Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #47

[pulpfiction]

Because: Who would spend a huge amount on a special hair job, and then commit suicide?
It doesn't add up. Nothing at all adds up in fact.

Hi all. Haven't been in here for quite some time...work, family, yada yada yada.

Anyway...re Ladybirds thoughts above. True, it would seem unlikely that someone would get their hair done, be speaking of a conference the next day and then commit suicide but stranger things have happened.

I don't think it sounds like suicide either. In fact I don't believe it was. However, who knows what went on in that house that night when she got home. When someone drops a bombshell or something shocking, hurtful or out of the blue happens you forget about your hair pretty quickly. Not to suggest you drop that thought and immediately move to thoughts of suicide but there are many impulsive suicides that do happen seemingly on the spur of the moment timeline. They're the "that's the last straw" type and suddenly nothing else matters or things can seem so inconsequential.

By all accounts from what others write she seemed happy having her hair done. I hope so...because later on that night the course of events led to much unhappiness for her and ultimately heartbreak for her children and family. I don't see her jumping IMO.

Ps. marlywings - can you please inbox me where you want my psych quals sent for verification. Thx

 

[LadyBird1]

I've always been of the opinion that Allison's body was wrapped in a blanket, a tarpaulin or similar. Plant matter would not adhere to her lower body if this was the case.

And dragged backwards by the feet? That would the easiest way of moving her.

 

[Couldbe]

Hi all. Haven't been in here for quite some time...work, family, yada yada yada.

Anyway...re Ladybirds thoughts above. True, it would seem unlikely that someone would get their hair done, be speaking of a conference the next day and then commit suicide but stranger things have happened.

I don't think it sounds like suicide either. In fact I don't believe it was. However, who knows what went on in that house that night when she got home. When someone drops a bombshell or something shocking, hurtful or out of the blue happens you forget about your hair pretty quickly. Not to suggest you drop that thought and immediately move to thoughts of suicide but there are many impulsive suicides that do happen seemingly on the spur of the moment timeline. They're the "that's the last straw" type and suddenly nothing else matters or things can seem so inconsequential.

By all accounts from what others write she seemed happy having her hair done. I hope so...because later on that night the course of events led to much unhappiness for her and ultimately heartbreak for her children and family. I don't see her jumping IMO.

Ps. marlywings - can you please inbox me where you want my psych quals sent for verification. Thx

....... and then following on: GBC's part, avoiding having to face up to the consequences and lie to others (and himself)....to avoid self incrimination.
If he doesn't commit 'contempt of Court', I wonder if the inconsistencies (lies) would carry much weight in a Jury finding GBC guilty; 'truth' they would not be / facts they would be...lies to justify lies to cover up not telling the truth. Burning question: does Olivia hold the story that will contribute to "One day the truth will be revealed". If she does, then it shouldn't have been withheld until her brother was arrested and put on trial for murder! Would that constitute a crime?

 

[Liadan]

does anyone remember if GBC spent any time overnite in hospital after his dreadful car crash at indooroopilly shopping centre?

 

[Couldbe]

does anyone remember if GBC spent any time overnite in hospital after his dreadful car crash at indooroopilly shopping centre?

Found this in a Media article:
Mr Baden-Clay was involved in a single-vehicle accident two days after his wife disappeared. Asked about the accident, which resulted in a brief trip to hospital, Mr Baden-Clay answered a Channel Nine reporter almost bashfully.
''I was hurt a little bit, but I'm OK,'' he said, dipping his head ever so slightly.
(Apparently, he had said that he had sore ribs before they took him to Hospital).

I saw somewhere (in a Media article) that GBC said that, while he was at the Hospital, the Police made an Application to have him examined by a Psychiatrist to see if he would self-harm. While initially, he may have very much liked to have a little rest in Hospital, he may have had second thoughts!

 

[manniemoo]

Liadan - I think he spent at least one night in hospital after the car accident (possibly two?), I vaguely recall it being mentioned in the media that he was in hospital when Allison's parents did the terribly sad tv plea asking the public for information which was on the Monday, the day after the crash.

moo

 

[DrWatson]

Re the very short time that Allison ended up under the bridge after she died has been commented on previously by Dr Watson. From memory, and I am sure he will be happy to clarify, he said this could be a couple of hours or longer in terms of postmortem lividity being the pooling of blood in the body. Allison's body was found in the same position that caused that lividity likely due to being stuck in the mud. She wasn't moved much by the ebb and flow of the tide.

