Another theory

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Goody said:
Jeana's friend has made it clear that he isn't going to change hiis mind so I didn't see any need to address his comments again. You have changed your mind about this in the last few months, haven't you? I thought you were of the mind that she was sociopathic. Sorry if I misunderstood your position.
No apologies luv
No, never sociopath. I have always felt she presents with Narcissistic and Histrionic PD. She has many of the symptoms of each. I am not saying she has one or both, but she does have symptoms. So you misunderstood which personality disorder I think she leans towards. No one will ever convince me she is a sociopath.
You're right about Jeana's friend, no need to wrestle with it, is there? I'm glad you see what I've been trying to say..thank you
 
justice2 said:
Symptons, definitions, diagnosis. Can't follow what you are saying here.
Are you saying you don't understand the meaning of these words? I'm following Goody's suggestion to just leave it be.
 
Mary456 said:
The wedding dress on the living room sofa is another one of CWB's "special effects", beesy (like his overlay bootprints that didn't exist). It's State's exhibit 15-B, and Walling was asked if there was anything out of order in the formal living room. His answer was "no". I don't think he and all the other officers would have missed a big, white wedding gown lying across the couch.

There's no testimony - none at all - about a wedding dress in the living room. CWB invented it to support Darlie's story that she and Darin were lovebirds, and couldn't wait to renew their wedding vows.

I don't know what that white thing is on the sofa (or even if there is a white thing on the sofa), but it definitely isn't a wedding dress...at least, there is no testimony to support it.
I know Chris loves to tell a tale, but there is something white and poofy there(MTJD, State's Ex 15-B) What could it be? While describing Cron's first complete walk through, Patricia Springer writes
a white wedding gown carefully draped over a red brocade sofa..........seemed strange to Cron
Flesh and Blood: Patricia Springer, page 64.

So I always took for granted that it was there, but not for the bull answer Chris gave. As Jeana said, no woman, dieting or not, gets sized 4 months ahead. Why would he decide to call it a wedding dress if it wasn't? And that's a state's exhibit. As I said, I never believed the story, but now I wonder why dress was chosen as the blob of foo foo on the sofa. I mean I understand why he turned it into a re-new their vows story, but if the blob is nothing more than a curtain or sheet, why did he make it a wedding a dress? That's why I believe that there really was a wedding dress on the sofa.
 
Goody said:
Thanks.

The wedding dress could be significant, I guess, I just never gave it much thought/ It does connect with Darin's statements to the therapist after the crime about Darlie having problems with the kids and them not beiing able to run around in the nude anymore. Maybe the marriage meant more to her than I have given it credit before.
I think her marriage did mean a lot to her. I just think she believed she could treat him anyway she wanted and he'd always want her. This is could account for the level of depression/desperation/panic she fell into when/if she lost control of him.
 
Today, on a Court tv program, a guy was talking about how many times it takes to actually kill someone by stabbing and that is why most people are stabbed so many times. I think Darlie planned the murders and that both boys have wounds that are similar. It looks to me like Darlie knew where to stab and had to end up stabbing one of the boys in another pre planned set of wounds. Her wounds even seem to have the same pattern.
 
txsvicki said:
Today, on a Court tv program, a guy was talking about how many times it takes to actually kill someone by stabbing and that is why most people are stabbed so many times. I think Darlie planned the murders and that both boys have wounds that are similar. It looks to me like Darlie knew where to stab and had to end up stabbing one of the boys in another pre planned set of wounds. Her wounds even seem to have the same pattern.


You're exactly right. There's no doubt, from looking at all of the wounds of the three individuals injured that the person doing the stabbing knew EXACTLY where on the body to inflict the most damage. Which is why Darlie's claim that she was the intended victim makes absolutely no sense. If the person who attacked Darlie wanted her dead, she'd be dead. There's no doubt that the person knew the areas of the body to do the job.
 
Jeana (DP) said:
You're exactly right. There's no doubt, from looking at all of the wounds of the three individuals injured that the person doing the stabbing knew EXACTLY where on the body to inflict the most damage. Which is why Darlie's claim that she was the intended victim makes absolutely no sense. If the person who attacked Darlie wanted her dead, she'd be dead. There's no doubt that the person knew the areas of the body to do the job.
Very good point. Even if he thought he had cut her throat deep enough to kill her, she got up and went after him without screaming for Darin. The attacker knew then that he had not killed her. And since she had not called for help he had no reason to run away. You hear kilers say they were surprised their victims continued to fight. Unlike Darlie's attacker, they do not knowingly leave a living victim. Humans do not want to die. If given the chance, we will fight to the death. Look at Colette MacDonald.
 
beesy said:
Very good point. Even if he thought he had cut her throat deep enough to kill her, she got up and went after him without screaming for Darin. The attacker knew then that he had not killed her. And since she had not called for help he had no reason to run away. You hear kilers say they were surprised their victims continued to fight. Unlike Darlie's attacker, they do not knowingly leave a living victim. Humans do not want to die. If given the chance, we will fight to the death. Look at Colette MacDonald.


