Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #35

[bellgirl]

Would someone with dementia be allowed to drive??

Marly, I'm still many pages behind and feeling like an idiot. Someone's probably answered this by now. Dad was able to drive (even with a diagnosis of Dementia) for a number of years. His skills of how to drive safely and carefully on the streets wasn't a problem - mentally and physically. The issue came when he couldn't remember where my house was, or where the shop was or where ever he was going. That's when my Mum turned his license in. It was her decision, and probably advised by their doctor. That was Dad's first taste of his life being taken away from him.

Dementia sufferers begin forgetting recent happenings. This increases to events/people within the past days, then weeks, months and then years. They are still able to function and don't forget the old, rote rules of learning how to drive. However, in later stages, many of them might not know where they are actually going.

So Marly, it was up to my Mum in the end and I think advice from their GP. I'm not aware of any Senior testing or specific Laws in place for Dementia patients etc. I could be wrong, and maybe good old Dad (and Mum) dodged them for a bit!

 

[Makara]

thanks Makara, so what I dont understand as I can never find the quotes I need, is, was the chipped tooth mentioned by the defense as being an injury related to her demise? or an injury that occurred post mortem?

After thinking a lot about the hands etc, it occurred to me only today, that this rumour could have started very easily as a chinese whisper that started like this:

When Allison was found, there would have been MUCH discussion between the many many people at the site, in regards to her physical state. When you consider the amount of experts (expert dudes even) that needed to participate , a lot of people would have had a lot to mull over. I think that its highly possible, that her fingers/fingertips/extremities were nibbled on by prawns. It sounds sad yet also stupid to say it out loud. But I have checked for prawn activity and it is high in the mouth of Kholo. I will link it if anyone wants me to go find it (I was told this two weeks ago by the same person who told me the finger story, so I have tried to keep these things aside as I believe its just more rumour)
So, my next question would be, 'would extremities be something that could 'go' first??


I said earlier today, in a post to Pulp, that the idea of removing her hands or fingers seems ridiculous and outrageous to me, that he could or would do this to her. I still feel this way (but dont always trust myself as I have trouble seeing the bad in people, so I assume I am just being too naive again) anyway, bottom line, I can't sit through the minutes (in my head) needed to recreate the cutting off of hands or fingers in my mind.

Ok sorry....what I want to say is that these workers could have made minor comments that relate to the state of her body. It would take a millisecond for someone to interpret a statement that was made in realtion to predator activity like, 'she had no fingers' or 'her hands were completely gone' to mean they were removed by her killer.

Minni, from memory the chipped tooth was mentioned as the only external injury. Davis theorised that there were no other external injuries so how could Allison have bled in the car. A poor attempt at casting doubt IMO.

It's quite possible that extremities could be removed quite easily by scavengers etc. My husband (when in the police force) has recovered dead bodies where the hands were missing due to scavenging activity. Possum mentioned water rats live within the Kholo Creek area. They are horrible things and will eat anything! Eeeww!

I totally agree with your bolded paragraph above and IMO this is how the rumour came about.

BBM.

MOO.

 

[Nads]

It's a very good question Mani. I've thought a lot about it. My gut feeling and it's pure speculation is that she was placed there as its close to the Brisbane River and also perhaps because it might have been the most convenient place to dump a body in that area - even though a distance from the house. Often a body is easier found when buried. In water it's a little trickier but in a creek that is quite snaggy it's risky. The water also makes a difference to decomposition and trace evidence - but that's dependent on when the body is found. I think it seems apparent finding her was needed for the insurance money but I think GBC hoped she'd make it out into the river as:

1. More decomposition.
2. Further away reducing the likelihood he did it that night
3. Less chance for evidence and of course accurately determining cause of death - meaning it opens up the argument for suicide or abduction.

I personally think GBC wouldn't plead guilty as he's hoping the circumstantial case is weak and he'll get off via reasonable doubt. As Allison was found (and I think he was surprised perhaps by that) his MMO (means, motive, opportunity) are more established perhaps.

