Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #210

[DoctorRose]

BASr

BARD has been defined as you yourself making a large decision on the evidence. This is meant to give the jury a tool to clarify their thinking.

For example lets say behind the scenes it is known whether RA is guilty or not-

You have to place a bet of 100k on either guilty or not guilty, and after you bet the answer will be revealed.

I’d find it easier to bet on his guilt than to return a guilty verdict at this point to be honest but maybe I’m just weird lol.

 

[Boxer]

I'm not a lawyer, but, I do not believe Harshman can give and "educated opinion" on RA's voice or whether it is a match to the voice on LG's video because he is not credentialed in the field of voice analysis or anything even adjacent to that imo -

"... a medical expert can offer insight into the injuries discussed in the case, while a forensic expert can give an educated opinion of evidence found at the crime scene. Other types of expert witnesses include financial, vocational, ballistics, and mental health experts...."

Mastering Criminal Defense: A Guide for Lawyers -

Are you a criminal defense lawyer hoping to be more effective at defending clients? Get to know some strategies for mastering criminal defense.

scwestonlaw.com

2: "Experts are the only witnesses who are allowed to give evidence about their opinions. These may include mechanics, doctors, engineers, appraisers, carpenters, repairmen, psychiatrists, psychologists, or other."

Witnesses

I can give an my opinion on the voice.
It is as close a match as there is. Not definitive, for instance it could be someone else with an extremely similar voice.

However not just a local voice, for instance, it was not RL's voice with his similar accent, due an obvious individual lilt.

And this is why we have juries! The outcome of this is going to be interesting!

Do we have the official time of the geofence? Did that finally get presented? Sorry if I messed it - I’m seriously behind on this thread - TIA

MOO there was technically no "geofence" according to Ives.
The tower dump got popularly called a geofence along the way.

 

[Boxer]

I’d find it easier to bet on his guilt than to return a guilty verdict at this point to be honest but maybe I’m just weird lol.

Interesting. BARD is designed to you to get your own decision making into the process.
It's guilty or not guilty based on evidence presented.

And I guess one can count the defense not really presenting a defense as evidence of a sort.

 

[AugustWest]

Well if anyone was wondering if RA was really watching fish, this video shows there is no way possible he saw any fish.

 

[photographer4]

It's very much a 'pound the table' move.

Sound and fury, signifying nothing.

MOO

Oh I thought it was a "boss move!" - a quote I'm stealing from one of the lawyers I started following on Youtube regarding this case, but I can't attribute it because I can't recall which one it was from. That surely has stuck in the minds of the jurors, and while its not a tv drama, that sure has been a cliffhanger moment in my mind as I wonder what that is all about! I'm interested to find out - I'm not gonna be shocked if he pleads the 5th the entire time when he is back on the stand -- mooo

 

[photographer4]

B McDonald on Court TV said she'd heard about the van from people in the town, along with LE, years ago.

How do we know RA didn't hear it around town also? JMO.

How do we know Wala didn't know about it and provide it to him? Moo.

 

[Vern]

Yeah, for sure. I’m just saying that the psychosis and his mental health changes over all don’t necessarily point me in either direction because either one could make sense.

And, IMO, none of that has anything to do with what RA was up to the afternoon of 13 February 2017.

And he can't/won't tell us either, but IMO the evidence can.

And, once more - RA also confessed prior to the psych meds. It didn't all happen afterwards.

 

[NoeticSoul]

So sad to imagine that these were the last views that Abby & Libby had. Creek gives me chills..

 

[DoctorRose]

The psych scares me...she seems like a "fan" of her client and I could go down some inappropriate and unethical roads...I'm just hoping that my brain is speculating...psychology is subjective, it was her job to make it less subjective and more quantifiable if that is possible. She did not do that IMO and I feel she left people with more questions

Yeah I agree that her unprofessional behavior is nothing to sneeze at. I work in a healthcare adjacent field where I don’t work with patients but I do work with patient data. We have to take HIPAA training all the time. You’re not allowed to read someone’s records unless you are directly treating them and that record has info you actually need to do that. You can’t just hang out and read peoples’ files. My data is anonymized so I couldn’t do light reading on anyone even if I tried, but I wouldn’t try. I’d be so embarrassed to do something like that because it’s so obviously out of line.