Hi all Sorry for the late reply here - been away for the last week or so, and I see things are starting to warm up here on WS as we build up to the legal proceedings.

Alioop is quite right - the lividity, or pooling then congealing of blood in those parts of the body that are dependent (i.e. lowest) starts in about half an hour or so, sometimes longer before it appears at all, then builds up until it is "fixed" by about 5-6 hours. So Allison's body could have been put in the position where she was found anywhere from about 30 minutes to about 5-6 hours after death. Most likely, within the first 2-3 hours.

The point of that is that she wasn't washed downstream, as many of us hypothesized earlier - she was in her final position within that first couple of hours or so. And the subsequent high tides would have been just lapping at her body, but not enough to dislodge it from the mud.

The flood surge we had on that heavy-rain weekend, as I recall from the hydrologist's report, happened on a LOW tide, so didn't reach the level of the normal high tide.

Hope that makes sense.

I'd better remember to check in here a bit more frequently now, as the action warms up

 

[BreakingNews]

THE BAZAAR thing is GBC knew exactly that Allison was wearing Lorna Jane 3/4 tights and specifically described them to the police!!!
These pants ARE worn by many in their day to day busy activities even to the hairdresser.
I don't like wearing good shirts to the hairdresser due to the dyes. I remember Allison having several colours in her hair including bleach foils.

How many men would know exactly what their partners were wearing at any given time? ESPECIALLY if they were having affairs and not the slightest bit interested in their wife. :jail::jail::jail:

 

[Tishy]

I am still happily waiting, rather like Madame de Farge at the guillotine, for this trial. I cant help it.. Mother Theresa I am not. I like it that Our Boy Gerard is still on his backside in remand, too.. that pleases me. His application for bail was a bad time, I couldn't have borne it.



What got me beady eyed about it was that first and only little clip of Gerard and the sweetly bosomed young lady reporter, Gerard skipping out of Olivia's car in a fever to blither... Olivia scrambling to catch up to him and tug on the back of his shirt...you could see right there, in a nanosecond, that He was nuts, She was nuts, and poor Alison was a goner. My hopes were that she was far, far away, with a capable solicitor, but ...



It was a pound to a penny that some other woman would suddenly erupt from the floorboards in a puff of sulphur, like a pantomime, in my most cynical fantasies I did not expect the sheer persistence and territorialism and ruthlessness of Ms Mchugh she was almost a caricature of all the extramarital bonks rolled into one looming parcel .



There are very very odd people on the inner fringe of this hideous murder... the dignity and sanity of Alisons family, the bewildered staff of the franchise, Alisons friends, merely point up the burbling stream of utter rubbish that has been cascading from poor Olivia's mouth, the Pastor husband, the Bwana and wife, the defence lawyer, the business associates, etc.. its like there is one world of normal and the other whirling world of a parallel universe that existed side by side up until that terrible moment...



I wait patiently... time stands still for no man...

Trooper de Farge lol
Surely you are no hunched crone

 

[BreakingNews]

does anyone remember if GBC spent any time overnite in hospital after his dreadful car crash at indooroopilly shopping centre?

Hi Liadan
I remember there was a report of him staying in hospital overnight, but then that wasn't reported on again and up pops 'little bit hurt' video. So I don't know. For a pysch assessment to take place, I doubt that he would have been kept in overnight for that. If he was in overnight, then my bet was that it was a self-harm watch (police probably didn't want him to escape that easily). :jail::jail::jail:

 

[marlywings]

does anyone remember if GBC spent any time overnite in hospital after his dreadful car crash at indooroopilly shopping centre?

If I recall correctly he spent two nights in hospital following the crash on Sunday, 22nd April. The "little bit hurt" news video was on 24th April & he'd just been released from hospital that day.

Missing mum Allison Baden-Clay's husband Gerard leaves hospital after car crash and talks about disappearance

April 24, 2012

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ter-in-car-crash/story-e6freoof-1226336841867

 

[LadyBird1]

I was thinking Allison's body may have been wrapped so as to confine her arms and legs from flailing around and to make it easier to drag her body to the car. I really don't know the answer, just speculating I guess.

I had reason one night to move a fairly inebriated person from A to B (All that within a house) This move was to be done by myself only.
Too heavy to lift, and the person too inebriated to help himself. Tried this, tried that. Eventually accomplished the manoeuvre by dragging him by the ankles.
Didn't get a thankyou next day though. "Why didn't you just let me sleep under the table?"
Actually I never thought of that......
Just saying that dragging a person by the feet is a lot easier than trying to support that person's shoulders and moving them. That's if you are not strong enough to do a deadlift and carry.

