not called by the Prosecution to testify as to clothing [should sketches be out])??

I didn't say they couldn't. I said they will likely not be called, so wouldn't. Not couldn't, but wouldn't, in my opinion. Big difference.

As always, JMO.

 

[Vern]

I didn't say they couldn't. I said they will likely not be called, so wouldn't. Not couldn't, but wouldn't, in my opinion. Big difference.

As always, JMO.

OK, my apologies. My total misread because you brought up the PCA in which sketches aren't mentioned and stated them not testifying would be a win for the state.

My bad; really no biggie.

 

[steeltowngirl]

In my opinion, it's not so much the sketches themselves, but the testimony of the witnesses who gave the information for the sketches. There is a lot of controversy over what they said/saw and what was reported in the probable cause affidavit. If the sketches are kept out, those witnesses will likely not be called either (in my opinion/assumption), which would be a win for the State because what they (the witnesses) say could potentially be quite different from what was stated that they said in the probable cause affidavit. In my opinion and how I understand it. I could be wrong.

As always, JMO.

I don’t think the sketches, or the witnesses that helped create them, are referenced in the PCA.

They may still be called though. They are important to the timeline. They saw BG. I doubt they will be asked to positively identify RA as the man on the trail.

jmo

 

[Emma Peel]

Nothing to see there.

Unsuprisingly not nefarious. The recusal goes to the Supreme Court only because it is they who assign Special Judges IAW Local Rules:

_Order of Recusal and Certification to the Indiana Supreme Court for Selection of a Special Judge Outside of Carroll County.pdf

drive.google.com

The Local Rules quoted above can be found here:

https://www.in.gov/courts/files/carroll-local-rules.pdf

I am referencing Diener’s abrupt resignation from his judgeship entirely. (Months after his recusal from IN v RA) Not his recusal.

Many considered this to be remarkable - 7 days before his re-election.

Jmho

Original judge on Delphi murders case abruptly resigns
Original judge on Delphi murders case abruptly resigns

Original judge on Delphi murders case abruptly resigns​

Carroll County Circuit Court Judge Benjamin Diener’s last day was Tuesday, April 30.
Author: 13 Investigates
Published: 2:30 PM EDT May 2, 2024
Updated: 3:47 PM EDT May 2, 2024
CARROLL COUNTY, Indiana — The original judge on the Delphi murders case stepped down this week with just a few days notice.
Carroll County Circuit Court Judge Benjamin Diener’s last day was Tuesday, April 30.
He is currently on the ballot for the May 7 primary, running for re-election as the county’s Circuit Court judge.
On April 23, Diener notified Gov. Eric Holcomb of his plans to resign in seven days. Diener wrote, “Having served a judge for nearly twelve years, I have accomplished all of my professional goals and embrace the uncertainty of whatever comes next.”

 

[Melted]

Anyone clearly connected? DailyMail.com was then told "they were digging up the family's dead cat, whose hair proved a match for the samples found on one of the victims."

Is quoting the daily mail fine on this forum?

Serious question because I have been holding back citing sources far more credible because I haven’t been sure it’s ok to do so.

 

[Vern]

Is quoting the daily mail fine on this forum?

Serious question because I have been holding back citing sources far more credible because I haven’t been sure it’s ok to do so.

It is considered an acceptable source on Websleuths.

 

[MollyDDD]

If he is, then there should be a public uproar imo! Considering how much this has / will cost the tax payers, who don’t even have access to the trial they’re paying for… they should be mad as heck if the State fails to prove their case Bard and RA is acquitted. To be clear - before anyone comes at me - I am not in any way suggesting any vocal or physical assaults towards the people involved on either side, nor towards the court staff, LE or jurors!! I am only positing that an acquittal should make people mad and in turn should make people really consider arrests more carefully in the future. Mooooo.

IMO, when a child is first reported as missing, it is imperative for LE to be prepared and immediately send out a task force to begin an investigation. Time is of the essence to gather information and begin a search before crucial evidence is compromised.

 

[Milkyjoe]

It is considered an acceptable source on Websleuths.

Yet even mentioning a lawyer's name on here (who's actually attending the trial) gets deleted. Not what their opinions are, just their name typed out. Bizarre.

 

[sunshineray]

In this case, I’d say a public uproar is as likely for a guilty verdict as a not guilty verdict.

I am thinking it may end up as a hung jury. And Gull will send RA back to solitary confinement in a prison until a new trial.

I personally think if it's a hung jury he'll get bail with home arrest and electronic ankle bracelet. MO