 

[ClearAhead]

I think they couldn’t believe what they were seeing of a man they fully understand was presumed innocent. Who knew this was happening in our justice system. Call me shocked also. I always thought people who could not afford bail were held in their local jails close to their family and lawyers and transported in police vehicles to and from court appearances not in prison treated like the worst of convicted felons. I have no idea what the jury saw but they will weigh it with regard to the alleged confessions and the early interviews where he proclaimed his innocence and pushed back on the interrogation technique I think.

I really doubt any juror member would shed tears simply by observing RA’s melt downs, his despicable and disgusting behaviour. More than likely it frightened them, much like Libby and Abby had to have been literally frightened to death, tears mixed with blood. JMO

 

[photographer4]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>

The gag order was intended to control leaks of confidential information. How would Dr Wala or anyone be in a position to tell the difference between local rumours and leaks of factual information if RA was being fed extra details to add to his confessions? Any false rumours built into RA’s confessions? Not that I noticed.

Furthermore we are to believe a patient suffering from severe psychosis has the ability to entrench an rumour shared by a doctor into their confession in such a way to precisely correlate to the time and location, later proven to be factually correct? Unbelievable!

Every piece of evidence that incriminates RA cannot possibly be the result of a wide reaching conspiracy to make him appear guilty. The simplest explanation is RA confessed to what occurred that day, knowing firsthand how he got interrupted. JMO

Imo, yes it can possibly be the result of a wide reaching conspiracy to make him appear guilty. The evidence doesn't fit RA imo so much as it has been twisted and presented to appear to fit RA. We don't even have a time of death short of sometime between when they went DTH and when they were found dead. We have not heard about stomach contents (why not?). We didn't hear about if toxicology was done (why not)? We didn't even have investigators who knew to take the sticks at the scene to the lab. Moo.

 

[Boxer]

And, IMO, none of that has anything to do with what RA was up to the afternoon of 13 February 2017.

And he can't/won't tell us either, but IMO the evidence can.

And, once more - RA also confessed prior to the psych meds. It didn't all happen afterwards.

Agree.
He was in segregation for his safety - he is a tantrum dude so he tantrummed.
Which is also consistent with the an apparent tantrum at the CS.

 

[MollyDDD]

Strongly disagree. When he is found guilty I hope he prison is he'll for him.

It already is.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Agree.
He was in ssegregation for his safety - he is a tantrum dude so he tantrummed.
Which is also consistent with the an apparent tantrum at the CS.

Agree. He didn’t get it his way and he had a meltdown.
Guess letting them go and walking away wasn’t an option. Someone had to pay for his displeasure with their lives.
If he had let them go there is a good chance he would have never been identified.
Unless he tried again. Which I bet he would.
Jmo

 

[sunshineray]

If I were his lawyer, knowing how shoddy the original investigation was, I would not advise him to seek a plea deal. Even if I thought he was guilty, I would advise him that his best chance would be to go to trial. If convicted, he can appeal if he does not take a deal - can he get an appeal if he takes a plea deal? I'm not sure he can but I'm not a lawyer so I am actually asking.

Even the original investigation errors aside, their investigation of, and treatment of him since 2022 has been horrific imo. Add to that the issues with Wala being his prison psychologist and the issues she introduced to the case? I'd be doing exactly what his team are doing - pursuing trial and appeals on conviction. I wouldn't even have hired another psychologist to assess him - why bother when Wala makes their job so easy? MOO.

Its not defense counsel's job to care about the victims or their loved ones. That is not to say they do not / cannot care about them, however, their job, their sole responsibility is RA and what is in HIS best interest, even if that causes upset or hurt to the loved ones left behind and the community at large. Imo a plea deal would not have been in HIS best interest. MOO.

You don't think his lawyers have been remiss in any way in the handling of RA's case? A man who wants to and has plead guilty to the brutal murders of two girls...his wishes should have been ignored, his lawyers did nothing wrong with the handling of that? He should go free and everything the DT has done in the course of this case has just been zealous, they've done nothing wrong? LE has lied, witnesses have lied, even RA has lied? Mummm, I don't believe it. A guilty man wanted to plea guilty but was not allowed to do so, as simple as that. That is JMO. Respectfully, we're worlds apart in thinking

 

[fred&edna]

Looking ahead to this week, I am eagerly awaiting the prosecutors cross examination of the videos the defense has shown of RA in custody. They have said that they will do their cross once all the videos are shown.

