Analyzing the Ramsey family

[kaykay543]

Here's a thread with a poll on this site that was started in 2004 - Who Killed Jon Benet Ramsey? Poll

PDI is first with IDI second BDI third and JDI last. I bet a lot of the PDI votes believed John was molesting Jonbenet. Patsy killing Jonbenet out of jealousy was even a popular stomach churning theory at one point from what i remember. PDI had 207 votes more than BDI and IDI had 119 more, shows how much things have changed as i think BDI would come first now.

I agree.

I have changed my mind a couple times over the years.

I started really thinking about the "burglary"at JR's house in Atlanta. In my opinion, the whole thing was fake and staged. I don't even think the police took it seriously. Once again it involved a basement door. Once again the alarm system was turned off.

Now seriously, if your child was murdered in your home by an intruder; wouldn't you make sure to turn on your alarm system in your new house? I would think you would be hyper vigilant about security. Would you really make the same mistake twice?

In my opinion JR faked the entire scenario as if to say "See it happened again!" Which is almost what he said in interviews.

 

[Nadal]

I agree.

I have changed my mind a couple times over the years.

I started really thinking about the "burglary"at JR's house in Atlanta. In my opinion, the whole thing was fake and staged. I don't even think the police took it seriously. Once again it involved a basement door. Once again the alarm system was turned off.

Now seriously, if your child was murdered in your home by an intruder; wouldn't you make sure to turn on your alarm system in your new house? I would think you would be hyper vigilant about security. Would you really make the same mistake twice?

In my opinion JR faked the entire scenario as if to say "See it happened again!" Which is almost what he said in interviews.

I've never really read into this burglary, just looked it up. According to this - John Ramsey surprises burglar

The door was locked from the outside, guns were missing, he had cuts, bruises and an injury to his left eye and LE thought it had no connection to the Jonbenet case. It sounds like they took it seriously. Was there ever any update and was there ever any other reasons to distrust the account outside distrust of the Ramsey's? It does sound weird but it also sounds like something that could have happened, John's a rich guy a target for burglars. John claimed he took more than the guns, LE doesn't dispute that but they only mention guns, even if it was only guns that could be because he interrupted him in the middle of it. I'm sort of playing devils advocate but i also think it's possible this actually happened tbh.

Have you got a link mentioning the alarm system was turned off? Couldn't find mention of it.

 

[kaykay543]

I've never really read into this burglary, just looked it up. According to this - John Ramsey surprises burglar

The door was locked from the outside, guns were missing, he had cuts, bruises and an injury to his left eye and LE thought it had no connection to the Jonbenet case. It sounds like they took it seriously. Was there ever any update and was there ever any other reasons to distrust the account outside distrust of the Ramsey's? It does sound weird but it also sounds like something that could have happened, John's a rich guy a target for burglars. John claimed he took more than the guns, LE doesn't dispute that but they only mention guns, even if it was only guns that could be because he interrupted him in the middle of it. I'm sort of playing devils advocate but i also think it's possible this actually happened tbh.

Have you got a link mentioning the alarm system was turned off? Couldn't find mention of it.

JonBenet Ramsey Murder Case: The Denver Post

There was never any update by police which is a clue. And of course JR says it was a "black man". And the thief only took his wives cheap jewelry. None of the good stuff lol. The fact that he "may" have taken guns only came out later and was never proven. I haven't read of many thieves that park their car in the driveway to rob a house. Even so JR apparently couldn't say for sure what the car was even though he supposedly parked next to it, and looked inside it. He said it "might have been a Chevy Cavaliar type car" and then later said maybe a Ford. He's not even sure of the color of the car. Like all JR stories it changes as time goes on.

I love the part that the thief tied the bathroom door shut from the outside using JR's coat. Bathroom doors open in. So of course he was easily able to get out. That was convenient.

I don't believe one word of it. But lets just say it did happen. Again why would the alarm system not be on after what this family has been through? Burke was living in this house. Like everything Ramsey it doesn't make sense.

This same thing has come up with many other murders. Where the suspect will try to make it look like a similar crime has happened to prove the first one happened.

