Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #46

Welcome to Websleuths!
Click to learn how to make a missing person's thread

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

New Posts

Status
Not open for further replies.
Was so hoping you were around, ali (our legal brain!!).

Any thoughts on how this will go weighing up state law (which would seemingly allow the prosecution/courts to demand access to the counsellor's notes/statement) versus constitutional law (Family Law Act), which seems to say on one hand that what is shared with a family counsellor is not admissible, but on the other hand says state law prevails.

Oh, it's doing my head in all this legal mumbo jumbo :)
 
Thanks Strangeworld. I have no idea how this admissibility question will pan out. its a tough issue.

We may get some more hints next week when the parties are back before the judge to tell him what process they think should be followed to have the court hear the admissibiliy issue. Now that is legal mumbo jumbo! Also don't forget about legal costs adding up on all sides including Relationships Australia Still its a good legal issue to determine.

I would be surprised though if this situation had never arisen before under this legislation. Surely there have been family law disputes where there has been counselling followed by criminal charges arising from one party hurting or killing the other.
 
marlywings said:
An interesting post over in Allison's phone records thread...

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Allison Baden Clay phone records
Click to expand...

I was looking at those unresolved phone numbers (looking for the interesting post)
Unknown numbers including texts
04 3589 8142
04 2428 2608
04 1733 3547
04 2736 1899
04 2498 5185
04 2937 7160
04 2776 7759
04 1964 507 (One Digit missing from this one)
04 0134 8994
04 3970 1108

Thought I would look into these together with Mr Google and re-arranging the spaces
Started at the last 04 3970 1108
HelpingKidsThroughDivorce.com Releases e-Book Focused on ...
www.prlog.org/11902876-helpingkidsthroughdivorcecom-releases-book...‎

(Looks like Allison was focussed on resolving issues using lawful means and measures. Looks like she was seeking out proper help in the face of a problem.)
 
Just a point on the whole confidentiality thing:

It's not that the counselor's records and evidence CAN'T be got at - they can, with a subpoena. That's how the doctors' records and notes would have been obtained. I've had patient records subpoenaed many, many times, and given evidence on those notes. If there is something specific in the notes that you feel is NOT desirable to be made public (eg unrelated directly to the matter in hand) then most prosecutors and defence lawyers, as well as the judges, will cooperate in not bringing those details to light. I've even had cases - one in particular - go to closed sessions while I gave my evidence, due to certain information in a patient record that had nothing specifically to do with the case.

I think - and Ali can correct me if I'm wrong here - that the point of this counselor's notes and evidence is: is the evidence itself admissible? Is it evidence that may make a valid point and/or difference in the case? If it is deemed that it IS admissible, then the court can simply subpoena the records and make the counselor testify.

I don't think the question is whether or not they can do that - I think it's whether or not the evidence that she would give makes it desirable to subpoena her, and in doing so, MAYBE cause some worry to other clients as to the confidentiality of their counseling sessions.

I doubt that the evidence would be in the same category as that of a priest over a confessional. And journalists have refused to submit sources before, even when subpoenaed, and ended up in jail for contempt of court.

I think it's the CONTENT of this counselor's evidence that is the question - is it admissible or not - rather than "should counseling notes be subpoenaed?"
 
LadyBird1 said:
I was looking at those unresolved phone numbers (looking for the interesting post)
Unknown numbers including texts
04 3589 8142
04 2428 2608
04 1733 3547
04 2736 1899
04 2498 5185
04 2937 7160
04 2776 7759
04 1964 507 (One Digit missing from this one)
04 0134 8994
04 3970 1108

Thought I would look into these together with Mr Google and re-arranging the spaces
Started at the last 04 3970 1108
HelpingKidsThroughDivorce.com Releases e-Book Focused on ...
www.prlog.org/11902876-helpingkidsthroughdivorcecom-releases-book...‎

(Looks like Allison was focussed on resolving issues using lawful means and measures. Looks like she was seeking out proper help in the face of a problem.)
Click to expand...


Just a quick note on the phone numbers Ladybird particularly mobiles, looking these up after a period of time is sometimes not such a great idea as the numbers are often recycled and who they belonged to at the time of Allison's murder is not the same person/company a couple of months or a year later.
 
DrWatson said:
Just a point on the whole confidentiality thing:

It's not that the counselor's records and evidence CAN'T be got at - they can, with a subpoena. That's how the doctors' records and notes would have been obtained. I've had patient records subpoenaed many, many times, and given evidence on those notes. If there is something specific in the notes that you feel is NOT desirable to be made public (eg unrelated directly to the matter in hand) then most prosecutors and defence lawyers, as well as the judges, will cooperate in not bringing those details to light. I've even had cases - one in particular - go to closed sessions while I gave my evidence, due to certain information in a patient record that had nothing specifically to do with the case.

I think - and Ali can correct me if I'm wrong here - that the point of this counselor's notes and evidence is: is the evidence itself admissible? Is it evidence that may make a valid point and/or difference in the case? If it is deemed that it IS admissible, then the court can simply subpoena the records and make the counselor testify.

I don't think the question is whether or not they can do that - I think it's whether or not the evidence that she would give makes it desirable to subpoena her, and in doing so, MAYBE cause some worry to other clients as to the confidentiality of their counseling sessions.

I doubt that the evidence would be in the same category as that of a priest over a confessional. And journalists have refused to submit sources before, even when subpoenaed, and ended up in jail for contempt of court.

I think it's the CONTENT of this counselor's evidence that is the question - is it admissible or not - rather than "should counseling notes be subpoenaed?"
Click to expand...

