Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #42

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In the midst of all our enthusiasm to find the truth in this terrible situation we need to remember that the police don't always get it right!
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/policeman-admits-aboriginal-man-accused-of-assault-did-not-throw-punch/story-e6frg6nf-1226582776462

Something in the back of my head keeps saying that maybe we and (maybe the police) are missing something major in our collective efforts to solve the "minor" matters. I say this with full respect to QPS.
And surely the police would be totally professional and know a lot of things.
But then again, the Azaria Chamberlain story went from a simple matter to an unrecognizable matter totally bizarre. More like something that would sell stories and make ratings and maybe even make a good TV story. That was before Internet and sleuthing sites such as this, where members of the general public can have a say.
Maybe in this matter, it's a bit like "you can't see the forest for the trees."
What has prompted this uncomfortable line of thinking, is partly Obsessor, who wants to keep looking at stuff that we have definitely got.
Example; We see a face with great gouge marks. Yes it might have been a wild animal. Or he might have slipped over and fallen in the bathroom. But the end result is shocking. And coincidentally it appears to have happened the very night the wife went missing. Need to check it out further maybe.
We also appear to have a unashamed liar, so in that knowledge we should take all that person's words with a grain of salt. Expect lies.
We have a deceased person under a bridge, that's a definite. And for the first time everyone seems to accept how she possibly came to be there. Good one Doc.
We have reports of phone calls to Insurance before the body was identified.
What I am saying is this: We do have some definite facts. Actually there are quite a few definite facts or clues.
Somehow we need to be able to see the forest. Some big trees, or possibly a big tangle of bushes that is preventing us from seeing clearly.
I don't have the answers by the way, but keep thinking that sometimes the simplest things might be the correct things.
PS The Chamberlain matter was a terrible eye opener for me. It grew out of all proportion, and IMO quite unnecessarily.
 
I agree ladybird and I think we are now looking at the details in a way that we didn't and couldn't previously thanks to more info from the second bail hearing and seeing how things fit together. Simple explanations are often the right ones.
 
Does anybody have information regarding GBC's visitors? Have family members visited him regularly or have they kept a distance now that some time has gone by? Has any local spotted the girls with Nigelain at the local shops? Just curious.

Know nothing about the visitors but the girls are still at they old school so my granddaughter told me recently
 
We have a deceased person under a bridge, that's a definite. And for the first time everyone seems to accept how she possibly came to be there.

:dunno: I am still losing sleep over that one. And have been over and under the bridge many times in person, up Little Ugly Creek, all around. Can't say I accept any one theory yet, sorry.
 
Hi Saxons, nice to see you back.

Yes the murder charge states the location of the alleged murder at their Brookfield address so the police must believe she was dead when transported to Kholo Creek.

I think if they don't believe they know the place of death they just say, place unknown in the charge sheet but Allison's death certificate which I have seen, says

Place of Death - Found deceased at Kholo Creek Crossing, Anstead.
Date of Death - Between 19 April 2012 and 30 April 2012

This is because the murder charge place and date of death are allegations by police, not known facts and are unable to be determined at this stage. Though the state of her body was consistent with her being deceased for about the time she was missing.
yes Ali and there is also the charge of interfering with a corpse which we dont see mentioned much
 
Racing past my computer, but I think if there had have been any other injuries, he would have been asked to justify them as well- or give an account of...

As we haven't heard of any, its my guess it was all upper body injuries he suffered.

Maybe they asked TM about that . oops sorry couldnt help myself
 
Also a big welcome back to our older members...great to see you've joined us again!!. :)
 
I wonder if the police made GBC take off more than his shirt to examine him for marks and injuries. I have not seen or heard anything other than they looked at his face and torso. He could have had scratches on his legs for example.

Might need a lady police person to get his cooperation for that one :winkaway:
 