 

[Nadal]

JonBenet Ramsey Murder Case: The Denver Post

There was never any update by police which is a clue. And of course JR says it was a "black man". And the thief only took his wives cheap jewelry. None of the good stuff lol. The fact that he "may" have taken guns only came out later and was never proven. I haven't read of many thieves that park their car in the driveway to rob a house. Even so JR apparently couldn't say for sure what the car was even though he supposedly parked next to it, and looked inside it. He said it "might have been a Chevy Cavaliar type car" and then later said maybe a Ford. He's not even sure of the color of the car. Like all JR stories it changes as time goes on.

I love the part that the thief tied the bathroom door shut from the outside using JR's coat. Bathroom doors open in. So of course he was easily able to get out. That was convenient.

I don't believe one word of it. But lets just say it did happen. Again why would the alarm system not be on after what this family has been through? Burke was living in this house. Like everything Ramsey it doesn't make sense.

This same thing has come up with many other murders. Where the suspect will try to make it look like a similar crime has happened to prove the first one happened.

He claims he took a wallet, clothes and a computer too: He said the thief took his wallet, a computer, his wife Patsy's "Kmart jewelry" and some clothes. The intruder also may have taken some guns from the two-story, Mediterranean-style house, police said.

It's definitely weird.

Do you have any other examples of this? - "This same thing has come up with many other murders. Where the suspect will try to make it look like a similar crime has happened to prove the first one happened." Just out of interest i can't think of any but am probably forgetting.

 

[angelevie]

There is no need to go into graphic detail on what is "severe" child sexual abuse. It does nothing for the conversation.

All the doctors that looked at JBR and her autopsy findings agreed that there were signs of prior sexual abuse. Dr McCann was one of the worlds leading experts on child sexual abuse. Her trauma was not caused by a bike, horse or medical intervention. Her pediatrician said he never did an internal exam on her.

I am truly not trying to pick on you. I just feel strongly that what this little girl went through should not be minimized by anyone. She had many signs of being sexually abused even without the physical exam. And not all sexual abuse centers on the vagina. None of us will ever know for sure what she went though. But there is no question that she was sexually molested.

I'm so sorry if I upset or offended you at all! I agree with you. I was simply trying to play devil's advocate and share my own feelings purely about the autopsy results and then relay my experiences... I can see how that might come off badly though. I think I'm being too clinical, it's a coping mechanism for me but I should be more mindful... at this point I'll definitely refrain from sharing any more thought on this specific issue, I think my own background is clouding my ability to speak well and respectfully about it. I wouldn't dream at all of minimizing her struggles and all I've ever wanted to do when talking here is to bring attention to her tragedy and advocate for her, so honestly, thank you for calling out the issues in my post.

thank you for being respectful and for your input!

 

[angelevie]

I agree.

I have changed my mind a couple times over the years.

I started really thinking about the "burglary"at JR's house in Atlanta. In my opinion, the whole thing was fake and staged. I don't even think the police took it seriously. Once again it involved a basement door. Once again the alarm system was turned off.

Now seriously, if your child was murdered in your home by an intruder; wouldn't you make sure to turn on your alarm system in your new house? I would think you would be hyper vigilant about security. Would you really make the same mistake twice?

In my opinion JR faked the entire scenario as if to say "See it happened again!" Which is almost what he said in interviews.

the Ramseys have always been trying to victimize themselves... this feels just the same, super staged and meant to bolster the idea that there are intruders trying to hurt their family because they have an issue with John and direct attention away from themselves.
even if it did happen, though, IMO there is no one invested enough in this family to follow them around the country and keep tormenting them like this. I think the Ramseys sometimes over-value themselves... they're not the royal family or the Kardashians lol, there's very little to gain in taking down the Ramseys other than like... satisfaction maybe? if you hate rich people? so that just doesn't seem feasible to me at all, if that's really the suggestion the Ramseys are trying to make... and I don't think any blue-collar criminal or robber would want to risk being caught messing with the Ramseys for fear of being implicated somehow. there are plenty of other rich people in Atlanta.

at the same time, I guess it's possible someone who holds major disdain for John and Patsy and thinks they're child murderers might do this sort of thing to "get revenge" or whatever, or even a burglar who would think enough people don't like them to bother investigating any injustice against them and therefore they'd get away with robbery... but that's a very different issue than connecting this incident to JonBenét's case, as John seemingly did. if it happened at all, I seriously don't think someone is stalking them and making their life miserable. and if you really think someone is out to get you, invest in better security and use it, John... damn...