 

[Couldbe]

With GBC saying that, as suggested by the Psychologist, they spend 15 minutes talking about 'their problems' (Gee, did the Psychologist expect that this would be in front of the children?). GBC said that the 15 minute discussion had occurred that night ........ hopefully, on that night and on the other nights, the discussions were when the children were asleep (Given the ages of their children, that would most likely be around 9 pm .... at least for the oldest girl).

It has pretty well been established that their children were home that night ........ Police interview document states that the sleepover was to occur on the night of the 20th Apr, and GBC stated in his text message to Allison, that one of them was up and he had made the lunches.

In the Interview Document, GBC stated that he had phoned Olivia to come over and take the children to school; he also said that earlier that morning, Olivia had driven up Gold Creek Rd looking for Allison.

........ GBC said that he was in bed and asleep at 10 pm and wasn't aware of another thing after that .... until about 6.15 am when he awoke.
If as alleged, following further activities, he was 'out and about' during that time period, then unless their girls were removed from the house at some time/for some time on that night (and then returned and put to bed later), then surely a struggle from Allison and further activities at the house would awaken the little girls. Someone else would surely have been at the house for the girls ....... while GBC attended to his activities of that night.
Or maybe GBC was with his girls ........ while someone else helped with removing Allison's body to Kholo Creek!

 

[LadyBird1]

With GBC saying that, as suggested by the Psychologist, they spend 15 minutes talking about 'their problems' (Gee, did the Psychologist expect that this would be in front of the children?). GBC said that the 15 minute discussion had occurred that night ........ hopefully, on that night and on the other nights, the discussions were when the children were asleep (Given the ages of their children, that would most likely be around 9 pm .... at least for the oldest girl).

It has pretty well been established that their children were home that night ........ Police interview document states that the sleepover was to occur on the night of the 20th Apr, and GBC stated in his text message to Allison, that one of them was up and he had made the lunches.

In the Interview Document, GBC stated that he had phoned Olivia to come over and take the children to school; he also said that earlier that morning, Olivia had driven up Gold Creek Rd looking for Allison.

........ GBC said that he was in bed and asleep at 10 pm and wasn't aware of another thing after that .... until about 6.15 am when he awoke.
If as alleged, following further activities, he was 'out and about' during that time period, then unless their girls were removed from the house at some time/for some time on that night (and then returned and put to bed later), then surely a struggle from Allison and further activities at the house would awaken the little girls. Someone else would surely have been at the house for the girls ....... while GBC attended to his activities of that night.
Or maybe GBC was with his girls ........ while someone else helped with removing Allison's body to Kholo Creek!

I don't believe the girls were at home that night. (Took me a long time to wake to that though)
The girls were at the BC seniors place earlier when TMcH and GBC were having a heated telephone conversation.
GBC appears to have had a store red herrings. Also appears to have been ready and willing to strew those red herrings how, when and where necessary.
One being the text messages suggesting the girls were not up yet. And another to do with making the school lunches.
Took me months to wake to the red herrings usage especially regarding placing the girls that night. (Meaning where the girls actually were all night)
When the girls appeared with Aunty early next morning, it is my opinion now that they had not even entered the house. All IMOO.
To confuse the issue some more, thoughts then were directed towards a sleepover, thus clouding the issue murkier.
He appears adept (professional even) at answering questions with a deflection.
'Tis that subtle manner of re-directing or re focussing ones priorities and thoughts that became later recognized as the modus operandi of the POI.

 

[Couldbe]

I don't believe the girls were at home that night. (Took me a long time to wake to that though)
The girls were at the BC seniors place earlier when TMcH and GBC were having a heated telephone conversation.
GBC appears to have had a store red herrings. Also appears to have been ready and willing to strew those red herrings how, when and where necessary.
One being the text messages suggesting the girls were not up yet. And another to do with making the school lunches.
Took me months to wake to the red herrings usage especially regarding placing the girls that night. (Meaning where the girls actually were all night)
When the girls appeared with Aunty early next morning, it is my opinion now that they had not even entered the house. All IMOO.
To confuse the issue some more, thoughts then were directed towards a sleepover, thus clouding the issue murkier.
'Tis that subtle manner of re-directing or re focussing ones priorities and thoughts that became later recognized as the modus operandi of the POI.

.....Wow Ladbird1! Will have to work on that useful snippet and try and clarify my understanding more. I think I remember reading that the Police saw Olivia coming down the stairs (Doesn't mean that the children weren't in her car though). Will be interesting to go back and look at the wording of Constable Ash.

