Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #41

[Mountain Misst]

Whilst researching the time frame for events I came across that news report where he said he had been told to stay away from the command post.
(All I need to do now is find it again! It was in a written news report not a video)

Also it has come to my attention that another time frame much longer may be of some benefit, but it will take much longer to put it together And it would be very lengthy.
I was surprised just how much I had missed in reports until I started this exercise.
Not sure why but I can't seem to edit my posts. (Still not sure how websleuths works)

For instance, it pays to check as many as possible news reports.
I came across one today that should have been included.

April 30, 2012 (The day of discovery) Mrs Baden-Clay's body was found by a canoeist at Kholo Creek.

Police allege Mr Baden-Clay contacted his financial advisor who made a "further query" with one of the life insurance providers.

May 1, 2012 One of the life insurers was advised "of a pending claim on that policy" by Mr Baden-Clay's financial advisor. Mrs Baden-Clay's body was yet to be formally identified.

Police allege Mr Baden Clay "urgently sought a death certificate for the deceased".

May 21, 2012 A death certificate for Mrs Baden-Clay was issued. Police allege Mr Baden-Clay lodged claims with each of Mrs Baden-Clay's policies and "further asked that these claims be expedited".

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...d-badenclay-20120626-210bz.html#ixzz2Hw6Ixs9D

If I, or someone does another timeline of events, it might be better to start with with asking Bruce Flegg for money December 2011 (Baden-Clay said he needed $400,000 to pay out business partners.) He tried again in March 2012
Flegg didn't play ball.
Then on the night of the murder at 10.53 pm Sue Heath said in a police statement she was talking to Dr Flegg on the phone at about 10.53pm when he heard the first scream. "When he went to check it out at the front of his house he heard a second scream," reads the statement, lodged in court for Baden-Clay's bail application this week.

Dr Flegg's home sits high on a hill about 1km from the house where Gerard and Allison Baden-Clay lived at Brookfield.

There is a LOT of things that seemed to have gone under the radar.

The end of the time line should probably end now, as so much seems to have happened from the arrest and new office at AGCG.
For instance the sale of the jointly owned house. The ASIC changes.
The new improved version of the suicide theory. (No comment from here)
Seemed to be entire thrust of new bid for bail. "Proven" in fact by all the Zoloft boxes left lying around. And the diary entries. (Again, no comment from me.)

All I am saying is a new improved time frame of events might help.
Plus I eyeballed that report possumheart is after in the wee small hours of only last night!

This link might save you a little time Ladybird:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171094&highlight=timeline+Allison+Baden-Clay

 

[Couldbe]

I think whoever placed the Zoloft did so out of ignorance hoping to create questions about her mental state.

...... maybe Police could detect more recent fingerprints on the boxes.

 

[DrWatson]

I wonder if the Zoloft packets were kept. And kept intact with the name of the person for whom intended on the packet together with the dispensing chemist. Apologies if this has been previously discussed.
Agree with you fully Zim They would have likened Zoloft to Valium. (Should have googled that first.......)

It's actually quite difficult to commit suicide with Valium, too. You'd need to take a bucketload of them, and be fairly well hidden where nobody would find you snoring loudly. Yes, it's possible, especially if you already have some respiratory problems, but I've seen many attempted suicides using Valium, and they just end up in hospital to sleep it off, sometimes on a ventilator if their respiration is suppressed too much. The elderly and those with certain other medical conditions (like myasthenia gravis) are more susceptible. But of course, Allison had no predisposing respiratory problems as far as we know.

And these days, they can be given a drug that will reverse the effects of the diazepam, called "Anexate". It's not suitable for use in everyone, and it certainly isn't carried by paramedics, like naloxone is (for narcotic overdoses). But in hospital, Anexate will reverse the effects of overdoage with benzodiazepines.

So basically both Zoloft and Valium are considerably safer than the previous generations of antidepressants and sedatives.

I would be wondering why the Zoloft packets were in the car in the first place - most people would have them in the bathroom or bedroom. And overdosing on anything in the car doesn't make sense, especially given that she didn't then drive herself to Kholo Creek...

Then we have all that information I managed to dig up on Zoloft, and its supposedly toxic levels, posted a couple of threads ago.

Bottom line is that the suicide theory just doesn't fly....