What IF...and this is a very far-fetched and mighty big IF....
GBC maintains it was an accidental and unintended death...
Admits there was a verbal row...We know from Allison's diary entries he belittled and taunted her.
"New hairdo? As if that's going to make any difference!"
He won't admit that, of course. He'll just say there was a row because she was depressed and unreasonably insecure about seeing TM the following day, even though he was doing his 'best to work through things with Allison'
So Allison went ballistic and ran out of the house.
He tried to quiet her, 'bring her to her senses, reason with her, she wouldn't listen.
GBC grabbed her, she fought him off (hence the gouges), and fell over in the bushes. Knocked unconscious, so he thought.
Panicked, didn't know what to do, wasn't thinking clearly. Bundled her into the back of the car as it was easier than trying to put her into the passenger seat.
Initially thought he'd take her to the hospital, then realised she wasn't breathing.
Can't take her home. What to do?? Panic stations.
Facetimed NBC who goes to the bus shelter. Not to help with the disposal, but to be there for GBC to sort him out afterwards.
GBC's main thought at this stage, so he says, is made under extreme duress: cannot go to the hospital, cannot take Allison home to her daughters.
Driving erratically around, crosses the bridge, decides in a moment of terror to dispose of his wife right there. Doesn't think it through.
Picks up NBC, gabbles his story, NBC tells him to 'act normally and it will be alright.' The BC name remaining untarnished is NBC's main goal.
GBC says the TV interview was strained and awkward only because no one knew of the affair with TM and he didn't want it to come out. Sorry Marly, I don't know where the link is, but I do remember the documents of the bail hearing indicating GBC had specifically asked the attending officers at the time to be circumspect as no one in his family knew of the affair. He could easily explain away his subsequent actions this way.
The car crash on the way to the police station was purely caused by stress and lack of concentration.
Can someone please just pick as many holes as possible in this? I am just so upset even thinking about the possibility of it being found to be accidental and unintentional!
 
Hi lycheefarmer & welcome to Websleuths. Going by your post & that report, are you of the opinion that something may have been overlooked in Allison's case??

Thanks for asking marlywings! Only that some times on this site and others like it there seems to be a lot of naive faith in the police that IMO is sometimes misplaced. E.g. the police seemed to get the alleged Facetime call spectacularly wrong (it seemed to disappear in the second bail hearing) and it seems very convenient that they "found it" just before the first bail hearing. I'm a bit of a nitpicker and a contrarian and that just got me thinking...that's all. I wonder if there are any other "mistakes"?
 
What IF...and this is a very far-fetched and mighty big IF....
GBC maintains it was an accidental and unintended death...
Admits there was a verbal row...We know from Allison's diary entries he belittled and taunted her.
"New hairdo? As if that's going to make any difference!"
He won't admit that, of course. He'll just say there was a row because she was depressed and unreasonably insecure about seeing TM the following day, even though he was doing his 'best to work through things with Allison'
So Allison went ballistic and ran out of the house.
He tried to quiet her, 'bring her to her senses, reason with her, she wouldn't listen.
GBC grabbed her, she fought him off (hence the gouges), and fell over in the bushes. Knocked unconscious, so he thought.
Panicked, didn't know what to do, wasn't thinking clearly. Bundled her into the back of the car as it was easier than trying to put her into the passenger seat.
Initially thought he'd take her to the hospital, then realised she wasn't breathing.
Can't take her home. What to do?? Panic stations.
Facetimed NBC who goes to the bus shelter. Not to help with the disposal, but to be there for GBC to sort him out afterwards.
GBC's main thought at this stage, so he says, is made under extreme duress: cannot go to the hospital, cannot take Allison home to her daughters.
Driving erratically around, crosses the bridge, decides in a moment of terror to dispose of his wife right there. Doesn't think it through.
Picks up NBC, gabbles his story, NBC tells him to 'act normally and it will be alright.' The BC name remaining untarnished is NBC's main goal.
GBC says the TV interview was strained and awkward only because no one knew of the affair with TM and he didn't want it to come out. Sorry Marly, I don't know where the link is, but I do remember the documents of the bail hearing indicating GBC had specifically asked the attending officers at the time to be circumspect as no one in his family knew of the affair. He could easily explain away his subsequent actions this way. The car crash on the way to the police station was purely caused by stress and lack of concentration.
Can someone please just pick as many holes as possible in this? I am just so upset even thinking about the possibility of it being found to be accidental and unintentional!

From Constable Ash...

December 15, 2012

"I then asked Gerard if everything was OK between him and Allison? Gerard then said 'Look there is something I should tell you'. He then explained . . . he had recently admitted to having an affair with another female. Gerard said 'because I have had an affair things aren't great between Allison and I . . . she no longer trusts me'."