I get what you're saying Doc, but I think it's more than just if it's admissible. The counsellor and Relationships Australia don't want to discuss, at all, what was said in those sessions. Not just because of standard confidentiality, but because the Family Law Act does include a more specific reference to confidentiality - that anything said in front of a FAMILY COUNSELLOR is not admissible. And whether this Act can override our local (state) legislation, which says it can be.

I went to bed last night with head spinning over the legal stuff - thank goodness for ali for explaining some of it - it's just ridiculous in this day and age to have such conflicting pieces of law. I think something really needs to be done so that therapists and clients know exactly where they stand.
 
marlywings said:
Also...I found this "report" from 2011 which I don't recall reading before...

Its only human nature when you’re feeling second best to over compensate and to give an impression to others that everything is awesome and that you’re the best!

http://www.century21.com.au/agentArticleSystem/agents/281/uploadedFiles/StLucia-11Feb.pdf
Click to expand...

Ever get the feeling that the Real Estate lot mentioned here somewhere somehow might have lost their way?
What I mean to say is this, Real Estate is primarily about real estate....... Right?

Regarding blowing your own trumpet....."Let someone else praise you, not your own mouth; a stranger, and never your own lips."
 
Liadan said:
Just a quick note on the phone numbers Ladybird particularly mobiles, looking these up after a period of time is sometimes not such a great idea as the numbers are often recycled and who they belonged to at the time of Allison's murder is not the same person/company a couple of months or a year later.
Click to expand...

I think Ladybird may be onto something there. If someone has an old Brisbane phone book couldn't they check to see if helpingkidsthroughdivorce has a business phone number and if they had that same phone number around the time Allison phoned them or maybe it only has a web page. On reading the link helpingkidsthroughdivorce, I notice they have a date June 18th 2012 (press release ) and at the bottom of the web page they give a contact phone number 0439701108 which is the same number Allison phoned Sat 24th March 2012. It seems they may have had that same phone number for some time ?? Thinking of Allison, her family and friends, hope justice is served soon.
 
With the help of google it seems that the link helpingkidsthroughdivorce is a web site belonging to the lady whose name appears at the bottom of the link. Wendy runs a home base business in Kenmore, and has some very interesting books for sale. On the LinkedIn profile Wendy is a Child Safety Officer with Internet Business to do with DOCS. Maybe anyone who has Marriage problems and concern for their children could benefit greatly by reading some of these books.
 
None of us know why Allison rang Wendy's number on 24th March. Wendy has many books, quiet a few on 'helping the marriage' so it is a possibility Allison was working on helping her marriage and not a divorce. We don't know the answer to that. Both Allison and Wendy have children around the same age as Wendy has mentioned her children on the internet. Seeming that Wendy comes from and area of Brisbane which is familiar to Allison, it is a possibility they were friends or their children were friends and that could be why the phone call took place. ??
 
To the Kevlar Vested Dr Watson. What is the medical profession's view of confidentiality in so much as testifying in court?

As an aside.. Found out lately that your expertise is highly sought and respected.

Edit.. Thanks Dr for your explanation previously. I use an app and I didn't see your post.

But.. Your speciality of medicine is amazingly skilled.
 
My little lad has just started at Joeys (junior scouts) and TBH it makes me think of GBC when I go in there and see the emblems etc.

Random post sorry...
 
Flinders said:
To the Kevlar Vested Dr Watson. What is the medical profession's view of confidentiality in so much as testifying in court?
Click to expand...

Hi Flinders :) In general, most of us don't have a problem with it - but we do insist that records are obtained under a subpoena. It removes any possibility of blame for divulging medical details.

And to be fair, most patients don't have a problem with it either. Most medical evidence is probably extremely boring to non-medicos.

And as I posted above, lawyers generally (most but not all) and judges tend to be cooperative, especially if we say that we'd prefer not to divulge certain parts, as long as they get the bits that they think are relevant. It usually works pretty well, with little or no conflict or controversy. Most of the time... ;)
 
Judicious said:
None of us know why Allison rang Wendy's number on 24th March. Wendy has many books, quiet a few on 'helping the marriage' so it is a possibility Allison was working on helping her marriage and not a divorce. We don't know the answer to that. Both Allison and Wendy have children around the same age as Wendy has mentioned her children on the internet. Seeming that Wendy comes from and area of Brisbane which is familiar to Allison, it is a possibility they were friends or their children were friends and that could be why the phone call took place. ??
Click to expand...

In this case, I think you are correct. This lady just happens to have a business listed on the Internet, that people have googled. In my opinion, her connection to Allison is primarily not related to that business. They are mothers of children at the same school. Please be mindful of peoples' privacy, and the fact that a terrible thing has happened in that school community that so many little people and their families should never have had to cope with. Not taking away, in any shape or form from what Allison's poor daughters & dear parents face daily.
As an aside, I think it is generally a good thing to discuss details of the case, and get experts' opinions. Keep up the thought provoking discussions!
 
For once hoping to be called for jury duty.
 
Nads said:
For once hoping to be called for jury duty.
Click to expand...

Nads, I've been called for jury duty a few times and have been lucky enough to get out of it. However, I would love to be called on this case, the problem I have is when I'm asked if I can be impartial? I think I'd be excused immediately.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

DNASolves

Who is Fairfield County Jane Doe (1993)?

Members online

... and 61 more.
Total: 1,390 (members: 62, guests: 1,328)

Online statistics

Members online
62
Guests online
1,328
Total visitors
1,390
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
605,790
Messages
18,192,254
Members
233,543
Latest member
Dutah82!!
Back
Top