 

[Fuskier]

I don't believe the girls were at home that night. (Took me a long time to wake to that though)
The girls were at the BC seniors place earlier when TMcH and GBC were having a heated telephone conversation.
GBC appears to have had a store red herrings. Also appears to have been ready and willing to strew those red herrings how, when and where necessary.
One being the text messages suggesting the girls were not up yet. And another to do with making the school lunches.
Took me months to wake to the red herrings usage especially regarding placing the girls that night. (Meaning where the girls actually were all night)
When the girls appeared with Aunty early next morning, it is my opinion now that they had not even entered the house. All IMOO.
To confuse the issue some more, thoughts then were directed towards a sleepover, thus clouding the issue murkier.
He appears adept (professional even) at answering questions with a deflection.
'Tis that subtle manner of re-directing or re focussing ones priorities and thoughts that became later recognized as the modus operandi of the POI.

:waitasec:

Just a query Ladybird1: Didn't OW state to QPol that G told the children around 6.15am that morning that mummy had fallen down a hole and won't be back?

How does this fit into the alleged scenario?

 

[LadyBird1]

:waitasec:

Just a query Ladybird1: Didn't OW state to QPol that G told the children around 6.15am that morning that mummy had fallen down a hole and won't be back?

How does this fit into the alleged scenario?

In keeping with "the children slept at the family home scenario, "proven" by the text messages; thus absolving G of any wrongdoing, OW delivers the children to the family home. Important that the children were seen to have slept at home.

Slight glitch in plan though. The police apparently have arrived promptly. (Thought they would take over 24 hours to act on a missing person report.)

They ask "Where's Mummy?"

Explanation given. Bit clumsy, but important thing to do is remove them ASAP. And shush 'em up quick. In case they drop any clangers.
Things could become a bit sticky.

Is it possible that any of this scenario has been purposely "staged" in order to prove innocence?

 

[LadyBird1]

:waitasec:

Just a query Ladybird1: Didn't OW state to QPol that G told the children around 6.15am that morning that mummy had fallen down a hole and won't be back?

How does this fit into the alleged scenario?

Hello Fuskier, Sleep deprivation does wonders for one's oddities in speech and behaviour. Any shift worker here may attest to that. Referring here to the hazy speech, after the all night shift.

 

[Couldbe]

In keeping with "the children slept at the family home scenario, "proven" by the text messages; thus absolving G of any wrongdoing, OW delivers the children to the family home. Important that the children were seen to have slept at home.

Slight glitch in plan though. The police apparently have arrived promptly. (Thought they would take over 24 hours to act on a missing person report.)

They ask "Where's Mummy?"

Explanation given. Bit clumsy, but important thing to do is remove them ASAP. And shush 'em up quick. In case they drop any clangers.
Things could become a bit sticky.

Is it possible that any of this scenario has been purposely "staged" in order to prove innocence?

Ladybird1 .... I have checked in the Kieron Ash Statement, and it is worthwhile reading through that again. Constable Ash includes wording in it to the effect that Olivia was walking three children down the stairs and then put them into a vehicle (no mention if they were school uniforms). He saw GBC standing at the top of the stairs. GBC, following stating that Olivia was his sister and that he had called her and asked her to take his children to school. (didn't actually say 'come and take them to school' though!) he then asked for the Police vehicle to be moved to enable Olivia to drive off with the children .... in the blue sedan (facing the house at the end of the driveway) which was parked just in front of the Police vehicle. Constable Ash also stated that the Captiva was reverse parked under the carport at the left of the house, silver Holden Statesman was parked facing down the driveway directly in front of the house, a white Toyota Prado was parked across the driveway.
He observed that GBC was dressed in business attire with tie and cufflinks. When GBC was questioned with regard to definitely having taken the Captiva out that morning to look for Allison, he replied that he did, and it was easy for him to reverse around the Prado.

...... so, really nothing to say that Olivia hadn't brought them with her to the house that morning. 8 am is quite early to be taking the children to school (considering it is probably less than 5 minutes drive away)....Children arriving prior to 8:30am should attend Before School Care (from School website). Olivia told Constable Ash that GBC had told the girls shortly after 6 am that Allison had gone for a walk and probably fell down a hole and would not be back. (Unlikely that at that time around 6 am, he would be telling them anything to that effect, as he should have expected that Allison would be returning from her walk!)

 

[overloaded]

Unfortunately for the children, I think they are the key to all of this.