That's just it Beesy. If the person who left the wounds on Darlie wanted her dead, he would have plunged the knife deep into her chest as was done with the boys. The fact that she ended up with a scratch instead of a deep penetrating wound proves that Darlie was never the intended target.
 
I'm glad you see what I've been trying to say..thank you
by beesy


In case you took my sarcasm as beesy being a smart butt, I meant thanks for letting me clear it up!
 
beesy said:
by beesy


In case you took my sarcasm as beesy being a smart butt, I meant thanks for letting me clear it up!
No problem
 
Just adding my occasional opinions and questions. I also agree that Darlie has lots of the symptoms of a personality disorder. Has anyone seen any data on whether these things show up as a child or not? It would seem that the really dramatic and odd behavior would show up as a teen and on into adulthood where more and more stress of living happens. On the other hand, couldn't Darlie also be a psychopath since she dared to go ahead and plan the murders of the kids and also has everyone in her family believing her? I am sort of a differing opinion because I believe that Darlie planned the murders for at least a month and that the diary entry did not necessarily mean that she planned to kill herself but was going to kill the boys. I think she purposely allowed them to sleep on the floor downstairs and got them to sleep first. If Darlie were going to kill herself also, she could have done it easily and surely wouldn't have stabbed her arm to make it look like an assault. It could have been planned down to the necklace being on her neck to stop the knife from going in too deeply to the bad arm bruising and missing panties. Of course, being so dramatic, Darlie really did mess up with her staging and statements because she couldn't help herself.
 
tsviki said:
Just adding my occasional opinions and questions. I also agree that Darlie has lots of the symptoms of a personality disorder. Has anyone seen any data on whether these things show up as a child or not? It would seem that the really dramatic and odd behavior would show up as a teen and on into adulthood where more and more stress of living happens. On the other hand, couldn't Darlie also be a psychopath since she dared to go ahead and plan the murders of the kids and also has everyone in her family believing her? I am sort of a differing opinion because I believe that Darlie planned the murders for at least a month and that the diary entry did not necessarily mean that she planned to kill herself but was going to kill the boys. I think she purposely allowed them to sleep on the floor downstairs and got them to sleep first. If Darlie were going to kill herself also, she could have done it easily and surely wouldn't have stabbed her arm to make it look like an assault. It could have been planned down to the necklace being on her neck to stop the knife from going in too deeply to the bad arm bruising and missing panties. Of course, being so dramatic, Darlie really did mess up with her staging and statements because she couldn't help herself.
I think most people begin showing signs of PD's during their late teens to early 20's. They are difficult to diagnose because of the overlapping symptoms and because most of us have some of the symptoms of every PD. But it's how many symptoms one has that tips the scales. And people can have PD's and not be killers or even criminals. They might have a hard time keeping friends, jobs, romantic relationships, etc. Darlie began showing symptoms of NPD and HPD around that period. :twocents:
I think Darlie had been thinking that her life and marriage would be better without the boys for a long time. But I don't think she actually planned it out, just maybe thought it'd be nice. She might have thought of stabbing them while they slept, but I think everything came together that night for her to stop fantasizing about it and really do it. I don't think she meant to be a victim though. I'm not even sure if that crossed her mind, but once she was injured she had to be.
The other symptoms of sociopath are why I don't think she is. Unless, there are stories about Darlie stealing and whoring around, stuff like that, I don't think she fits enough of the symptoms. I also think she has some capacity to care about a few others besides her self. Sociopaths are not always killers either. A ruthless business person who hoards every cent and steps on or sleeps with whoever is in his way, could be a sociopath.
 
I would like to get back to focusing on what I believe caused the murders of the two children. I think to understand the two murders, we have to know: (1) what we are looking at and (2) what we are looking for. As I have indicated previously, I believe that what we are looking at is a jealous rage killing, which is a killing that will have less stab wounds than the more common type of rage killing, a homicidal rage killing. I say that because of all the murders I have read about, this one has about the fewest stab wounds I have ever come across. I think I have also indicated that the overturned vacuum cleaner, the smashed wine glass, and the sock in the alley were all done to try and make the crime look like it had an economic motive (an "interrupted burglary") and is staging, while the real crime had a personal motive, the stabbing of the two boys.

