Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #47

[Spotted Reptile]

What I am meaning LadyBird1 is if he pleads at the Trial: as was suggested, 'He might say she fell over and died and he panicked and took her to the bridge.' ..... the admission would then come to light. It would then show that he had just gone to ground while all the searching was going on. By doing that he was concealing everything that he had done.

He even made inquiries about the Insurance Policy before Allison's body was found.

I would give a fortune to see the judge's face if Gerard suggests he dumped his wife in the car and drove 14km to Kholo Bridge and threw her off into the creek because he was panicked! :floorlaugh::

 

[DrWatson]

I would give a fortune to see the judge's face if Gerard suggests he dumped his wife in the car and drove 14km to Kholo Bridge and threw her off into the creek because he was panicked! :floorlaugh::

However, ANY mention of an "accident" or "panic" etc would immediately negate any idea of trying the defence tactic of suicide. Apart from all the facts that preclude suicide, either by overdose or by walking 14Km and jumping into the mud after having your hair done, the suggestion of an accidental death would make any further claims of suicide non-starters.

However, it may have occurred to GBC and his lawyers that suicide as a defence was worth trying on for bail, but that if they pushed that angle too hard, and actually won on that basis, then any life insurance payout would not be made on Allison's life. Unless I'm mistaken (always a possibility), most life insurance policies are rendered null and void if the subject of the policy is found to have committed suicide.

Ali - you know a lot more than I do about these things, and about Allison's life insurance in particular - is my assumption correct? That they may not want to push the suicide thing too hard?

From the point of view purely of getting GBC off the charges, they would presumably be better off to introduce doubt that HE was the perpetrator, but that SOMEBODY did it. And not suicide....

Just some thoughts ....

 

[Couldbe]

However, ANY mention of an "accident" or "panic" etc would immediately negate any idea of trying the defence tactic of suicide. Apart from all the facts that preclude suicide, either by overdose or by walking 14Km and jumping into the mud after having your hair done, the suggestion of an accidental death would make any further claims of suicide non-starters.

However, it may have occurred to GBC and his lawyers that suicide as a defence was worth trying on for bail, but that if they pushed that angle too hard, and actually won on that basis, then any life insurance payout would not be made on Allison's life. Unless I'm mistaken (always a possibility), most life insurance policies are rendered null and void if the subject of the policy is found to have committed suicide.

Ali - you know a lot more than I do about these things, and about Allison's life insurance in particular - is my assumption correct? That they may not want to push the suicide thing too hard?

From the point of view purely of getting GBC off the charges, they would presumably be better off to introduce doubt that HE was the perpetrator, but that SOMEBODY did it. And not suicide....

Just some thoughts ....

Basically what GBC has said:

. Last saw Allison watching the Footy Show; I went to bed at 10pm; snoring with my sleep apnea machine all night .... until waking at 6.15am;

. On waking, Allison was missing (don't know if/where she slept in the house);

. Tried to reach her on her phone; sent a few text messages; enlisted the assistance of my father and my sister; I went out searching in the streets where she could have gone for an exercise walk, while out there driving around, he phoned 000 to report her missing; Olivia did a bit of a drive around as well;

. By process of elimination (checking her wardrobe) I knew of the clothing that Allison was wearing when her body was discovered); finally provided the Police for their dummy what she was possibly wearing; (a bit different to what she was wearing when found);

. That's about it ..... I have helped the Police to find her by giving them lots of information;

He would have been relieved of his concern and worry, when Allison's body was found under the bridge ...... one of the first things that one must do in these circumstances is to contact the Insurance Company re existing life insurance.

He knew he was under suspicion of something untoward ....... keep on with business as usual ...... while the Police are investigating to charge 'SOMEONE'.

Now that 'someone' is him, frustrating for him that he would not know what evidence the Prosecution will be presenting. His Legal team must have a very good idea, and surely would have given him an inside view. He will be working on juggling 'stuff'. However he would have a very good idea of most of the facts of what happened.

 

[alioop]

However, ANY mention of an "accident" or "panic" etc would immediately negate any idea of trying the defence tactic of suicide. Apart from all the facts that preclude suicide, either by overdose or by walking 14Km and jumping into the mud after having your hair done, the suggestion of an accidental death would make any further claims of suicide non-starters.

