Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #42

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Thanks Alioops - and please forgive my pedantic question -

So EBC, NBC, OW, IW aka the Clan - can be crossexamined by the prosecution? But because GBC has elected not to testify he is exempt from being put on the stand by the prosecution?

Thanks for your endless patience here Alioops- the law for a layperson is quite foreboding!

All questions are good questions Liadan. The prosecution can subpoena anyone except the accused to give evidence. The defence doesn't call witnesses at a committal but does at a trial. They can subpoena anyone at the trial but they will decide with GBC if he will testify in his own defence. He doesn't have to, that is his right. Only if he does testify can he be cross examined by the prosecution.

GBC will not give evidence at the committal but this is not because he hasn't elected not to, it is because he is not a prosecution witness, he is the accused.
 
Sorry if you took that the wrong way . That is what I was told last night. I just meant u only need something like this and the whole site changes

Sorry Squiz Im a bit lost here. You said the girls were still going to Pullenvale School and this other inside info about NBC I dont wish to repeat, that maybe or maybe not true. Im not sure what I took the wrong way? :waitasec:


Im so confused here atm Im going back to lurking until the 11th. (which is a public holiday for us )
 
Speaking of people going to unusual lengths to get out of presenting themselves next week, I've been wondering for the past week whether GBC is likely to perform a stunt to get out of appearing, or at least delay it for a while longer. ( I know "normal" people would want to just do it and get it out of the way, but he seems to think differently to most people, IMO)

If he was to bung on a faux suicide attempt, or a meltdown at the 11th hour, what would happen?
They wouldn't start without him present would they?
Would they reschedule the whole committal in that case rather than sit around waiting?

I don't think there will be any issues with GBC attending. If there was a delay his lawyers still have to be paid for the days set aside for the committal so not likely I think and nothing to be achieved by putting it off. He can be forced to attend even if he didn't want to go but he probably wants to get on with it. He may think he won't be committed so this is his chance to get out of jail.
 
I don't think there will be any issues with GBC attending. If there was a delay his lawyers still have to be paid for the days set aside for the committal so not likely I think and nothing to be achieved by putting it off. He can be forced to attend even if he didn't want to go but he probably wants to get on with it. He may think he won't be committed so this is his chance to get out of jail.

I dont see GBC as worrying about the money it is costing- its everyone elses money anyhow. He didnt worry about smashing his friends car into a pylon to stage some "poor stressed out me with the lost wife and now the media are hunting me down" stunt.

I agree though, it probably wont happen, but in this case, nothing would surprise me. He may even think that a meltdown might help prove his innocence by showing that he is not coping with being the accused??????
 
Narcissists think differently to the rest of us. (I believe GBC is a narcissist)
I believe a narcissist would be thinking, how can I get out of this, and how can I manipulate everyone around me at the moment to believing they have the wrong guy, and this is all a big waste of time- too hard even?
They dont ever see that they have to follow process like normal people. They see themselves as above normal people and above normal people processes.

He could be thinking that he could have the whole thing called off, due to unforseen circumstances, and be sent home with a public apology for what he has been put through. MOO

I know this is crazy stuff, but for narcissists, the world is different.
 
Narcissists think differently to the rest of us. (I believe GBC is a narcissist)
I believe a narcissist would be thinking, how can I get out of this, and how can I manipulate everyone around me at the moment to believing they have the wrong guy, and this is all a big waste of time- too hard even?
They dont ever see that they have to follow process like normal people. They see themselves as above normal people and above normal people processes.

He could be thinking that he could have the whole thing called off, due to unforseen circumstances, and be sent home with a public apology for what he has been put through. MOO

I know this is crazy stuff, but for narcissists, the world is different.

Couldn't agree more.
 
All questions are good questions Liadan. The prosecution can subpoena anyone except the accused to give evidence. The defence doesn't call witnesses at a committal but does at a trial. They can subpoena anyone at the trial but they will decide with GBC if he will testify in his own defence. He doesn't have to, that is his right. Only if he does testify can he be cross examined by the prosecution.

GBC will not give evidence at the committal but this is not because he hasn't elected not to, it is because he is not a prosecution witness, he is the accused.

Hey Thanks again Alioops! Much appreciated!
 
Do I recall reading Allison suffered from asthma? I've searched but can't find a link but I think I recall this.

If so, could she have had an attack & he didn't help her? Just thinking its hard to kill someone without leaving more marks or injuries.