 

[Liadan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsessor [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8716444#post8716444"][/ame]
and again...lol....sorry, thinking as I write....

s,. if the 2 assistants arrived before he went out driving around, which I'd presume they would have, they must have arrived by "about" 7??? so the call to them must have gone out at "about" 6.30??? to allow them time to jump up, throw on some clothes and head across in the car???

It still seems VERY early for such enormous panic and calling for back-up.
Allison wasn't VERY late at that stage.

It is very hard to believe this family does not know what happened to Allison, or at least have suspicions.

BBM.

BBM.

According to court documents, this is exactly what happened. :twocents:

And just a few well worded questions would give us the answers we need.

So 6:15 am GBC is awake (after sleeping in the bedroom) and reaches for his mobile phone 6:18 by 7:15 that morning he had called the police.

At some time around 6:30 GBC had told OW of Allisons walking route (Bail doco) If only we knew if this was in person or over the home phone as it doesn't appear in the details of his MOB or even if NBC was the there and in control of the situation.) I wonder if there were skype calls from the home computer as well????

There is also mention of GBC's interaction with Elaine Baden-Clay in the facetime doco that suggests their conversations started around 6:30am as well. But the details are not forthcoming.

 

[redlightthroughpaper]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsessor http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8716444#post8716444
and again...lol....sorry, thinking as I write....

s,. if the 2 assistants arrived before he went out driving around, which I'd presume they would have, they must have arrived by "about" 7??? so the call to them must have gone out at "about" 6.30??? to allow them time to jump up, throw on some clothes and head across in the car???

It still seems VERY early for such enormous panic and calling for back-up.
Allison wasn't VERY late at that stage.

It is very hard to believe this family does not know what happened to Allison, or at least have suspicions.

BBM.




And just a few well worded questions would give us the answers we need.

So 6:15 am GBC is awake (after sleeping in the bedroom) and reaches for his mobile phone 6:18 by 7:15 that morning he had called the police.

At some time around 6:30 GBC had told OW of Allisons walking route (Bail doco) If only we knew if this was in person or over the home phone as it doesn't appear in the details of his MOB or even if NBC was the there and in control of the situation.) I wonder if there were skype calls from the home computer as well????

There is also mention of GBC's interaction with Elaine Baden-Clay in the facetime doco that suggests their conversations started around 6:30am as well. But the details are not forthcoming.

I wonder if the call log for the landline was presented at the last bail hearing? Alioop, did you happen to notice when you were in court that day?

 

[Liadan]

I think whoever placed the Zoloft did so out of ignorance hoping to create questions about her mental state.
I have been on anti-depressants for years (many of those in secret due to the shame....yes really !)
Many do not understand how they work and why they are needed. This is a shame. I doubt that 'THIS' family understood and probably likened it to valium or some other tranquiliser.....
You can (I think) overdose on valium but as far as I know you cannot OD on Zoloft.
LOL, and a little irreverant (sorreeee) from all that I have read I reckon she REALLY needed that Zoloft !

Yeah same here - if you ask me - I reckon GBC was doing some research for his alibi when he was googling that 'Psychiatrist in the western suburbs'. He could ask all sorts of questions of the specialist on the basis that Allison was feeling suicidal given the amount of stress she was under and the home situation. And of course the big question - how easy is it to commit suicide from Zoloft...... what quantities of tablets.

What if and this is a big what if so please excuse - before Allison was in the car on the way to Kholo he had plied her with the so called 'toxic' levels of antidepressants. We do have her deceased at the house so lets assume after she got her head injury, he knocked her out he somehow managed to crush the tablets and put them into her mouth - (perhaps she had locked her jaw and this is how her tooth was chipped?). I refuse to believe that Allison voluntarily even in her darkest hour would have taken masses of Zoloft.

I would doubt GBC was taking Zoloft as it can reduce libido- (would he take this chance?)altho there is the possibility that given the extent extracurricula activities he was practicing it may not have affected him that way!

 

[DrWatson]

If you check back to that series of posts from me about Zoloft (sertraline), the fact that they had to determine the levels in the liver rather than from the general circulation, and the principles of redistribution post-mortem, then you'll see that there most likely was NO elevation to toxic levels. A very high level in the liver is NORMAL when taking a regular dose. And one of the papers I found and quoted showed that you can't extrapolate backwards the levels found at autopsy to any meaningful levels PRE-mortem - toxic or otherwise - anyway.