However, it may have occurred to GBC and his lawyers that suicide as a defence was worth trying on for bail, but that if they pushed that angle too hard, and actually won on that basis, then any life insurance payout would not be made on Allison's life. Unless I'm mistaken (always a possibility), most life insurance policies are rendered null and void if the subject of the policy is found to have committed suicide.

Ali - you know a lot more than I do about these things, and about Allison's life insurance in particular - is my assumption correct? That they may not want to push the suicide thing too hard?

From the point of view purely of getting GBC off the charges, they would presumably be better off to introduce doubt that HE was the perpetrator, but that SOMEBODY did it. And not suicide....

Just some thoughts ....

I think that the life insurances would be paid even if Allison had committed suicide. Most policies have an exclusion period of 12 to 13 months for suicide but these policies were years old. So I don't think this is an issue to concern the defence.
I do think that it will be part of the prosecution case from the outset to prove that Allison did not commit suicide. They are not going to leave it to the defence to raise it, they will deal with it upfront. Take the bull by the horns so to speak.

 

[Strangeworld]

STRANGEWORLD 'anything for a quiet life' we've all heard that saying. In the several years before Allison's murder, do you think she just became numb and overwhelmed by GBC, debts and his family? Is it a survival mode to block it out? Head in the sand?
What that poor girl went through was absolutely cruel. To hear of the affair at the school canteen? To know your employees of the company you own know about the affair and have kept it quiet. I cringe for Allison! The statement from one of the salesmen said they were all out when Allison walked in and GBC & TMcH quickly broke loose of each other. Allison was part owner of that firm, can you imagine when the penny dropped and she realised the contempt and disrespect that was dished out to her & remembering the sideways glances or the abrupt silence if she were to walk in? His family knew and condoned it, they worked there!

It' a wonder Allison didn't kill him!
Knowing what I know now, I would have cheered for her.

Good question TGY. I guess we can't say with certainty, but I think you are pretty close to it. I think Allison prided herself on her family and what she had achieved in her life. I think she was proud of her career achievements, but more than likely her home was more significant to her. Her lovely girls, and a marriage to the person she fell in love with. And her wider support circle - loving friends and family.

IMO - if Allison respected, loved and admired GBC, especially in the early years of their relationship, chances are she respected his outlook on life, his views and opinions. It becomes a slippery slope when that person then turns against the other - how was Allison to consolidate the fact that the person who she admired was now showing her that he didn't value her as a wife? IMO that's often where the self-degredation, the low self esteem, the lack of confidence can start. She was probably doubting herself because the person she looked up to doubted her.

I don't know if the tide was actually turning for Allison. What jumped out at me was how excited she was that GBC stayed and talked with the counsellor for so long. Without seeing her body language and the expression her face, we can only go off how the counsellor described it. But it did suggest to me a little bit of desperation (?). Like 'thank goodness he's showing an interest in our relationship...maybe he DOES love me, wants to be with me'. I just wonder if Allison was still focused on improving herself FOR GBC, not for herself.

Of course her diary does express a wide range of emotions (I'll have to go back and read over it again - has been a while!). No doubt she felt anger at GBC and TMH and parts of her would have probably been questioning why she was staying with him. But I just wonder if deep down, she really did want to make herself better for GBC, not for herself. Seeking a better self-concept and improved self esteem from others can be dangerous, because you never know if they have your best interests at heart.

 

[DrWatson]

I think that the life insurances would be paid even if Allison had committed suicide. Most policies have an exclusion period of 12 to 13 months for suicide but these policies were years old. So I don't think this is an issue to concern the defence.
I do think that it will be part of the prosecution case from the outset to prove that Allison did not commit suicide. They are not going to leave it to the defence to raise it, they will deal with it upfront. Take the bull by the horns so to speak.

Thanks for clearing that up, Ali - appreciated. I had been under the misapprehension that suicide automatically ruled out payment on a life insurance policy. Wrong, I was, as Yoda would say

 

[alioop]

Thanks for clearing that up, Ali - appreciated. I had been under the misapprehension that suicide automatically ruled out payment on a life insurance policy. Wrong, I was, as Yoda would say

Concern yourself, do not. Strong with you Doc, the anatomical force is.

