Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #38

[chekoutchik]

Bearbear he should've said ticks. There are lots down at the creek. MOO

If a caterpiller was irritating me I would brush it off. I wouldn't let it continue to gnaw or sting me to the point of that many scratch marks. Rather suspect IMHO

 

[Fuskier]

I am not surprised by tomorrow’s court application by Mr Dickie. I have been expecting it. My educated guess ( having done many court applications for deceased estates) is that Allison appointed GBC as her executor in her will like most spouses do. He is probably also her sole beneficiary in the event he survives her for 30 days and if not then it would likely be the 3 girls. Most spouses then provide alternate or back up executors in case their spouse can’t act as executor because, to use the common will wording “ they are unable or unwilling to act or die before my estate is completely administered”.

Allison probably appointed her father Mr Dickie as her back up executor. GBC being in remand is clearly unable to act as executor. As Keentoknow told us, persons in remand can’t do anything to do with paperwork relating to finances. Therefore GBC would not be allowed to act as executor because of remand rules. An executor can renounce his appointment as executor if they don’t want to or cannot do the job. That then leaves the back up executor free to apply to the Supreme Court registry for a Grant of Probate of the will without it having to go before a judge. It is usually a straightforward process. I am sure GBC could get permission from the prison to sign such a document renouncing his appointment as executor. The fact that Mr Dickie is having to make a court application could mean 2 things. Either GBC has refused to sign a renunciation or maybe Mr Dickie is not the back up executor in the will.

Whatever is the situation, it appears from the news report that Mr Dickie is making an application to the Supreme Court for an order that he be appointed to administer Allison’s estate. If successful, he then has the legal authority of the court to collect her assets including life insurance and superannuation, pay her estate debts ( which may be a tricky job to work out what the estate is liable for) and then invest and hold the balance estate upon trust for whoever may ultimately be entitled to it. If GBC is the sole beneficiary then it won’t be known if he is entitled to the estate until he is either convicted or acquitted of the murder charges. If he is convicted then he is not allowed to benefit from his victim’s estate and the alternate beneficiaries, likely the girls, will be the beneficiaries when they turn 18. If he is acquitted then he will be entitled.

So tomorrow’s application may be contested or uncontested. There will be a callover by the judge at 10am when he will ask for estimates of time from the lawyers that each of the matters listed will take. He will then say what order he intends to hear those matters. Eventually Mr Dickie’s matter will be heard and hopefully an order made on the spot. It could take about an hour. I expect that Mr Dickie would be there with his lawyer. GBC’s lawyer may also be there, but I expect that GBC would not oppose the orders sought.

We will no doubt find out what happens tomorrow by MSM reports.

Very informative. Thank you Alioop for your solid contribution.

 

[alioop]

Whoever gets appointed as the administrator of Allison's estate ( hopefully Mr Dickie) will not have an easy job. Identifying estate assets will be difficult. One half of any joint assets ( shares, bank accounts for eg) that she and GBC held, will have to be separated until GBC's guilt or innocence is determined. The law says that normally on the death of a joint asset owner, the asset then becomes the survivor's. However there is an exception when one of the joint owner kills the other as they can't benefit from that person's death.

I think Allison's life insurance will be an asset of her estate. She must have been the policy owner as well as the life insured because when GBC allegedly made enquiries with the insurance company prior to her death, they wouldn't give him any info. This means, regardless of an expression in the policy of her preferred beneficiaries, the life insurance company will pay it to her estate. I expect their position would be that they require a grant of administration before they will pay it out.

Re her superannuation with life insurance, if this is a commercial insurance company and not a self managed fund, I expect given the circumstances that they would pay it to the estate rather than any family members in particular. GBC could always consent to them paying it to a trust for the children but I doubt he would do this. He would want it in the estate just in case he is ultimately entitled to the estate if he is acquitted.

The companies and business and debts will be the tricky part to administer and lawyers and accountants will need to assist the administrator. There may be a need for court applications down the track to seek some court guidance on the estate's interest or liability in this regard.

The money that has been raised for the girls has nothing to do with Allison's estate. It is a completely separate trust with its own trustees. It is safe from GBC.

 

[chekoutchik]

Nads, I don't know how long the hearing will take. What I am wondering though is who will actually be there. Obviously Geoff and maybe Pricilla Dickie will attend. It will be interesting to see if any of the clan turn up to represent GBC. I wouldn't be surprised if twisted sister is there. Although they'll probably leave it to GBC's lawyer to work it out.

I so wish I could be there tomorrow. Not so much to attend the actual hearing but to just be there to give the Dickie's support, however ineffectual it may be.

Mr Dickie may not be required to attend. He doesn't have to does he? I suppose if the Judge wanted to ask questions. Although the lawyer could answer those???

