Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#5

[aa9511]

What cleanup? And if Amanda really wanted a black man to take the fall for the crime why not use the black man who's DNA was all over and in Meredith?

Maybe we're looking at two different cases..........

 

[aa9511]

It is not compromised at all. That is just your opinion. I thought we had to state clearly that our opinions are not facts? Contamination theories are laughable IMO. There isn't even any source for contamination.

Knox and Sollecito came back later to leave their bloody footprints. They didn't run off on bare feet. They had their shoes on. Guede however did not fly around from the body to the bed, to the wall, to the bathroom. There is clear evidence of staging and cleaning since he would have left bloody shoe prints. Knox had every opportunity to clean her shoe prints.

The crime scene becomes very easy to 'read' if you just keep an open mind and not go into an endless series of improbable scenarios. There is no proof that Sollecito didn't touch the bra clasp. That can never be proven, so why not keep an open mind? JMO.

I agree. There is no grand mystery in this case, IMO. If the evidence that exists isn't blocked out of the mind, it is really quite simple. MOO.

 

[aa9511]

I believe MK would have fought back as that would be a natural instinct, unless she was somehow taken by surprise or immobilized

That said, one can have all the self defense training, etc in the world. But MK is simply no match for RG. Thousands of women are murdered every year by men coming into their home and attempting rape and sometimes they kill them. The vast majority of women - even women skilled in martial arts - are simply no match for a strong 6 foot guy. You also practice such skills in a classroom setting, no one knows how you would react or use those skills if you were suddenly frightened in the safety of your home. I don't think MK was some big women, I think she might have been petite, small boned. Also we do not know what she went through. She might have thought he was using the knife as a weapon not to kill her but to frighten her for a rape so she would not scream. So she may have been too frightened to use her skills, bc she probably in her wildest dreams did not think RG would actually kill her.

It doesn't require a black belt in karate to get defensive wounds.

 

[Harmony 2]

I wonder if it was on or plugged in. If not plugged in, she could have been borrowing it and put it by door to remember to give it back,

If it was on, that would be a little weird. I don't see any reason any one - MK, RG, AK, etc.,- would even do that.

The only thing that it could be is maybe there was not a desk that the line would stretch to in order to plug into a wall outlet; not sure if that is the case or if people knew where the outlets were but MK could have had computer, etc plugged in the outlets near her and maybe an outlet by the door was the only available outlet and the cord was too short to both plug in and put it of the table. Most times you would just use an extension cord but maybe she used it only temporarily and did not have one

I think the implication is that the lamp was used during cleanup...

By sight, how does one recognize one's own DNA, footprints or fingerprints?
How does one remove one's own DNA completely using a lamp?
Why go through all that trouble of cleaning bloody footprints but then leave a bloody footprint on a rug, bloody smear on a faucet and light switch a few feet away?

 

[Yellow]

As was stated upthread earlier today, I think Crini should have been a little more broad as to motive, as headlines such as this look slightly ridiculous:



http://www.independent.ie/world-new...have-triggered-kerchers-killing-29787279.html

So now the story changed once again? Now they claim RG was somehow in that apartment (as a guest?) went to the bathroom, MK went in there, saw the unflushed toilet,,critiques AK, AK got mad at MK being a mother hen telling her what to do, and said to RG and RS, hey let's kill MK?

Yeah, that headline will sure go over well with the American public on the media firestorm that will happen in January should this conviction be upheld; "American Girl Kills Because Roommate Chided Her for Failing to Flush Toilet"

They should have at least kept to the sex story motive. This unflushed toilet story has nothing to do with RG and RS- their link to that is so tenuous it is laughable, whereas the sex story (still unbelievable) but some could believe a man can kill at a women's urging for sex, I don't think they think a man will kill at a women's urging for a disagreement about the toilet. Especially w RG, maybe RS would get himself involved in an argument about the toilet but why would RG kill MK for that or join w AK? If anything, that scenario has AK in conflict with RG- she would be saying, "it was not me - it was him." AK and RG would be arguing over who defecated so how would that ever result in the two then agreeing to just go kill MK?