I think the whole thing about "toxic levels of "Zoloft"" is a furphy.

Marly-Wiz, the Queen of Searching through past threads, will no doubt be able to find the relevant posts. It was only 3-4 weeks ago I seem to recall

 

[alioop]

I wonder if the call log for the landline was presented at the last bail hearing? Alioop, did you happen to notice when you were in court that day?

Hi red, no mention of the landline phone in court at the bail hearing. I would think that there were not any calls from the landline between say 10pm and 6 am as otherwise this would have been mentioned in the first bail hearing. Only the FaceTime call was mentioned in the first bail hearing as significant evidence that there was activity by GBC at a time when he claimed to be asleep.

 

[marlywings]

If you check back to that series of posts from me about Zoloft (sertraline), the fact that they had to determine the levels in the liver rather than from the general circulation, and the principles of redistribution post-mortem, then you'll see that there most likely was NO elevation to toxic levels. A very high level in the liver is NORMAL when taking a regular dose. And one of the papers I found and quoted showed that you can't extrapolate backwards the levels found at autopsy to any meaningful levels PRE-mortem - toxic or otherwise - anyway.

I think the whole thing about "toxic levels of "Zoloft"" is a furphy.

Marly-Wiz, the Queen of Searching through past threads, will no doubt be able to find the relevant posts. It was only 3-4 weeks ago I seem to recall

Multiple posts from Doc on the topic of Zoloft...

From around post #1163 onwards in the following thread...

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8638582#post8638582"]Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #39 - Page 47 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


And also from post #535 onwards in this thread...

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193392&page=22

 

[KG1]

If you check back to that series of posts from me about Zoloft (sertraline), the fact that they had to determine the levels in the liver rather than from the general circulation, and the principles of redistribution post-mortem, then you'll see that there most likely was NO elevation to toxic levels. A very high level in the liver is NORMAL when taking a regular dose. And one of the papers I found and quoted showed that you can't extrapolate backwards the levels found at autopsy to any meaningful levels PRE-mortem - toxic or otherwise - anyway.

I think the whole thing about "toxic levels of "Zoloft"" is a furphy.

Marly-Wiz, the Queen of Searching through past threads, will no doubt be able to find the relevant posts. It was only 3-4 weeks ago I seem to recall

I recall those posts Doc and I would wholheartedly agree that the "toxicity" bleating in relation to Zoloft, was only a desperate ploy - after all, the defence seem to have little else.
Further, in relation to the discarded Zoloft packets, both in the carport and the car, maybe they were deliberately retrieved from garbage and planted where they were found. Of course, we don't know how many were found. If it was only a couple in both places, that may only be untidiness, but if it was quantities, sounds very odd to me. Perhaps there is pre meditation here to support a suicide theory. Would be enlightening to know the dates and batches on packets. They could have been unopened packets, which were emptied of tablets. MOO

 

[DrWatson]

Multiple posts from Doc on the topic of Zoloft...

From around post #1163 onwards in the following thread...

Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #39 - Page 47 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


And also from post #535 onwards in this thread...

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193392&page=22

Thanks Marly - you're the present that keeps on giving Ask - and it shall be located!

 

[Obsessor]

Just a general question about the availability of court documents, are you there alioop?
You have probably already explained this somewhere, but I was just looking at the court document/summary posted by mountainmist in the media/timeline section, and wondering what all the affidavits might be.Do we know what they all were? Is is likely that they are all just offers to put up bail money(except for the solicitors and police prosecutors of course)? Are we able to read all of these? I am confused about what has become available, as sometimes people quote things that were made available at the bail applications and I dont remember reading them?

What I'm asking is, is there somewhere I can look to read for myself all the documents that were tendered in court?

Sorry if you have gone over this. Thanks.

 

[LadyBird1]

I recall those posts Doc and I would wholheartedly agree that the "toxicity" bleating in relation to Zoloft, was only a desperate ploy - after all, the defence seem to have little else.
Further, in relation to the discarded Zoloft packets, both in the carport and the car, maybe they were deliberately retrieved from garbage and planted where they were found. Of course, we don't know how many were found. If it was only a couple in both places, that may only be untidiness, but if it was quantities, sounds very odd to me. Perhaps there is pre meditation here to support a suicide theory. Would be enlightening to know the dates and batches on packets. They could have been unopened packets, which were emptied of tablets. MOO

There is one good side to all this;
The second bail hearing was based on ... some new evidence...:what:
Suicide from Zoloft. (And we have learned here that that suicide by Zoloft just won't cut it. A furphy. Thank-you Dr Watson.)
That is ALL they've got? THAT is what this case is hanging onto?