 

[BreakingNews]

The dickies were standing next to GBC at the funeral, were they watching and worried over the children? What fear they must have suffered when GBC was looking after the children before the arrest. I wonder what information they know now & at what point did they actually realise that GBC murdered Allison. The Dickies are salt of the earth people.

Touché !!

I think they were probably suspicious of GBC right from the start. He sure didn't go out of his way to offer them support or anything. Left them to arrange the funeral while he had a weekend away, which was probably for the best anyway. Before that he didn't lift a finger to look for Allison. All the while, the Dickies were taking food to the search HQ for the SES/police and were there each day. Such wonderful, dignified people! Sure didn't deserve GBC in their lives.

 

[alioop]

Mr Dickie may not be required to attend. He doesn't have to does he? I suppose if the Judge wanted to ask questions. Although the lawyer could answer those???

If Mr Dickie was my client, I would want him to come to court. The judge may ask a question that the lawyer would need to ask Mr Dickie so he should be there, otherwise it has to get adjourned and that is wasting time and money. Also judges like to eyeball the person who is asking for an order to appoint them administrator of an estate.

 

[Mani]

If a caterpiller was irritating me I would brush it off. I wouldn't let it continue to gnaw or sting me to the point of that many scratch marks. Rather suspect IMHO

:floorlaugh: Ticks and caterpillars - that caterpillar has had more airplay than an old Elvis record...........IMO

 

[grannie]

Photos of interior of BC house...

Thanks, Marly. These shots give a strange feeling.

 

[AAAA]

First up on 9news....information to say Graham Stafford may be charged again for the murder of Leanne Holland.

No! Surely not!

 

[AAAA]

apparently geoff dickie has lodged documents with the court in relation to allison's will, her property etc. So that the dickies can pay outstanding bills, presumedly in allison's name. These papers have been served on gbc in jail. The court hearing is sheduled for tomorrow morning but don't expect gbc to be there.

Go geoffy! :woohoo:

go mr dickie!!!!!!!!!!

 

[summer_breeze]

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...baden-clay-files/story-e6frg6nf-1226463795583

ROSANNE BARRETT From: The Australian September 03, 2012 10:46AM

<snipped>

The affidavit states that he is alleged to have given inconsistent versions of events to witnesses and there was "some degree of planning" from web searches around the time of her disappearance.

This one little snippet has piqued my curiosity.

Does this mean QPS believes (and have evidence) that the murder was pre-meditated?

Sure would take away from "heat of the moment" possible defense if so.

Are there different degrees of murder charges in Australia, like there are in the US? (Murder 1, Murder 2) With different penalties assessed?

 

[Fuskier]

This one little snippet has piqued my curiosity.
Does this mean QPS believes (and have evidence) that the murder was pre-meditated?
Sure would take away from "heat of the moment" possible defense if so.
Are there different degrees of murder charges in Australia, like there are in the US? (Murder 1, Murder 2) With different penalties assessed?

Summer Breeze this is the quote I was looking for to start my earlier post regarding the discussion between Amee and DrWatson - but due to time constraints, I was not able to find it. There it is, in the affidavit itself that there was some degree of planning. This speaks volumes in my opinion.

We can also add these comments:
Marlywings:
Sunday June 24, 2012
...And he and the couple's three children were alone in the house with Allison on the night of her death, a fact which was particularly relevant, Mr Boyle said.
http://www.skynewsbusiness.com.au/to...=Top Stories

The facts stated by Mr Boyle speak for themselves. Allison left her message on GBC's armpit, chest and face. This tells the story. One could equally say that it was up to the Defence to prove 'beyond reasonable doubt' that it was otherwise. My opinion only, not fact.

 

[Onlyone]

Just catching up on the day, thanks Alioop for that informative post. Just had a thought - how quickly would Super pay out? Please tell me that's not in the bail/defense pot?
Nothing would surprise me from that family. I wish Mr Dickie every success in obtaining control of what is rightfully the children's - although I guess that will also carry the burden of GBC's debts too.

 

[Makara]

Father of Allison Baden-Clay applying to control her estate.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8328635&postcount=106"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - AU-Allison Baden-Clay,43,Brisbane QLD, 19April2012 MEDIA/TIMELINE LINKS,NO DISCUSSION[/ame]

 

[Makara]

Alioop, thank you for the very informative posts. One question I would like to ask is in regard to the joint shares that Allison held with GBC, worth about $135,000. Apparently GBC withdrew $67,000 from this share portfolio prior to his arrest. How was he able to do this without Allison's approval? Would it be a case of either shareholder being entitled to withdraw funds without the consent of the other party?