The creek is interesting. I know it but not well. The scout grounds is interesting also. One would have to think he knew that area reasonably well. As for where she ended up and started? Don't know. Lots of rain had to have played a part, and I don't think that was a factor considered by the dumper.

Just don't know - like the rest of us plenty of great ideas on here though. I think surveyors being seen there is important as someone reported on here.

I thought Mani might have been asking your opinion of the psychological factors and the thinking of GBC. That is, did he deliberately put her in water because she hated it? Did he place her in Little Ugly Creek as she was thought of as beautiful?

Is this what you meant Mani?

 

[Nads]

Marly, I'm still many pages behind and feeling like an idiot. Someone's probably answered this by now. Dad was able to drive (even with a diagnosis of Dementia) for a number of years. His skills of how to drive safely and carefully on the streets wasn't a problem - mentally and physically. The issue came when he couldn't remember where my house was, or where the shop was or where ever he was going. That's when my Mum turned his license in. It was her decision, and probably advised by their doctor. That was Dad's first taste of his life being taken away from him.

Dementia sufferers begin forgetting recent happenings. This increases to events/people within the past days, then weeks, months and then years. They are still able to function and don't forget the old, rote rules of learning how to drive. However, in later stages, many of them might not know where they are actually going.

So Marly, it was up to my Mum in the end and I think advice from their GP. I'm not aware of any Senior testing or specific Laws in place for Dementia patients etc. I could be wrong, and maybe good old Dad (and Mum) dodged them for a bit!

These days it has changed. A health professional is obliged to report to QLD Transport if they know a patient is driving and they have a health condition that would make it dangerous. It's called Jet's Law after a little boy who was killed by someone with epilepsy. It's also mandatory that the person with the condition also report the condition to QT.

Edit - actually the wording in this document seems to have changed. It's saying health professionals don't have to report it. This has changed!
http://parkinsons-qld.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/jets_law_driver_fact_sheet.pdf

Dementia, even early, would make it dangerous. If the person continues to drive they wouldn't be covered by their insurance coverage necessarily either.

 

[pulpfiction]

So Marly, it was up to my Mum in the end and I think advice from their GP. I'm not aware of any Senior testing or specific Laws in place for Dementia patients etc. I could be wrong, and maybe good old Dad (and Mum) dodged them for a bit!

I'm not sure how old your Dad was or where but I do know in Qld Over the age of 75 (from memory) a test is given by GP (or nurse practitioner) in regard to car licensing. Both my parents had it done again recently. It involves questions like what is the date, month, year, day of the week, who is prime minister, what you had for dinner last night, who is in your family etc. etc. it is similar to what is asked when a person has been knocked out also as an example. My mother, who was an anesthesiologist is slowly succumbing to memory loss. She's fully functional but occasionally can't remember the date, or the name of common things like a can opener, and just says "oh the thing, you know the thing". She gets it when you say the name. She also is very easily rattled these days as she's aware here memory isn't what it used to be. She very often misplaces her car/house keys and then gets agitated going through her bulky handbag in a frenzy unable to locate them yet they will be in there somewhere. She panics basically. She forgets which child she has told what to - as there are 4 of us and so repeats stories. The mind, in her case, has started to decay and she is aware of it and it frazzled her. But she's still sharp and drives. She doesn't forget her bearings but I think she will have to stop driving in the next few years. She is extrmely stubborn and her reactions are slower also - part of age part of the onset of memory loss.

My grandmother lost everything except childhood memories to dementia. Sad. She had a stroke and dropped dead at the nursing home living it up dancing like a happy little school girl. She was happy and had no idea she was a 91 year old great granny or that she'd drop to the floor never to regain consciousness. For her a pleasant way to go. No pain, no awareness, apparently nothing. Bam down she went, over and out. We often in my family, make a humorous black joke about her Alzheimers (of course finally confirmed post portem) that she went out kicking up her heels, flouncing her dress, probably showing off her knickers to all and sundry whilst laughing her head off. Poor granny but god love her happy disposition as some become quite violent but her slipping away was not frightening to her. One day she remembered most things, then the next she seemed to totally lose an awareness of the stress of not being able to remember nearly everything. She'd just say "ah....Nup don't know about that"! Astonishing.