 

[Obsessor]

I have one more question. If the affidavits from individuals were pledges of money for bail, why are they done like that, ie O Walton, then next line I Walton for example. If you are a couple, why doesnt it say, O & I Walton, OR just have the total as coming from one eg I Walton, and their total amount pledged.

Thats what is making me wonder if they are like character references or even evidence sheets and not just offers of bail money??

 

[redlightthroughpaper]

Hi red, no mention of the landline phone in court at the bail hearing. I would think that there were not any calls from the landline between say 10pm and 6 am as otherwise this would have been mentioned in the first bail hearing. Only the FaceTime call was mentioned in the first bail hearing as significant evidence that there was activity by GBC at a time when he claimed to be asleep.

Thanks Alioop. I was wondering because of the discussion earlier regarding OW and NBC being at the house so early on the morning of 20th. It was mentioned at the first bail hearing that NBC had provided a brief statement in relation to the contact he had with GBC after 6.30am on 20th. There seems to be no record of GBC calling him from his mobile before 6.41am that morning (apart from the 12.30am FaceTime call), so I thought perhaps he had used the landline. (He may have just called NBC from his mobile after 6.41am too though). I was hoping that we may have been able to glean some more information from those landline records if they had been produced in court. But unfortunately, it seems not. It is frustrating having so little information! All IMO.

 

[Couldbe]

There is one good side to all this;
The second bail hearing was based on ... some new evidence...:what:
Suicide from Zoloft. (And we have learned here that that suicide by Zoloft just won't cut it. A furphy. Thank-you Dr Watson.)
That is ALL they've got? THAT is what this case is hanging onto?

The Committal Hearing in March ...... does anyone think that fresh evidence will be required ... to actually link GBC to Allison's murder?
...... or would this be likely to rely on strong motives and inconsistencies in his 'statements' about Allison's disappearance from their home.

If some evidence to show that both the Captiva and the Prado were seen between 10 pm and 4 am on the 19/20th April (maybe at the Kenmore Roundabout and/or at Anstead), it would pose the question of who the drivers were.

 

[redlightthroughpaper]

There is one good side to all this;
The second bail hearing was based on ... some new evidence...:what:
Suicide from Zoloft. (And we have learned here that that suicide by Zoloft just won't cut it. A furphy. Thank-you Dr Watson.)
That is ALL they've got? THAT is what this case is hanging onto?

Perhaps the toxicology report was just used as the ‘new evidence’ to get another bail hearing? Simply proposing a suicide theory wouldn’t be ‘new evidence’, but the toxicology report itself was.
If it goes to trial, the defence might try to introduce a suicide theory that may not be dependent on an actual overdose of Zoloft. IMO.

 

[ozazure]

I don't read too much into the empty boxes being about. Was this brought up by the defence as part of their grasping at straws? That's their job. They would have found that in the evidence and used it like they used the drug results from whichever organ. I doubt GBC strew them about, he wasn't that on it. One in the car seems reasonable to me, the carport one might have been in the recycling.

 

[LadyBird1]

I don't read too much into the empty boxes being about. Was this brought up by the defence as part of their grasping at straws? That's their job. They would have found that in the evidence and used it like they used the drug results from whichever organ. I doubt GBC strew them about, he wasn't that on it. One in the car seems reasonable to me, the carport one might have been in the recycling.

Grasping at straws.

Couldn't think of a better way to put it.

Husband having affair = Depraved mental state = Depression = Psychiatrist = Zoloft = Suicide = Death = Money.

 

[Groundedgirl]

I think whoever placed the Zoloft did so out of ignorance hoping to create questions about her mental state.

...... maybe Police could detect more recent fingerprints on the boxes.

I am on a strong dose of Zoloft for anxiety. Apparently, stronger than what is required for treating depression my doctor tells me. But it is only a tablet a day and one small box a month. Where do boxes and boxes come from?

Also, just to let you know, I am never spaced out either. I think too much focus is on the Zoloft, probably as a diversion.