 

[Sor Juana]

Agree right back at ya Radster (welcome back too!!). I think this is what we were tossing around before the courts ordered her to talk. Why be so against talking. I still don't know if it was Relationships Aus or Carmel that was fighting tooth and nail, but I really think confidentiality came second.

I wonder if RA or Carmel were worried about how their services would be perceived, and maybe some public backlash - such as how much the homework task may have contributed to the events that led to Allison's murder.

I will say again though, counselling is a tough job. No one size fits all. But I can just see so many flaws in her interactions with Allison and GBC. One thing I've always remembered when working with clients is make sure what you ask/suggest a client to do is within their existing skills and capabilities (which are discovered through a thorough assessment). If someone is emotionally fragile, or there is obvious stress in a relationship, you don't throw the cat amongst the pigeons! You build the skills in session, and then encourage transference of skills outside the session. I think this is very much lacking from what we've heard in this case.

Thanks, SW. So insightful analysis - could not agree more.

 

[Liadan]

Ahhh its not quite STAR WARS Ali and Doc, but I have to agree Yoda is going to be weighing in!
trust the force we must - become justice Allison, yesssssss sooon

 

[ollijack]

Just read through everything for the last 3 hours...you people are and always have
been so clever and brilliant...thankyou so much for all the effort..
*advertiser censored*

 

[Couldbe]

Can't find what day this occurred, but:

Sgt Jackson: "Gerard ...... that cut that's on your hand, what's that from?"
Baden-Clay: "..... you know when you put a bayonet fitting in, it goes into a plastic thing, and it's a forty year old house and it just [indistinct] cracked."

.... (He didn't have the difficulty removing it!). His description would mean something to me for one, if it was the bayonet type bulb that had been there for forty years; however, it is more likely that fitting had, but the bulb would be more recent, and the bulb glass itself wouldn't be likely to crack and cut his hand! An inspection of the particular light fitting could even show that it was the 'screw-in' type.

Didn't mention it to Jodi (who was with him; surprising because he was 'a liddle bit hurt'); Baden-Clay: ".... We were racing um to get it done because I had a 3.45 parent-teacher interview back here at school."
...... good chance that the Teacher at that interview would have noticed a cut.
...... no need to attempt to hide it if it wasn't there!!

JMO They could have him on this one.

 

[Spotted Reptile]

Didn't mention it to Jodi (who was with him; surprising because he was 'a liddle bit hurt'); Baden-Clay: ".... We were racing um to get it done because I had a 3.45 parent-teacher interview back here at school."
...... good chance that the Teacher at that interview would have noticed a cut.
...... no need to attempt to hide it if it wasn't there!!

JMO They could have him on this one.

That is VERY interesting. Great pickup.

 

[possumheart]

Ms McHugh said Baden-Clay next rang her on April 21, and told her police knew about the relationship and would contact her.

"He told me to tell the truth," she said.

Barrister Peter Davis asked Ms McHugh whether she was a suspect.

She said she was warned of her rights but it did not cross her mind that she would be suspect.

"I've only got the truth to tell and I was there to help," she said.

"I had no reason to fear from anything I said in the statement".

http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/mistress-tells-court-baden-clays-lie-low-request/1795712/

 

[Couldbe]

Barrister Peter Davis asked Ms McHugh whether she was a suspect. Was it just Peter Davis trying to rattle her?

She said she was warned of her rights but it did not cross her mind that she would be suspect.

"I've only got the truth to tell and I was there to help," she said.

"I had no reason to fear from anything I said in the statement"...... But there is a point that everything may not be in her statement?

At the Committal, TM had to create a couple of further Statements due to corrections she had been forced to make.
".........detectives had to issue a warning to Ms McHugh before she gave her fifth statement after discovering she had earlier "failed to disclose" a phone call with Baden-Clay.

"She told us she had not had any contact with Gerard Baden-Clay and we were aware that that was untrue," he said.

Mr Davis asked how police were aware of the phone call.

"I'm not really sure how to answer that ... covert technology," Det Sgt Roddick said.

Quite understand your 'This is creepy' Possumheart

Just say that TM was implicated directly in what happened to Allison ...... well if GBC was going to spill the beans on TM, then he would have to be admitting to guilt on his part as well! A 'Catch 22' situation for him.....better for him to shut up and let his Defence Lawyers deal with it ..... maybe he thinks that she could become that SOMEONE who had a very strong motive, and didn't have an alibi either (because she was attending the Conference, she may not have had her children with her on the night of 19 April). She was on the mobile talking to GBC around 5pm that evening.