 

[otto]

I believe MK would have fought back as that would be a natural instinct, unless she was somehow taken by surprise or immobilized

That said, one can have all the self defense training, etc in the world. But MK is simply no match for RG. Thousands of women are murdered every year by men coming into their home and attempting rape and sometimes they kill them. The vast majority of women - even women skilled in martial arts - are simply no match for a strong 6 foot guy. You also practice such skills in a classroom setting, no one knows how you would react or use those skills if you were suddenly frightened in the safety of your home. I don't think MK was some big women, I think she might have been petite, small boned. Also we do not know what she went through. She might have thought he was using the knife as a weapon not to kill her but to frighten her for a rape so she would not scream. So she may have been too frightened to use her skills, bc she probably in her wildest dreams did not think RG would actually kill her.

Meredith was cut with a knife in her neck area. The cuts were nicks; shallow cuts. They were not meant to be fatal. Why would Meredith do nothing to defend herself?

In knife attacks, it is very common for there to be defensive wound - knife cuts - from the victim grabbing onto the blade of the knife. Why wouldn't Meredith do this?

 

[Yellow]

I think the implication is that the lamp was used during cleanup...

By sight, how does one recognize one's own DNA, footprints or fingerprints?
How does one remove one's own DNA completely using a lamp?
Why go through all that trouble of cleaning bloody footprints but then leave a bloody footprint on a rug, bloody smear on a faucet and light switch a few feet away?

What also ties the clean up to AK and RS? If you used a lamp, then the cleanup would have happened that night bc you would not need a lamp in the morning. As far as I know, there is no evidence of bleach in the murder room or maybe anywhere in that apartment. The mop did not have blood or other evidence on it. How then was the scene cleaned?

Also I could see someone wiping away blood as clean up but unless you are really skilled in forensics you cannot clean DNA. I think you need to use bleach. What evidence is there of bleach?

Those supporting guilt say she went to the store the next morning and supposedly the store clerk said she bought bleach. Is she on the video cam? Can the store produce a receipt showing bleach was purchased at that time? Even if she purchased bleach at that time, would not it be a very tight timeline to do all she did before the postal police arrived?

 

[TorisMom003]

The bra clasp was not collected until, what was it, 47 days after the murder. It had been moved from it's original location somehow. The ones that were collecting evidence didn't change their gloves in between collecting evidence. I'd say there is a great chance of contamination when it comes to the bra clasp.

 

[sherlockh]

I think the implication is that the lamp was used during cleanup...

By sight, how does one recognize one's own DNA, footprints or fingerprints?
How does one remove one's own DNA completely using a lamp?
Why go through all that trouble of cleaning bloody footprints but then leave a bloody footprint on a rug, bloody smear on a faucet and light switch a few feet away?

There were no fingerprints from anyone so that is not an issue. How do you know there was DNA? There is no reason to leave DNA if you stab someone with a knife other then on the knife itself. So they removed their DNA by removing the knives. Simple as that.

The few blood traces left in the bathroom were all in difficult to clean places. The blood on the floor had all been cleaned, sink mostly, bidet mostly, door had been completely cleaned except the side as if it was closed when it was cleaned. That leaves the bathmat that they should have removed but apparently decided not to as they didn't recognize the blob as a footprint. IMO.

 

[Yellow]

Meredith was cut with a knife in her neck area. The cuts were nicks; shallow cuts. They were not meant to be fatal. Why would Meredith do nothing to defend herself?

In knife attacks, it is very common for there to be defensive wound - knife cuts - from the victim grabbing onto the blade of the knife. Why wouldn't Meredith do this?

I think she was really overwhelmed/taken by surprise. I think RG could easily have overpowered her preventing her from making defensive wounds. We also don't know what she did to RG. I think it was several days later before the police got a hold of him. He could very well have had Knicks or she could have done something else to him or pushed him leaving some mark on him.