I wonder how positive GBC is feeling right now, possibly his lawyers are talking everything up big, I imagine that's what they do.
"Ah she'll be right mate, don't worry"
GBC replies "That's what you told me before"
 
Sorry Squiz Im a bit lost here. You said the girls were still going to Pullenvale School and this other inside info about NBC I dont wish to repeat, that maybe or maybe not true. Im not sure what I took the wrong way? :waitasec:


Im so confused here atm Im going back to lurking until the 11th. (which is a public holiday for us )

Amee I look forward to your posts don't go away too far :rocker:
 
Dr Watson, if you dont mind, I've been wondering about the suggested scenarios on here regarding possible causes of Allisons death, and it has been suggested a few times that a blow to the head, rendering her unconscious, as a result of an argument, may have subsequently killed her, without that being GBC's intention.

Do you think a blow to the head that could cause a small subdural haematoma or haemorrhage would be "likely" to cause death if it wasn't bad enough to cause a fracture of the skull in the first place?
ie. What is the chance Allison died of skull trauma without a skull fracture being evident??

Thanks Doc
 
first hand info is the girls are still at pullenvale school.

Know we cant post rumours so I wont .But heard very interesting thing about NBC last night from a local . So will let u guess , if you were being subpeoned to give evidence in yor son's murder trial what would be a dramatic way of avoiding it ????


Dementia?
 
Pullenvale, or Brookfield (where they were going before)?

Become Zimbabwean Consul General and claim diplomatic immunity?

Go into hospital with severe chest pains (probably indigestion from the tales we all have to swallow)?

Emigrate to Iran?

Take the Fifth?..... ;)

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:
 
With serious crimes like murder, are there many eleventh hour plea changes? I was a Crown Witness for an assault/property destruction crime and the accused surprisingly changed his plea at court at the very last minute despite being very vocal of his innocence just prior to going in..obviously the stakes are much higher with cases like these though.
 
Dr Watson, if you dont mind, I've been wondering about the suggested scenarios on here regarding possible causes of Allisons death, and it has been suggested a few times that a blow to the head, rendering her unconscious, as a result of an argument, may have subsequently killed her, without that being GBC's intention.

Do you think a blow to the head that could cause a small subdural haematoma or haemorrhage would be "likely" to cause death if it wasn't bad enough to cause a fracture of the skull in the first place?
ie. What is the chance Allison died of skull trauma without a skull fracture being evident??

Thanks Doc

Obby - I'd love to answer your question, but having just returned from a Time Out for mentioning the contents of a couple of the reports which I have, including the autopsy report, I can't really answer directly.

However, I can answer hypothetically - a finding that MAY have been a subdural haematoma (very small, and certainly not clearly one) would be unlikely to cause death. Some people have chronic subdurals for years, especially those prone to falls, or repeated head blows (eg boxers or drunks).

It is possible that a blow to the head can cause unconsciousness (eg the KO blow in boxing or Mixed Martial Arts) of course, and usually these don't leave any signs or problems apart from concussion afterwards.

If a hypothetical subdural haematoma were to be found, it may have been a more chronic one - older, perhaps related to previous head trauma.

Of more immediate concern would be an EXTRAdural haematoma - outside the dura, and this is usually an arterial bleed, (subdurals are almost always venous bleeding), causing much higher pressures in the haematoma, and hence people can die from these quite quickly. However, I should stress that when the autopsy findings were aired in court at the second bail hearing, these was no mention of an extradural haematoma.

I'm speaking purely hypothetically here, of course, as you asked the question, but in general, a blow to the head can render a person unconscious without there being a subdural haematoma necessarily. Or a skull fracture, unless a weapon is used - it's very hard to fracture a skull with a fist or even a foot - unless the victim falls onto something hard and the fall fractures it. That's the basis of the "One Blow Can Kill" message.
 
Obby - I'd love to answer your question, but having just returned from a Time Out for mentioning the contents of a couple of the reports which I have, including the autopsy report, I can't really answer directly.

However, I can answer hypothetically - a finding that MAY have been a subdural haematoma (very small, and certainly not clearly one) would be unlikely to cause death. Some people have chronic subdurals for years, especially those prone to falls, or repeated head blows (eg boxers or drunks).

It is possible that a blow to the head can cause unconsciousness (eg the KO blow in boxing or Mixed Martial Arts) of course, and usually these don't leave any signs or problems apart from concussion afterwards.