He claims he took a wallet, clothes and a computer too: He said the thief took his wallet, a computer, his wife Patsy's "Kmart jewelry" and some clothes. The intruder also may have taken some guns from the two-story, Mediterranean-style house, police said.

It's definitely weird.

Do you have any other examples of this? - "This same thing has come up with many other murders. Where the suspect will try to make it look like a similar crime has happened to prove the first one happened." Just out of interest i can't think of any but am probably forgetting.

seems we see this kind of deflecting and placing blame outside of the home a lot with middle to upper-class caucasian families... Susan Smith blaming some generic black man for kidnapping and killing her kids... JonBenét's ransom note with this super generic "foreign faction" and then this robbery that is yet again pinned on someone stereotypically viewed as "less than" in society... Jeffrey MacDonald with the generic "hippies"... I'm pretty sure the Routiers blamed random black male intruders too... and all of these are solved cases of parents killing their kids/families except for one, which is the Ramsey case... it all just feels phony.

 

[Nadal]

and I don't think any blue-collar criminal or robber would want to risk being caught messing with the Ramseys for fear of being implicated somehow. there are plenty of other rich people in Atlanta.

at the same time, I guess it's possible someone who holds major disdain for John and Patsy and thinks they're child murderers might do this sort of thing to "get revenge" or whatever, or even a burglar who would think enough people don't like them to bother investigating any injustice against them and therefore they'd get away with robbery... but that's a very different issue than connecting this incident to JonBenét's case, as John seemingly did. if it happened at all, I seriously don't think someone is stalking them and making their life miserable. and if you really think someone is out to get you, invest in better security and use it, John... damn...

To play devils advocate the robber may not have known it was the Ramsey's house, he could have simply targeted a nice looking house. I'd be interested in finding out if there was any other robbery reports in the area say within two months before and after this alleged incident. I agree the incident is weird and i wouldn't be surprised if it was staged, there's just not enough information though i could only find a few repetitive articles and no update. The police also didn't say anything other than guns may be missing and they don't think it had anything to do with Jonbenet's death, for all we know a neighbour corroborated by saying they saw the vehicle or whatever. This was a minor robbery so there's no need for LE to update and i'm guessing the media didn't bother following up. I also couldn't find any description of the robber nevermind him blaming it on a black man unless i missed it.

I'd also be interested in examples of this as i said earlier - "This same thing has come up with many other murders. Where the suspect will try to make it look like a similar crime has happened to prove the first one happened."

 

[kaykay543]

To play devils advocate the robber may not have known it was the Ramsey's house, he could have simply targeted a nice looking house. I'd be interested in finding out if there was any other robbery reports in the area say within two months before and after this alleged incident. I agree the incident is weird and i wouldn't be surprised if it was staged, there's just not enough information though i could only find a few repetitive articles and no update. The police also didn't say anything other than guns may be missing and they don't think it had anything to do with Jonbenet's death, for all we know a neighbour corroborated by saying they saw the vehicle or whatever. This was a minor robbery so there's no need for LE to update and i'm guessing the media didn't bother following up. I also couldn't find any description of the robber nevermind him blaming it on a black man unless i missed it.

I'd also be interested in examples of this as i said earlier - "This same thing has come up with many other murders. Where the suspect will try to make it look like a similar crime has happened to prove the first one happened."

Back when this happened there was more info out there. But there are still some that show he said it was a "light skinned black male" I think its also on the old candy rose website.

Normally a robbery like this would not be news. But because it was JR it was news. So you would think there would be an update by LE.