I am still disturbed that they were not shown to the courtroom…and without sound, and without context….from the little that has been reported.

I agree, especially because context is vital.

jmo

 

[steeltowngirl]

Well if anyone was wondering if RA was really watching fish, this video shows there is no way possible he saw any fish.

I found it interesting that he apparently admitted to his wife that he was at the trail that day, but did not tell her he had gone onto to the bridge and out to the platform.

jmo

 

[DoctorRose]

Interesting. BARD is designed to you to get your own decision making into the process.
It guilty or not guilty based on evieence presented.

And I guess one can count the defense not really presenting a defense as evidence of a sort.

I guess I do think he probably did it but I think the case presented so far leaves some wiggle room for doubt at this time.

 

[otto]

It really makes no sense.
"At 2:31 p.m., Cecil said cell phone records note a change in longitude, altitude and elevation which means the phone was moving.
By 2:32 p.m., Cecil testified the phone stopped and never moved again. He told the court it didn't ping anywhere outside the trails, Deer Creek and the site where the girls' bodies were found the next day."

Libby German's phone data analyzed at Delphi double-murder trial: 'You need to call me now!'

The analysis comes as defense attorneys are trying to introduce the Odinism theory into Richard Allen's double-murder trial.

abc7chicago.com

Imo if the phone stopped moving at 2:32, they were already where the phone would later be found - about 50ft from the creek up the cemetery side. Nowhere near BW's place or that road. I also question whether any such vehicle could have been seen by RA or the kids from the lower elevation on the north side of the creek. They went "down the hill" - it looks fairly steep imo - I doubt any car could have been seen from "down the hill". MOO.

Police confirm bodies found near Delphi are missing teens, searching for suspect

50ft from the creek - no way they're getting from the side where BW was to where that phone was found - going through the cold water no less, in time for anyone to notice BW if he was arriving in the area at that time. MOOO. Not realistic to get from DTH to the other side, AND 50ft up what the state calls: "difficult terrain" (search my prior posts to see NM's response to a motion by the D to have the jury visit the scene for this quote) in such a short period of time just because the abductor was spooked. Sorry, not buying that for a hot minute!

This first map has been posted several time thanks to @m00c0w

It shows that Richard Allen and the girls, according to the timeline, were on the South side of the creek when the white van drove nearby. This explains the movement of the girls between abduction and murders.

It's true, at the time that the phone stopped moving, Richard Allen and the girls had moved farther away from the road. The may not have been visible from the road after they relocated to the ravine.

"A chart in Cecil’s report outlined the recorded movement for Libby’s phone on February 13, 2017:

1:31 pm – 2:08 pm – 1,682 steps (707.34 meters)
2:08 pm – 2:18 pm – 414.38 meters
2:25 pm – 2:32 pm – 66 steps (50.64 meters)
2:31 pm – two-floor elevation change

Cecil’s testimony explained the iPhone uses 10 feet as it’s estimation for distance for a “floor,” meaning the two-floor elevation change would be about 20 feet. The Health App, he explained, doesn’t record a duration for the elevation change. He said that it happened during the steps taken from 2:25 pm to 2:32 pm.

“February 13, 2017 at 2:32:39 pm was the last date and time the iPhone logged movement until it was charged and forensically examined on February 15, 2017,” the report read."​

https://www.wane.com/top-stories/he-was-covered-in-mud-and-blood-bridge-guy-witness-testimonies-continue/

The second map shows location of girls, van, and timeline.

topo map reference: Delphi topographic map 1:24,000 scale, Indiana

 

[Cyber sleuth]

I agree, especially because context is vital.

jmo

Yes and my understanding is many of the videos were skipped and scenes were cherry picked by defense.
Again what would the defense do to defend RA if not for his confessions.
How about provide an alibi and attack the evidence.
Instead all they have focused on everything but.
Jmo