Not all women raped/murdered in their home by strong men leave defensive wounds. And many of those cases involve only one killer. If MK were 6 feet tall plus a black belt in karate maybe she would, but I don't think MK could physically overcome RG. Indeed, I don't think even a big strong women skilled in martial arts could overcome a man with a knife.

also, as I mentioned previously, she might have thought this was going to be a rape, and maybe she thought if she did not fight back too much, he at least would not kill her. I think that is often why we sometimes do not see defensive wounds on rape victims. This probably all happened in quick succession too, where maybe cuts that immobilized her came within seconds of the first contact w the knife.

RG was strong enough to overpower her, it happens to women all the time. Very rarely (except in some of these bad jealous teen girl movies they sometimes have on lifetime) do you see a scene where 3 people hold down someone stabbing them.

 

[Yellow]

The bra clasp was not collected until, what was it, 47 days after the murder. It had been moved from it's original location somehow. The ones that were collecting evidence didn't change their gloves in between collecting evidence. I'd say there is a great chance of contamination when it comes to the bra clasp.

I would also add the independent experts said contamination was a possibility as did 19 other scientific experts. The judge in this recent case even said there is no reason to think C&V is unreliable, so I follow that, and given I am not a scientist, if the independent experts say there is a possibility of contamination, I believe them.

It also does not take an expert to watch that video and see how they were handling that evidence. It also does not make sense why RS DNA would have been merely on a small part of the clasp, if it was nefarious, it should have been on other parts of the bra as well. The fact that just one sole piece links RS to it leaves open the possibility that it was contaminated. If there was more DNA against him, like 5,4,3 pieces I would say not all is contaminated but one piece? yeah, that could be contaminated given how they handled that crime scene.

 

[TorisMom003]

There were no fingerprints from anyone so that is not an issue. How do you know there was DNA? There is no reason to leave DNA if you stab someone with a knife other then on the knife itself. So they removed their DNA by removing the knives. Simple as that.

The few blood traces left in the bathroom were all in difficult to clean places. The blood on the floor had all been cleaned, sink mostly, bidet mostly, door had been completely cleaned except the side as if it was closed when it was cleaned. That leaves the bathmat that they should have removed but apparently decided not to as they didn't recognize the blob as a footprint. IMO.

RG's handprint was found in Meredith's blood on a pillow, yes? Is a handprint not the same concept as a fingerprint?

 

[Yellow]

This ridiculous toilet story is in THE headline for the story in newspapers all over the world. If you look it up, nearly all the headlines mention at least either that MK was murdered over the toilet tiff or AK killed bc of cleaning or toilet fight.

Not sure why they waited till now to connect RG's bathroom incident into the story.

 

[sherlockh]

RG's handprint was found in Meredith's blood on a pillow, yes? Is a handprint not the same concept as a fingerprint?

I don't know. I have never seen a picture of that hand print. I think it is a bit of a stretch to say that everybody should have left a hand print just because there is a single hand print of Guede.

 

[redheadedgal]

See post 940

but, that is all opinion/pure speculation...

They should also have tested every knife in that drawer too.

they didn't test any knives at the cottage either, did they?

did they test any from PL's house as part of their investigation of his involvement ?

... I shouldn't be surprised that there are now excuses for the alleged absence of Knox's DNA on her lamp, but I am. Of course there's no DNA belonging to Knox on her own lamp, even though it was the only light source in her bedroom.

was MK's dna found on her lamp?

 

[Yellow]

but, that is all opinion/pure speculation...

they didn't test any knives at the cottage either, did they?

did they test any from PL's house as part of their investigation of his involvement

was MK's dna found on her lamp?

They did not test any of those knifes I don't think. Testing the other things in that drawer was important to set up a control. For instance, maybe they would have had that same result if they tested the spoon and surely the murder weapon was not a spoon. If there was contamination going on, it could have occurred to other things in that drawer possibly

The prosecution concedes there is a missing knife. Why don't they test all the knives? Probably bc none of the knives fit the cuts (the knife that they did test does not fit the cuts either). RG probably threw that murder weapon away on his way to Germany IMO. Or that night somewhere in a trash can or in the ground.