Baden-Clay asked for the information to be kept confidential "stating that his father and sister did not know" about the affair.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...baden-clays-face/story-e6freoof-1226537344568
 
Thanks for asking marlywings! Only that some times on this site and others like it there seems to be a lot of naive faith in the police that IMO is sometimes misplaced. E.g. the police seemed to get the alleged Facetime call spectacularly wrong (it seemed to disappear in the second bail hearing) and it seems very convenient that they "found it" just before the first bail hearing. I'm a bit of a nitpicker and a contrarian and that just got me thinking...that's all. I wonder if there are any other "mistakes"?

Thanks lycheefarmer...sure there are times when police have been wrong & have made mistakes...they're human just like the rest of us. However, with Allison's case, I'm of the opinion that, with Inspector Ainsworth at the head of it, he made darn sure every i was dotted & every t was crossed before he went in for an arrest. A cop doesn't make it to receiving such distinction as he has by sitting on his fingers & not doing his job correctly. I have every faith in Inspector Ainsworth & that he has put his man where he belongs.

As for the facetime call...as far as we're aware there was still a call made, as per the original MSM reports from the first bail hearing....it just wasn't mentioned at the second bail hearing.
 
Doc, I should be asleep, but I'm now thinking more and more about these scratches. (Obsessor is at it again!!!)

I'm puzzled by the angle of the scratches- vertical. Parallel and vertical.

IF, and I know its only IF, these were caused by Allison in a struggle, it seems to me that they had to be caused by a downwards, ripping type action. I mean, if GBC was say kneeling over her on th bed, with a pillow over her face, the scratches would be more likely to go from back to front (of the face) wouldnt they? You would pull, as you scratched wouldn't you?
When I think about most face to face type situations, I can really only inagine the scratches being inflicted in a horizontal of diagonal direction.???

The dragging motion seems to be down, in this instant, which looks to me that Allison was reaching up towards his face, arms extended almost. Would this fit???

I started wondering what on earth could be a situation in which she was vertically below his head, and one scenario, that I hate to think about is, if she had the back of her head to his belly. Fitting with this, could we imagine Allison might have been sitting on the lounge watching the footy show, when GBC approached her from behind, and wrapped a rope around her neck and strangled her from behind?
I see a desperate gouge at "that" angle and of that ferocity resulting from this. The height would be about right too. He could have been holding incredibly tightly, and looking in the forward direction.

Not to do with the scratches, but, It would have been fairly silent. There would be next to no mess or no evidence. There would be ligature marks but these would have been destroyed by the decomposition.


If she was the other way around, ie. facing him during the event, (horrid to even think of this I know), and she was reaching up towards his head, like if she was collapsing to her knees or something, chances are he would have been looking down towards her, and again the scratches wouldn't be vertical. ???

Am I just overthinking this??? Does this make sense?

I am gosmacked ! You have the ability to see what others here have not. Keep it up. Well done :rocker:
 
Thanks for asking marlywings! Only that some times on this site and others like it there seems to be a lot of naive faith in the police that IMO is sometimes misplaced. E.g. the police seemed to get the alleged Facetime call spectacularly wrong (it seemed to disappear in the second bail hearing) and it seems very convenient that they "found it" just before the first bail hearing. I'm a bit of a nitpicker and a contrarian and that just got me thinking...that's all. I wonder if there are any other "mistakes"?


Interesting LF. Everyone makes mistakes and I don't think we can condemn the police for their apparent inattention to detail. Their reaction is based and tempered on historical statistical evidence. The attending officer to this crime saw the need to elevate the situation to his superiors. All could have been lost at this very integral stage - we have the POLICE to be grateful towards for protocol demanding that they investigate further.

Sure things down that track may not have panned out and mistakes were made but I believe they are using every lawfully means available to them to bring the perpetrator to justice. The police are not above the law either - and unfortunately even perpetrators have rights.
 