I can't remember the names of murders etc where I have seen this done before. Sorry. I have been a true crime reader for about 30 years lol. I am scared of what anyone would think if they see all the books I have read in my kindle.

 

[Nadal]

Back when this happened there was more info out there. But there are still some that show he said it was a "light skinned black male" I think its also on the old candy rose website.

Normally a robbery like this would not be news. But because it was JR it was news. So you would think there would be an update by LE.

I can't remember the names of murders etc where I have seen this done before. Sorry. I have been a true crime reader for about 30 years lol. I am scared of what anyone would think if they see all the books I have read in my kindle.

Okay, i checked the CandyRose site and found a few other things.

Woodward: You've gone through a horrible time with your daughter's death. What does this break-in, even though you and the police think is unrelated, do for your self-confidence?

Ramsey: Well, I almost got him. (Laughter) He had about 25 years on me I think. It's a horrible invasion of your privacy and your feeling of safety. We certainly went through that with JonBenet. It certainly has resurfaced. Our house here is we think ultra-secure. Again he was able to bash down a door and just come in.

So it's very difficult to be safe when you have a person with a strong intent to violate your safety. And that's disturbing because we certainly were very focused in this house on security and safety and locks. Very few doors and heavy doors and heavy locks and yet he was able to just break them down.

Woodward: This was one of the reasons you renovated this house was to make this home more secure. Is that correct?

Ramsey: That's correct.

Woodward: And it didn't work?

Ramsey: It didn't work.

Woodward: How'd he get in?

Ramsey: Broke down a door in the basement. We were forced to put a door in the basement because it was a code requirement. We did not want a door in the basement, but we had to put one down there. And that was where he came in.

So he's blaming the housing codes with him being forced to have a door down in the basement. Wish the interviewer asked him why his security system didn't work unless he's implying that's why? I don't even know. At the very least he's implying the security precautions he had failed because he says this later when asked what else he can do - Ramsey: I don't know what. I really don't. Steel doors - I guess that's the next step up. I really don't know.

He mentions that he's black in the 911 call:

911: Somebody broke in?
John Ramsey: Yeah
911: Ok how did they get in?
John Ramsey: I don't know but I came home and they were here.
911: Ok they were there when you got there?
John Ramsey: Right
911: They were in your house?
John Ramsey: Yes
911: So were you able to get a description?
John Ramsey: Yes
911: Ok go ahead and give me a description
John Ramsey: It was a black man probably 6 foot

Everything Ramsey said was missing:

Transcribed by "Matt Causey" at Justice Watch Forums

Items missings:

1. A Compac Lap Top computer, with power adapter pulled out of the wall taken from second floor office area.

2. Two duffel bags, one kelly green canvas with "Nashville Jet" embodied on the side. The other was a black leather/vinyle gyme bad that said "Capitol City Club" on the side. The green bag was stuffed full and the black bag was about half full.

3. Jewelry from Patsy's Jewelry box was gone.

4. One small ring

5. One wedding "style" ring, flat wide band with a crest on top.

6. Burglar looked at the shot guns John Ramsey had but he didn't take any.

7. Burglar opened a gun safe located in Mr. Ramsey's dressing room closet. Mr. Ramsey said the safe was not locked.

8. A gray metal box containing personal papers and a white cardboard box containing white sheets of paper with the inscription in pink cursive "JonBenet" was also on the floor in front of the safe.

9. A 12 guage double barrel Parker shotgun, which was broken down in a leather carrying case, was also on the floor

10. Wallet described as alligator black shiny contained John Ramsey's Georgia driver's license, Blockbuster Video card, two VISA cards, one from Merrill Lynch, and an American Express and Rich's credit card plus $300 to $400 cash in wallet.

11. John Ramsey also said he was missing papers, namely aircraft logs that were in one of the bags that the suspect carried out.

Sounds like the FBI completely believed there was a break in, they mention finding fingerprints and tire tracks at the scene as well as finding a receipt and a shovel left to prop the door open, which would make sense since John allegedly interrupted the intruder. You'd think they'd have mentioned that all of this was John's or Patsy's if it was, surely he'd be charged with filing a false police report or there'd at least be an update. It honestly sounds like there was a break in as weird as it sounds, or it was an excellent coverup.