 

[marlywings]

I tend to mull this over as well. Something snapped. It may have been planned but the killing is the secondary behaviour. The primary behaviour is the motive. There was reason, there nearly always is even if a stranger is killed. So what made GBC go through with his plan or snap that night I wonder? The money is only a part of it I feel. I don't think he could be thinking TM was the one, because the risk of prison is too great if caught (and there was little doubt he'd be a prime suspect) and he had other women (at some point). If it was premeditated then it's the worst murder planned Ina long time. That's why I think he snapped that night. He could have planned to kill her in much simpler way without raising the suspicion he has is what I feel. The execution seems so sloppy with so many variables present he could have easily eliminated. I wonder if we will find out everything. There was certainly a bit that the jury never heard about Max Sica!

I think pre-med had to be involved to some extent with his enquiries about insurance & self-incrimination searches day/s before she was killed. I think he was mr miserable, on the edge with severe money problems/business all downhill ....add to that the mistress making demands ...the life insurance was his escape route....but I don't think the murder was going to take place on the 19th April. Because of the above he had begun to think about killing her & making it appear she'd suicided...that was plan A.

Something snapped that night??...I think it may have initially been Allison who snapped...she comes home from hairdresser looking gorgeous, looking forward to the conference the following day. Mr miserable GBC sees her happy & looking pretty... so to belittle her, in an evil narky way, he dropped the bombshell on her about his ongoing relationship with TM & that she'll be at the conference too. I think being told all this would anger any woman...she snapped, launched at him scratching & kicking...he murdered her.... I tend to think he strangled her. Because he'd killed her earlier than planned, he resorted to plan B...make it appear an abduction.

From the affidavit...

Mr Boyle said it would be the Crown’s case that the Baden-Clays argued over the relationship on the night Mrs Baden-Clay was killed.

 

[Kimster]

Someone needs to find a link where it says NBC has dementia. Stat.

 

[DrWatson]

Someone needs to find a link where it says NBC has dementia. Stat.

That's kinda what I meant by my earlier post in which I suggested that these things take on a life of their own, based on a suggestion, a hypothesis, or pure speculation.

I doubt he has dementia.

And people can still drive with mild dementia too - in answer to a couple of the other posts, and no, as medicos, we don't have to report that. Only if we think that they are incapable of driving safely. Which I've done on a few occasions. But given that they need regular medical certificates over a certain age (I think that age differs from state to state - it's 75 here in Queensland), the problem is lessened by the fact that we can just NOT issue the certificate. Most patients who are in that position are actually relieved, not annoyed. And the families are usually even more relieved.

 

[Elspeth]

I think pre-med had to be involved to some extent with his enquiries about insurance & self-incrimination searches day/s before she was killed. I think he was mr miserable, on the edge with severe money problems/business all downhill ....add to that the mistress making demands ...the life insurance was his escape route....but I don't think the murder was going to take place on the 19th April. Because of the above he had begun to think about killing her & making it appear she'd suicided...that was plan A.

Something snapped that night??...I think it may have initially been Allison who snapped...she comes home from hairdresser looking gorgeous, looking forward to the conference the following day. Mr miserable GBC sees her happy & looking pretty... so to belittle her, in an evil narky way, he dropped the bombshell on her about his ongoing relationship with TM & that she'll be at the conference too. I think being told all this would anger any woman...she snapped, launched at him scratching & kicking...he murdered her.... I tend to think he strangled her. Because he'd killed her earlier than planned, he resorted to plan B...make it appear an abduction.

From the affidavit...

Mr Boyle said it would be the Crown’s case that the Baden-Clays argued over the relationship on the night Mrs Baden-Clay was killed.