What IF...and this is a very far-fetched and mighty big IF....
GBC maintains it was an accidental and unintended death...
Admits there was a verbal row...We know from Allison's diary entries he belittled and taunted her.
"New hairdo? As if that's going to make any difference!"
He won't admit that, of course. He'll just say there was a row because she was depressed and unreasonably insecure about seeing TM the following day, even though he was doing his 'best to work through things with Allison'
So Allison went ballistic and ran out of the house.
He tried to quiet her, 'bring her to her senses, reason with her, she wouldn't listen.
GBC grabbed her, she fought him off (hence the gouges), and fell over in the bushes. Knocked unconscious, so he thought.
Panicked, didn't know what to do, wasn't thinking clearly. Bundled her into the back of the car as it was easier than trying to put her into the passenger seat.
Initially thought he'd take her to the hospital, then realised she wasn't breathing.
Can't take her home. What to do?? Panic stations.
Facetimed NBC who goes to the bus shelter. Not to help with the disposal, but to be there for GBC to sort him out afterwards.
GBC's main thought at this stage, so he says, is made under extreme duress: cannot go to the hospital, cannot take Allison home to her daughters.
Driving erratically around, crosses the bridge, decides in a moment of terror to dispose of his wife right there. Doesn't think it through.
Picks up NBC, gabbles his story, NBC tells him to 'act normally and it will be alright.' The BC name remaining untarnished is NBC's main goal.
GBC says the TV interview was strained and awkward only because no one knew of the affair with TM and he didn't want it to come out. Sorry Marly, I don't know where the link is, but I do remember the documents of the bail hearing indicating GBC had specifically asked the attending officers at the time to be circumspect as no one in his family knew of the affair. He could easily explain away his subsequent actions this way.
The car crash on the way to the police station was purely caused by stress and lack of concentration.
Can someone please just pick as many holes as possible in this? I am just so upset even thinking about the possibility of it being found to be accidental and unintentional!

IMO The reason GBC would say the death was accidental and unintended would be thinking the repercussions might be lighter. He has already tried the suicide stunt. What next...bearing in mind what's best for GBC.
Regarding the "covert" affair, there are certain "men" who take great pride in such things. They regard it as a status symbol. (Heh heh, just between men, if you know what I mean. Bet he never slyly spoke of same to a female officer.)
The car crash IMO was another diversion tactic to avoid questioning. He was buying time. Any time with which he could distance himself from the initial matter would be beneficial.
Time to go to church and look like a normal God fearing person. Bought nearly a day there.
Time to avoid being intensely grilled at first instance.
Time to grow a beard.
Time to throw in some diversions, example the staged car crash.
Time generally clouds the details of important issues.
Howzatt for a few holes?
Sorry and all. But you did invite scrutiny!
IMO Everything got completely out of hand, when the one affair exposed two or three more, then these new fangled Internet sleuthing sites indicated the public wasn't buying the simple wife died story. Odd that, 'cos the media seemed to be eating out of the hand. Well on the surface anyway. The QPS? Dunno what went wrong there. Colonial state and all.
 
What IF...and this is a very far-fetched and mighty big IF....
GBC maintains it was an accidental and unintended death...
Admits there was a verbal row...We know from Allison's diary entries he belittled and taunted her.
"New hairdo? As if that's going to make any difference!"
He won't admit that, of course. He'll just say there was a row because she was depressed and unreasonably insecure about seeing TM the following day, even though he was doing his 'best to work through things with Allison'
So Allison went ballistic and ran out of the house.
He tried to quiet her, 'bring her to her senses, reason with her, she wouldn't listen.
GBC grabbed her, she fought him off (hence the gouges), and fell over in the bushes. Knocked unconscious, so he thought.
Panicked, didn't know what to do, wasn't thinking clearly. Bundled her into the back of the car as it was easier than trying to put her into the passenger seat.
Initially thought he'd take her to the hospital, then realised she wasn't breathing.
Can't take her home. What to do?? Panic stations.
Facetimed NBC who goes to the bus shelter. Not to help with the disposal, but to be there for GBC to sort him out afterwards.
GBC's main thought at this stage, so he says, is made under extreme duress: cannot go to the hospital, cannot take Allison home to her daughters.
Driving erratically around, crosses the bridge, decides in a moment of terror to dispose of his wife right there. Doesn't think it through.
Picks up NBC, gabbles his story, NBC tells him to 'act normally and it will be alright.' The BC name remaining untarnished is NBC's main goal.
GBC says the TV interview was strained and awkward only because no one knew of the affair with TM and he didn't want it to come out. Sorry Marly, I don't know where the link is, but I do remember the documents of the bail hearing indicating GBC had specifically asked the attending officers at the time to be circumspect as no one in his family knew of the affair. He could easily explain away his subsequent actions this way.
The car crash on the way to the police station was purely caused by stress and lack of concentration.
Can someone please just pick as many holes as possible in this? I am just so upset even thinking about the possibility of it being found to be accidental and unintentional!

An alternative scenerio such as this one is always a possibility. GBC could even argue why he didn't give a formal statement was because he did not want to sign a false legal document. Is there a documented sighting of NBC at the bus stop?
 
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