If a hypothetical subdural haematoma were to be found, it may have been a more chronic one - older, perhaps related to previous head trauma.

Of more immediate concern would be an EXTRAdural haematoma - outside the dura, and this is usually an arterial bleed, (subdurals are almost always venous bleeding), causing much higher pressures in the haematoma, and hence people can die from these quite quickly. However, I should stress that when the autopsy findings were aired in court at the second bail hearing, these was no mention of an extradural haematoma.

I'm speaking purely hypothetically here, of course, as you asked the question, but in general, a blow to the head can render a person unconscious without there being a subdural haematoma necessarily. Or a skull fracture, unless a weapon is used - it's very hard to fracture a skull with a fist or even a foot - unless the victim falls onto something hard and the fall fractures it. That's the basis of the "One Blow Can Kill" message.

Doc, thankyou so much, and welcome back from your holiday. ;)

So, with the one blow can kill injuries, is the death usually the result of an extradural haemorrhage? or even less than that?
What is it that kills them then? (sorry for not understanding your explanation)

I actually always thought it was from hitting your head when you fell, causing eggshell type shattering of the base of skull.
Thankyou so much for explaining this.
 
Oh Squiz......good one.
I could totally see NBC doing it.I can't see Olivia doing it.
It will be interesting to see if this one pans out.
Hoping your roundabout info also pans out.
Nice to see you back Squiz.

Is the roundabout info the sighting of NBC there?

Also squizzy do you mean that NBC has already or may try this in future to avoid subpoena?

I hope it's not true. This just seems to get uglier and uglier. Haven't those kids been through enough? :(
 
Doc, thankyou so much, and welcome back from your holiday. ;)

So, with the one blow can kill injuries, is the death usually the result of an extradural haemorrhage? or even less than that?
What is it that kills them then? (sorry for not understanding your explanation)

I actually always thought it was from hitting your head when you fell, causing eggshell type shattering of the base of skull.
Thankyou so much for explaining this.

Those "One Blow Can Kill" cases can involve an extradural bleed (I know of at least one here in Brisbane that occurred down the Valley a couple of years ago) - fractured side of skull on the edge of the pavement, torn artery, etc.

Another one that I'm aware of in Sydney involved a fracture of the base of the skull with disruption of part of the brain stem. And I'm referring here to the true anatomical "base of skull" - not the back, top, or side that can be seen covered by scalp etc. The base is not visible from the outside - it is above and behind the facial skeleton.

But none of those types of events would apply in Allison's case. I think the expression used at the second bail hearing involved the "possibility of a minor subdural haematoma" or words to that effect. It couldn't be ruled out - in other words they couldn't say that it definitely was one... ;)
 
Sorry to butt in but there's something about the missing iphone that still bothers me. Now I'm pretty sure It was reported in the CM that Police and SES volunteers were searching in the 150m 'Hot zone' and that included looking down gutters, drains etc BUT: Did the search include a thorough walk through of the entire drain system from the outfall inwards? (If the local drains are sizeable enough to accommodate this) Being a bit of an Urbex nutter I've been down plenty of drains myself, last time we were exploring some CBD drains a few months back I found both a mobile phone AND a digital camera both within about 150m of each other. Memory cards still intact. And both of them had been down there for quite some time. Both packed full of silt and showing signs of corrosion. This led me to think that they were dropped into a gutter box or similair drain by accident, far up from where the man accessible parts of the drain branch off into much smaller pipes (We call this a 'Shrinker')
So. Assuming the possibility that Allisons phone could have been thrown into such a system and become lodged with all the other debris, there's a good chance it's still down there but slowly making its way toward the outfall as the water keeps trickling. There is always eroded sections in these systems where cracks and pits develop over time also which trap items (Coins galore, for example)
If you were to ask me my first guess as to where would be worth looking at again, It's the drains. Honestly I wouldn't mind having a look myself.
 
Welcome and thanks Breno for those very interesting insights into the world of underground drains. Maybe some locals will know about the searching of drains to the extent you mention. I think plans of drainage systems are available from the council that would show their size and location. I know when we bought our house our searches revealed we had 2 storm water drain pipes each a meter in diameter through the end of our backyard flowing down to the creek at the end of our street. We have a grate where water flows into one of them.

Could it be that the phone wasn't located in the 150 meter radius of the house because it was well underground in a drain pipe, though would it still get a signal from such a location. Good questions.
 
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