I think PL was eliminated as a suspect before they even executed a search warrant on his home, or at the very least, before any DNA testing took place.

The prosecution did not test AK's lamp so I doubt they tested MK. But they should have. I don't know how touch DNA works or how long it lasts.

 

[Yellow]

I don't know. I have never seen a picture of that hand print. I think it is a bit of a stretch to say that everybody should have left a hand print just because there is a single hand print of Guede.

I don't think the poster is saying that everyone should have left a handprint

But RG left a handprint in blood on her pillow. If they were so interested in cleaning, why didn't they wipe that away? Why not just take off the pillowcase?

If you had 3 people stabbing someone in that room, and it being alleged AK and RS somehow held her down, you would have their DNA on her body somehow or you would have them stepping in the blood in the murder room near the body. Footprints found in other parts of the apartment that matched AK were not even blood.

 

[otto]

I think she was really overwhelmed/taken by surprise. I think RG could easily have overpowered her preventing her from making defensive wounds. We also don't know what she did to RG. I think it was several days later before the police got a hold of him. He could very well have had Knicks or she could have done something else to him or pushed him leaving some mark on him.

Not all women raped/murdered in their home by strong men leave defensive wounds. And many of those cases involve only one killer. If MK were 6 feet tall plus a black belt in karate maybe she would, but I don't think MK could physically overcome RG. Indeed, I don't think even a big strong women skilled in martial arts could overcome a man with a knife.

also, as I mentioned previously, she might have thought this was going to be a rape, and maybe she thought if she did not fight back too much, he at least would not kill her. I think that is often why we sometimes do not see defensive wounds on rape victims. This probably all happened in quick succession too, where maybe cuts that immobilized her came within seconds of the first contact w the knife.

RG was strong enough to overpower her, it happens to women all the time. Very rarely (except in some of these bad jealous teen girl movies they sometimes have on lifetime) do you see a scene where 3 people hold down someone stabbing them.

It is not just the 43 injuries with an absence of defensive wounds, or the staged break in, or the DNA evidence of three different individuals, or the clean up, but the totality of the scene that reveals that the evidence, the staging, the injuries and clean up were not caused solely by Guede.

 

[Yellow]

So does anyone know why RG would have went to the bathroom and further not flushed it? I know what the pro guilty side would argue, but what explains that if RG is sole perp? Was it just that he was snooping around, not thinking anyone was home and then decided to go to the bathroom? I think the bathroom incident had to have happened pre murder, he might have been on the toilet when MK arrived home and that is why he did not flush, he would have startled her

I don't think it was after the murder. I mean surely would someone be so stupid so as to leave that evidence after the murder?

In any event his bathroom thing is just odd. I think he heard from the guys downstairs that they were going to be away, maybe one of the girls mentioned it too. He must have felt he had time to do that

 

[redheadedgal]

Meredith wasn't a middle-class woman. She was a British student that had that had trained in martial arts.

"Her father John also described how Meredith was strong and had been trained in karate, insisting she would have tried to fight off her attackers. Meredith’s family were speaking in court about the impact of her murder in Perugia, Italy"
was
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ith-Kercher-fought-end-family-tell-court.html

since the below has also been stated (thread #4), do you have a link to a transcript for the bolded remark?

otto: It's the Daily Mail. I think we all know what to expect from that source.

I'm sorry, I just don't believe if she was being stabbed with a knife, she wouldn't have tried to protect herself and get away.

I believe the reflexes are a basic HUMAN reaction. Such as, when you have a knife possibly coming at your face and neck, a HUMAN instinctively puts their hands up to protect themselves. That would have resulted in defensive cuts on her hands, had her hands been free.

I do not believe this, I'm sorry.

Woman stabbed 26 times... No defensive wounds.

http://www.nbc4i.com/story/23769794/coroner-woman-stabbed-in-blendon-twp-park-stabbed-26-times