I can easily imagine an argument ensuing the way you say over the conference and with TM going to be there, but I cannot fathom how everything took place from there with the little girls being in the house. Beyond me...

 

[DrWatson]

Bellgirl - Alzheimer's Disease is what used to be called "pre-senile dementia". The reason I mentioned it in relation to the posts on NBC possibly having dementia is that he is only 69 - young to get the classical "senile dementia". And the point I was actually making was that I know of people who DO have mild Alzheimers who continue to drive quite OK.

It is a type of dementia that tends to come on earlier in life, and tends to affect those over 65. The incidence rises once over about 85. It is one of a group of conditions collectively termed "dementias". Some are metabolic, some are physical damage in the brain (Alzheimer's is thought to be one of those), and some are quite a mystery - just the functional deterioration.

Many people as they get older - and I'm talking over 75-80 broadly - will show signs on a CT scan (or MRI) of the brain such as atrophy of the brain, particularly the gyri and sulci on the surface of the cerebral hemispheres.

But basically, the dementias comprise a group of conditions, the common features being deteriorating brain function, particularly memory. Alzheimer's is one of these.

Hope that makes sense.

And no - I don't think NBC has dementia, Alzheimer's or otherwise, although I'm not a neurologist and I haven't examined him.

EDIT: Here's a brief summary of just a few of the different types of dementia:

http://www.fightdementia.org.au/understanding-dementia/types-of-dementia.aspx

'NOTHER EDIT: I see Bellgirl's original post was deleted, and I didn't quote it in mine, so in case my post doesn't make much sense, she was just asking about Alzheimer's and how it related to the more general term of "dementia"..... Maybe this information is useful for those who have been discussing dementia, although I don't think it pertains to this case. If the Mods think it better just to delete this post, then please feel free to do so.

 

[Makara]

I can easily imagine an argument ensuing the way you say over the conference and with TM going to be there, but I cannot fathom how everything took place from there with the little girls being in the house. Beyond me...

I've pondered over this quite a lot Elspeth. IMO opinion Allison was murdered in her bed. She may have been sedated beforehand but that's not known at this stage. I feel that she was either strangled or smothered. IMO Allison was taken unawares and when she realised what was happening she put up a fight, scratching and kicking to save herself. Perhaps GBC, in a fit of rage grabbed Allison around the throat but never meant to actually kill her. If her murder was in fact premeditated it's my opinion that she was smothered but once again she put up a fight. This is all speculation on my part.

I can't get the thought out of my mind that the girls may have heard Allison's muffled screams when she was being murdered but the poor little darlings were too scared to go and see if their mother was ok . If Allison and GBC did have a loud argument that night as has been reported, the girls may have just cringed in their beds, praying for it to stop.

That was very difficult to type. :tears:

MOO.

 

[Makara]

Bellgirl - Alzheimer's Disease is what used to be called "pre-senile dementia". The reason I mentioned it in relation to the posts on NBC possibly having dementia is that he is only 69 - young to get the classical "senile dementia". And the point I was actually making was that I know of people who DO have mild Alzheimers who continue to drive quite OK.

It is a type of dementia that tends to come on earlier in life, and tends to affect those over 65. The incidence rises once over about 85. It is one of a group of conditions collectively termed "dementias". Some are metabolic, some are physical damage in the brain (Alzheimer's is thought to be one of those), and some are quite a mystery - just the functional deterioration.

Many people as they get older - and I'm talking over 75-80 broadly - will show signs on a CT scan (or MRI) of the brain such as atrophy of the brain, particularly the gyri and sulci on the surface of the cerebral hemispheres.

But basically, the dementias comprise a group of conditions, the common features being deteriorating brain function, particularly memory. Alzheimer's is one of these.

Hope that makes sense.

And no - I don't think NBC has dementia, Alzheimer's or otherwise, although I'm not a neurologist and I haven't examined him.