 

[Nadal]

I can't remember the names of murders etc where I have seen this done before. Sorry. I have been a true crime reader for about 30 years lol. I am scared of what anyone would think if they see all the books I have read in my kindle.

Yeah, i was just wondering because i've been reading about true crime for a long time too and i can't think of any examples of that. I'm sure there is examples but personally i don't think it's as common as you implied.

 

[kaykay543]

Okay, i checked the CandyRose site and found a few other things.

Woodward: You've gone through a horrible time with your daughter's death. What does this break-in, even though you and the police think is unrelated, do for your self-confidence?

Ramsey: Well, I almost got him. (Laughter) He had about 25 years on me I think. It's a horrible invasion of your privacy and your feeling of safety. We certainly went through that with JonBenet. It certainly has resurfaced. Our house here is we think ultra-secure. Again he was able to bash down a door and just come in.

So it's very difficult to be safe when you have a person with a strong intent to violate your safety. And that's disturbing because we certainly were very focused in this house on security and safety and locks. Very few doors and heavy doors and heavy locks and yet he was able to just break them down.

Woodward: This was one of the reasons you renovated this house was to make this home more secure. Is that correct?

Ramsey: That's correct.

Woodward: And it didn't work?

Ramsey: It didn't work.

Woodward: How'd he get in?

Ramsey: Broke down a door in the basement. We were forced to put a door in the basement because it was a code requirement. We did not want a door in the basement, but we had to put one down there. And that was where he came in.

So he's blaming the housing codes with him being forced to have a door down in the basement. Wish the interviewer asked him why his security system didn't work unless he's implying that's why? I don't even know. At the very least he's implying the security precautions he had failed because he says this later when asked what else he can do - Ramsey: I don't know what. I really don't. Steel doors - I guess that's the next step up. I really don't know.

He mentions that he's black in the 911 call:

911: Somebody broke in?
John Ramsey: Yeah
911: Ok how did they get in?
John Ramsey: I don't know but I came home and they were here.
911: Ok they were there when you got there?
John Ramsey: Right
911: They were in your house?
John Ramsey: Yes
911: So were you able to get a description?
John Ramsey: Yes
911: Ok go ahead and give me a description
John Ramsey: It was a black man probably 6 foot

Everything Ramsey said was missing:

Transcribed by "Matt Causey" at Justice Watch Forums

Items missings:

1. A Compac Lap Top computer, with power adapter pulled out of the wall taken from second floor office area.

2. Two duffel bags, one kelly green canvas with "Nashville Jet" embodied on the side. The other was a black leather/vinyle gyme bad that said "Capitol City Club" on the side. The green bag was stuffed full and the black bag was about half full.

3. Jewelry from Patsy's Jewelry box was gone.

4. One small ring

5. One wedding "style" ring, flat wide band with a crest on top.

6. Burglar looked at the shot guns John Ramsey had but he didn't take any.

7. Burglar opened a gun safe located in Mr. Ramsey's dressing room closet. Mr. Ramsey said the safe was not locked.

8. A gray metal box containing personal papers and a white cardboard box containing white sheets of paper with the inscription in pink cursive "JonBenet" was also on the floor in front of the safe.

9. A 12 guage double barrel Parker shotgun, which was broken down in a leather carrying case, was also on the floor

10. Wallet described as alligator black shiny contained John Ramsey's Georgia driver's license, Blockbuster Video card, two VISA cards, one from Merrill Lynch, and an American Express and Rich's credit card plus $300 to $400 cash in wallet.

11. John Ramsey also said he was missing papers, namely aircraft logs that were in one of the bags that the suspect carried out.

Sounds like the FBI completely believed there was a break in, they mention finding fingerprints and tire tracks at the scene as well as finding a receipt and a shovel left to prop the door open, which would make sense since John allegedly interrupted the intruder. You'd think they'd have mentioned that all of this was John's or Patsy's if it was, surely he'd be charged with filing a false police report or there'd at least be an update. It honestly sounds like there was a break in as weird as it sounds, or it was an excellent coverup.