JMO, while I don't think TM would have premeditated and committed this crime, I do wonder if this may be the angle of approach the Defence will take at the Trial....... (No longer the suicide theory, but that GBC didn't do it .... someone else did!

BUT why was TM offered Prosecutional Immunity? ........ Immunity from what sort of charge? .... After the fact? BUT she has said: "I had no reason to fear from anything I said in the statement".

 

[alioop]

We don't know if TM has been given immunity from prosecution. Personally I think not.

 

[they'll get you]

It is creepy Couldbe.
GBC remains in prison for a reason because the police have got the murderer but someone else knows the clincher. Could TMc have been angered about the revelations of other women but has now settled & softened. Will she do what the police are wanting of her? She knows a hell of a lot more and I think the police need every bit of her, that's why she's got the immunity. I agree there are so many missing links with this but a think we should be tightening our seat belts.

This is the statement outside court by Olivia.
[ame]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ju98sE-Xa4o[/ame]

 

[Couldbe]

The last of the series of the hijinks by Olivia over the days of the Committal. She seems to have fervently believed her brother deserved a break. Also, she says that she has provided the Police with a Statement and interviews.

 

[possumheart]

TM 'knew they were having counselling sessions and [he] had been told to speak about the affair for 15 minutes each night.'
Counsellor and Allison thought GBC had given Allison permission to vent.
In his statement GBC said Allison was to grill him.
My understanding is that 'speaking' is a one way process at which G had quite a bit of practice at schools and chambers of commerce - and 'grilling' is seeking the answers to lots of in-depth questions. Both rather different to Allison 'venting' and taking the floor. So I tend to agree that the counsellor was placated, and G was going to leave the marriage when his financials were sorted. Whether or not he was intending to be with TM, I couldn't give a tinkers. I am now totally leaning towards a plan that got adlibbed badly when it came to the crunch. Immunity or not, TM knew a lot more than she first told the boys in blue.
Moo

 

[sosocurious]

Can't find what day this occurred, but:

Sgt Jackson: "Gerard ...... that cut that's on your hand, what's that from?"
Baden-Clay: "..... you know when you put a bayonet fitting in, it goes into a plastic thing, and it's a forty year old house and it just [indistinct] cracked."

.... (He didn't have the difficulty removing it!). His description would mean something to me for one, if it was the bayonet type bulb that had been there for forty years; however, it is more likely that fitting had, but the bulb would be more recent, and the bulb glass itself wouldn't be likely to crack and cut his hand! An inspection of the particular light fitting could even show that it was the 'screw-in' type.

Didn't mention it to Jodi (who was with him; surprising because he was 'a liddle bit hurt'); Baden-Clay: ".... We were racing um to get it done because I had a 3.45 parent-teacher interview back here at school."
...... good chance that the Teacher at that interview would have noticed a cut.
...... no need to attempt to hide it if it wasn't there!!

JMO They could have him on this one.

Could be maybe they already have him.

From the bail documents in relation to injury to right palm.
Quote -- An employee of the Century 21 business Jody Meynell was present at this time and refuted this claim that the injury was sustained during the preparation of the open house.

 

[Couldbe]

It is creepy Couldbe.
GBC remains in prison for a reason because the police have got the murderer but someone else knows the clincher. Could TMc have been angered about the revelations of other women but has now settled & softened. Will she do what the police are wanting of her? She knows a hell of a lot more and I think the police need every bit of her, that's why she's got the immunity. I agree there are so many missing links with this but a think we should be tightening our seat belts.

This is the statement outside court by Olivia.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ju98sE-Xa4o

You could be right they'll get you .... TMc is looking like she may have now settled & softened. I think that she is still smitten; and will be still hoping that GBC can be found not guilty. Who knows how the Prosecution managed to get her as their witness, but she could figure that it is a smart move for her and 'looks better' too.
BUT with what GBC may have on her (and divulged to his Defence Lawyers) they could hit some raw nerves in their questioning/treatment of her at the Trial. As you say they'll get you .... a wild ride in store.