EDIT: Here's a brief summary of just a few of the different types of dementia:

http://www.fightdementia.org.au/understanding-dementia/types-of-dementia.aspx

'NOTHER EDIT: I see Bellgirl's original post was deleted, and I didn't quote it in mine, so in case my post doesn't make much sense, she was just asking about Alzheimer's and how it related to the more general term of "dementia"..... Maybe this information is useful for those who have been discussing dementia, although I don't think it pertains to this case. If the Mods think it better just to delete this post, then please feel free to do so.

Thanks Doc. For what it's worth, I don't believe that NBC is suffering from dementia at all. IMO this is another rumour that was borne from the rumour that NBC was seen in the bus shelter at the roundabout late on the Thursday night. From what I've read here on WS, someone approached the man in the bus shelter, apparently recognised him, asked if he was ok but he seemed a bit addled and was not making sense. Another report mentioned that he said something about his son (can't find the link and IMO it's BS anyway). The next thing I read here is that NBC probably suffers from dementia and then that rumour takes off. :banghead:

 

[Fuskier]

I agree with you Mami.

Hawkins has been an asset to Websleuths.

You can see by the response that that he was well received and respected.
He gave his time to help out. I miss his comments.
We could do with more Hawkins. :rocker:

Agreed KEEKTOKNOW: His comments spoke for themselves. Hawkins assisted sleuthers each time there seemed to be a gap in our legal knowledge. His timing was remarkable, so his words hit the right spot each time. He assisted our understanding of the Criminal proceedings for a start. Some choose to post as being anonymous; their privacy ensures that we are able to enjoy their learned contributions from which we all benefit in the understanding of this case. IMO.

 

[Fuskier]

Some people don't verify - for a variety of reasons. Some people do...

... It's best to decide quietly if you take it or leave it or perhaps message the person privately if you want to clarify. I don't think verified posters or insiders are being objective if they "thank" someone who is being confrontational or berating a poster who gives an opinion. I find that unprofessional if you're verified as no one has the right to suppress another's opinions or idea regardless of who and what you are. In that case it's better to say nothing at all. I am not making any specific reference to ANY verified poster on here be it professional, insider, local or ANY other poster. I am speaking broadly hoping we all play nice otherwise people drop off and with such a long wait there won't be many to chat and hypothesize with. Again...just saying that's all. Each to their own.

Well said IMO.

 

[appleblossom]

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ion-with-parents/story-e6freon6-1226437064918

Poor Gerard's not too happy these days.....

 

[pulpfiction]

I think pre-med had to be involved to some extent with his enquiries about insurance & self-incrimination searches day/s before she was killed. I think he was mr miserable, on the edge with severe money problems/business all downhill ....add to that the mistress making demands ...the life insurance was his escape route....but I don't think the murder was going to take place on the 19th April. Because of the above he had begun to think about killing her & making it appear she'd suicided...that was plan A.

Something snapped that night??...I think it may have initially been Allison who snapped...she comes home from hairdresser looking gorgeous, looking forward to the conference the following day. Mr miserable GBC sees her happy & looking pretty... so to belittle her, in an evil narky way, he dropped the bombshell on her about his ongoing relationship with TM & that she'll be at the conference too. I think being told all this would anger any woman...she snapped, launched at him scratching & kicking...he murdered her.... I tend to think he strangled her. Because he'd killed her earlier than planned, he resorted to plan B...make it appear an abduction.

From the affidavit...

Mr Boyle said it would be the Crown’s case that the Baden-Clays argued over the relationship on the night Mrs Baden-Clay was killed.