If you read them all you can see the one that points out all the holes in his story. I was watching this happen in real time, so its a bit different than reading about years later. But to each their own! I have never believed it.

I would also never believe anything about a Woodward interview with JR. She was always in his back pocket.

 

[Newbie97]

There are some plausible elements in your theory, but also some major problems that I think disprove it.

Basically, if JBR was the favored child, and BR was the black sheep, then there's no way PR or JR would have finished off JBR just to protect Burke. And no, JBR was *not* "truly" dead when she was strangled. She was still alive, with a pulse. And therefore, any sane parent who cared about her, whatever their concern with appearances, would've simply called 911 and/or taken her to the ER. Not strangled and sexually violated her. Which would, of course, have looked far worse if it was uncovered. With high odds of that happening.

Also, the Boulder cops didn't give the Ramseys a pass at all. Rather they, like the public, seemed to suspect them more because of their affluence and status. Even though there was no real basis for such suspicion initially. The more educated/successful prosecutors, on the other hand, realized the case was weak/dubious, and therefore never prosecuted them.

 

[borndem]

I'm so sorry if I upset or offended you at all! I agree with you. I was simply trying to play devil's advocate and share my own feelings purely about the autopsy results and then relay my experiences... I can see how that might come off badly though. I think I'm being too clinical, it's a coping mechanism for me but I should be more mindful... at this point I'll definitely refrain from sharing any more thought on this specific issue, I think my own background is clouding my ability to speak well and respectfully about it. I wouldn't dream at all of minimizing her struggles and all I've ever wanted to do when talking here is to bring attention to her tragedy and advocate for her, so honestly, thank you for calling out the issues in my post.

thank you for being respectful and for your input!

Don't give it another thought, @angelevie -- many articles, books, etc., have similar details, and it does have to do with physical evidence, discussions, opinions, etc. Just keep on keepin' on, as they say.

 

[Tobiano8th]

i haven't read entire thread but i've read alot of earlier stuff in here.

seems that there's alot of conjecture that isn't properly labelled as such........ is PR relationship with BR highly documented somewhere? i've read alot of books and blogs on this subject and i'm inclined to say "no"

i see the comment that with accidental head wound (the overwhelming most popular theory) the R's could take her to the hospital..... i agree totally. so why not? PR completely overwhelmed is not thinking straight? hiding prior sexual abuse?

i've recently dove back into this and read some new books.... didn't realize that many RDI advocates think JR's involvement starts with PR's discovery of ransom note? assuming i have inferred that correctly

such a strange case......... no theory makes much sense

 

[Swirlz]

hiding prior sexual abuse?

Bingo.

 

[Tobiano8th]

couldn't the sexual abuse have been some older friend of BR......... or would kids not break the hymen?

would PR cover for JR?......... sadly, i'd say maybe "yes"........ i hate the whole world of "appearances". it's leads to possibilities like this..

JR seems like such a good person.........

 

[Swirlz]

She was sexually assaulted on the night of the homicide. No one was in the house that night except the four people who lived there.

Women lie for and remain loyal to abusers all the time.

Bill Cosby seemed like a good person. So did Jerry Sandusky.

 

[Tobiano8th]

wasn't the sexual assault on the night of the homicide more like staging?. not that that isn't demented in itself

i agree that there is ZERO EVIDENCE of anyone else having been in that house.......

 

[David Rogers]

Bingo.

Yes. This could have happened days, or weeks prior. The adult Dr Seuss book in a suitcase with a semen stained blanket looks like grooming. Don’t you think it odd that JB says she doesn’t feel pretty at the same party the hang up 911 call is made and the police are waved away?

 

[HMSHood]

Looking at Patsy Ramsey, she is a person who is obsessed with social status and will do anything for it. She is a social climber, ala Betty Broderick, Lori Drew or Wanda Holloway. Something about John Ramsey is just off about him.