One more question (I posted this yesterday but it got lost in the traffic). Will each of the 446 witnesses who have given a statement to police be expected to take the stand in the event of a trial? My assumption is that all of these statements are admissible evidence and the prosecution will be wanting these witnesses to state their evidence in front of the judge. Would this also be the case at a committal hearing where the prosecutor presents the case against the defendant and calls witnesses to obtain their evidence?

 

[Rational]

I find it interesting that the application is made at this particular time (ie before the forensic accountant's report has been handed over by the prosecution to the defence team).

In my view this could mean one of two things. Either the Dickies have this information and it is a tactical move to try and make the claim on behalf of the girls as relevant claimants to the estate. Or there is a concern that it may be unclear if in fact some of the debts and loans taken out by GBC could in fact still be regarded as debts and loans against the estate depending on the nature of the financial involvement of Allison in the business and the Dickies want to ensure that the money is only used for Allison's component of the debts not for the totality of the debt.


Either way, it could be a double edged sword, and would depend very heavily on the legal implications of Allison's involvement in business dealings and transactions.


It would be interesting to find out if there will be other interested parties mentioned, for instance TM and NGB, and if the gentlemen's agreements for some of the massive loans provided to GBC are viewed by the court as part of the considerations, or part of possible claims against the estate.

 

[chekoutchik]

Just catching up on the day, thanks Alioop for that informative post. Just had a thought - how quickly would Super pay out? Please tell me that's not in the bail/defense pot?
Nothing would surprise me from that family. I wish Mr Dickie every success in obtaining control of what is rightfully the children's - although I guess that will also carry the burden of GBC's debts too.

I know from our own company that it can be set up to protect family so that in the event of something going wrong e.g. the company being sued, the family is protected. The company structure may well have been set up this way to protect the family (including Gerard) in the event things went 'belly-up'. If so, then Allison's personal assets may be protected. Perhaps Alioop can comment on this?

 

[chekoutchik]

I find it interesting that the application is made at this particular time (ie before the forensic accountant's report has been handed over by the prosecution to the defence team).

In my view this could mean one of two things. Either the Dickies have this information and it is a tactical move to try and make the claim on behalf of the girls as relevant claimants to the estate. Or there is a concern that it may be unclear if in fact some of the debts and loans taken out by GBC could in fact still be regarded as debts and loans against the estate depending on the nature of the financial involvement of Allison in the business and the Dickies want to ensure that the money is only used for Allison's component of the debts not for the totality of the debt.


Either way, it could be a double edged sword, and would depend very heavily on the legal implications of Allison's involvement in business dealings and transactions.


It would be interesting to find out if there will be other interested parties mentioned, for instance TM and NGB, and if the gentlemen's agreements for some of the massive loans provided to GBC are viewed by the court as part of the considerations, or part of possible claims against the estate.

Isn't the intention of the Dickies at this point in time to pay out debts and protect the assets for the time being until such a time as probate is finally granted most likely after the proceedings against GBC have concluded? To me it seems prudent to appoint someone responsible such as Mr Dickie to administer the funds to debtors and protect the balance. If, by chance, the assets [cash] were misappropriated say used for the criminal proceedings currently in play then it would be mighty difficult to get that money back even if the court ordered same. Once it's spent, it's spent and there's buckleys anyone can do anything about it.

I'm also thinking that perhaps the Dickies have been approached by debtors already, e.g. children's ballet instructors wanting payment for term fees, etc and Mr Dickie is trying to do the right thing by everyone. Wages still need to be paid regardless of how charitable people wish to be in this situation.

 

[Mountain Misst]

Right up your alley, eh Alioop... Thanks a mill.

:whistle:

 

[Lu-Lu]

This one little snippet has piqued my curiosity.

Does this mean QPS believes (and have evidence) that the murder was pre-meditated?

Sure would take away from "heat of the moment" possible defense if so.

Are there different degrees of murder charges in Australia, like there are in the US? (Murder 1, Murder 2) With different penalties assessed?

We have Murder, and Manslaughter. Murder meaning it's premeditated, and carries a mandantory life sentence, which ususally means no possible parole for at least 15 years, I believe. http://www.pottslawyers.com.au/web/page/qld_murder This link states the it's a mandatory life sentence for manslaughter also, but when the defendant can apply for parole is determined by the judge and is usually nowhere near 15 years.

Manslaughter, which could mean heat of the moment. Sentencing is then determined by the judge. http://www.pottslawyers.com.au/web/page/qld_manslaughter


A defendant may be charged with murder, and sit a murder trial, plead innocent to murder, but plead guilty to manslaughter under the defense of provaction. It's then up to the jury to decide from the evidence heard whether or not the defendant is guilty of murder. And if they find them not guilty, they must find them guilty of manslaughter.

HTH.