Yes...I think that is a very good theory. I do feel that something made him snap and the logical thing of course is the argument and it was probably to do with the affair. It's a good point about her hair etc and GBC or Allison starting it, really having a go at each other. Something made him snap it seems (to me). The phone inquiry could still have been to do with not being able to pay the insurance premium but I suspect that planted a seed in his mind of how to improve his situation. The stress of his tale of woes has magnified, hence maybe the "insurance money will solve it all" theory. When that happens, and I've seen it before, the obsessive and compulsive thoughts can begin to dominate and eventually it seems like the only answer. The pressure of TM also contributed heavily I think. If they spoke that afternoon as it stated in the affidavit, you can bet safely GBC was highly agitated. With that can come the awfulness of displaced anger. Ie. he was angry, pressured and stressed about TM and maybe, Allison pushes his buttons a little (who could blame her if he was cranky with her) he then takes out all his aggression, dissatisfaction of everything he despises and is worrying about on her. An over-reaction. Again this has happened many times also but it does appear he had some premeditation perhaps.

I think it will be so very interesting hearing from TM. I think she was putting huge pressure on GBC. I wonder also what her position financially is? How is she placed with respect to debt and money. I guess if she had money there is less likelihood for GBC to deal with Allison as he did or TM would bail him out (even if partially). We've all heard of women giving men heaps of money only to be dumped.

So lastly, it seems maybe, and I mean just maybe, there was a little more than money and TM on GBC mind that day. Pure speculation on my part but it is possible Allison, having had enough, threatened him with something that day. Herself finally cracking. Embarrassment, publicly outing him, contacting creditors herself and even threatening to cancel the policy if they got onto the subject of reducing expenditure.

Also, another thought is this. Wouldn't it be telling if Allison found out GBC had again contacted or had fin. Adv. contact insurance company recently and/or she found out what he'd googled and confronted him, which enraged and panicked him causing him to snap and kill her immediately before he loses the opportunity. That's happened where men have been found out before. Lots of people in prison for conspiracy to commit murder. Anyway, I don't know...just postulating

 

[grannie]

Gerard Baden-Clay has emotional reunion with parents

 

[Mani]

I thought Mani might have been asking your opinion of the psychological factors and the thinking of GBC. That is, did he deliberately put her in water because she hated it? Did he place her in Little Ugly Creek as she was thought of as beautiful?

Is this what you meant Mani?

Thank you Nads, that is exactly what I was referring to. Cheers

 

[Nads]

Thank you Nads, that is exactly what I was referring to. Cheers

Pulpfiction, do you have any thoughts on what Mani meant by her original question?

 

[Mani]

It's a very good question Mani. I've thought a lot about it. My gut feeling and it's pure speculation is that she was placed there as its close to the Brisbane River and also perhaps because it might have been the most convenient place to dump a body in that area - even though a distance from the house. Often a body is easier found when buried. In water it's a little trickier but in a creek that is quite snaggy it's risky. The water also makes a difference to decomposition and trace evidence - but that's dependent on when the body is found. I think it seems apparent finding her was needed for the insurance money but I think GBC hoped she'd make it out into the river as:

1. More decomposition.
2. Further away reducing the likelihood he did it that night
3. Less chance for evidence and of course accurately determining cause of death - meaning it opens up the argument for suicide or abduction.

I personally think GBC wouldn't plead guilty as he's hoping the circumstantial case is weak and he'll get off via reasonable doubt. As Allison was found (and I think he was surprised perhaps by that) his MMO (means, motive, opportunity) are more established perhaps.

The creek is interesting. I know it but not well. The scout grounds is interesting also. One would have to think he knew that area reasonably well. As for where she ended up and started? Don't know. Lots of rain had to have played a part, and I don't think that was a factor considered by the dumper.

Just don't know - like the rest of us plenty of great ideas on here though. I think surveyors being seen there is important as someone reported on here.

Thanks Pulps. Is there a possibility that GBC could have an subconscious need to humiliate his wife and hence place her in an environment that frightened her i.e. water and also was so jealous of her real world ability/talents/skills etc. that he put her in a place with a name like Little Ugly Creek (which is nearby to where Allison was found)???

I am the place where he put Allison, as let's face it - he had not one but two 4wd vehicles, the weather had been dry and he lived in an area that had a lot of national park and bushland that was accessible by 4wd.
There were a lot of places Allison could have been placed but he chose to put her where he did.

IMHO