That brings us to what we are looking for. Given the relatively few number of stab wounds and the fact that despite a homicidal maniac allegedly being lose, there are no shots to the heads of either Damon, Devon, or Darlie, I have concluded that the assailant did not specifically intend to kill the murder victims, but was in a great deal of emotional pain and was trying inflict pain upon them. I believe rage is involved here, but a much more transient sort of rage than you find in a homicidal rage, which usually involves a large number of stab wounds. That is one of the most puzzling aspects of this case: if the assailant was so angry, why did that anger dissipate relatively rapidly? My conclusion on that point is that we are looking for a rage trigger (or as the former FBI crime scene analyst John Douglas called it "a stressor") that is not centered around the two children, but is somewhere else. In this regard, I think we need to understand two things about Darlie: she believes in her own mind that she is a world-class manipulator and her greatest fear was returning to that impoverished childhood. I also believe that on the morning of June 6, 1996, having pressed Darin for a week over getting money for the tickets to travel in the upcoming days and weeks, Darlie brought out the atomic bomb in her arsenal of manipulation: "I think we need to separate." Although that almost always worked, this time it backfired on her because Darin, who could not get the money and who had his back to the wall financially told her, "fine and don't come back." I think Darlie did a slow burn thinking about how her best manipulative trick blew up in her face and how she was going to have to go back and live with her mother. I believe that is when the emotional pain overwhelmed her--we have to remember that she has no coping skills since her parents never taught her any and she never developed any on her own outside of manipulating people to get what she wants--and exploded on to the two happy residents of Nintendo House.

Other people have indicated that they believe the motive was money, which I think was a backdrop but not the reason for the murders themselves, that Darlie got tired of raising the children, or I guess what would be the official reason, listed on her death penalty information sheet, that the two children were interfering with her lifestyle. My opinion is that none of those reasons would have caused the explosion of knife thrusts we see here because they are too general and are not reasons that one person would thrust a knife into another person four times and a second person six times (according to the autopsy reports). Instead, I was looking for some unexpected bombshell that fell on a person with no coping mechanism and the only thing I could find was the argument that Darlie and Darin had shortly before the two children were stabbed.

In any event, if people disagree, that's fine, but what I am curious to understand is the contradiction we see here: an obviously angry assailant who nevertheless had that anger dissipate rather rapidly to the point of only stabbing the children only a total of ten times. Don't get me wrong, I would not like to be stabbed like that, but in Illinois they are considering parole for a woman, who, with her lover, stabbed the woman's brother in 1976 a total of 87 times (the Patricia Columbo case). If Darlie meant to kill the two children, why do we see so few stab wounds and none to the head, so that she could have finished them off relatively easily?
 
Jeana (DP) said:
....there are no shots to the heads of either Damon, Devon, or Darlie, I have concluded that the assailant did not specifically intend to kill the murder victims, but was in a great deal of emotional pain......

......If Darlie meant to kill the two children, why do we see so few stab wounds and none to the head, so that she could have finished them off relatively easily?
IMO - she was aiming right where she knew she would do the most damage with the fewest number of stabs (chest/lungs/heart) and, she did not want their faces disfigured - looks mean A LOT to Darlie - the boys' wounds are easily covered by clothing in the casket; but, her neck would is easily seen, almost "displayed" - "look at me, I am a victim..."; there are times when I think she started out with the intent of only harming them - to manipulate and get attention as she had done in the past...but once she started she realized it is not easy to stab a sleeping child and not have that child wake up and see who is doing the stabbing - her own plan backfired on her.

I am interested in reading your thoughts/theories on whether Darin had any involvement.
 
sharkeyes said:
IMO - she was aiming right where she knew she would do the most damage with the fewest number of stabs (chest/lungs/heart) and, she did not want their faces disfigured - looks mean A LOT to Darlie - the boys' wounds are easily covered by clothing in the casket; but, her neck would is easily seen, almost "displayed" - "look at me, I am a victim..."; there are times when I think she started out with the intent of only harming them - to manipulate and get attention as she had done in the past...but once she started she realized it is not easy to stab a sleeping child and not have that child wake up and see who is doing the stabbing - her own plan backfired on her.

I am interested in reading your thoughts/theories on whether Darin had any involvement.


Just wanted to reiterate that I'm not writing these opinions, but am posting for someone who cannot. I'll send along your post and will definately post any reply given.
 
Jeana (DP) said:
Just wanted to reiterate that I'm not writing these opinions, but am posting for someone who cannot. I'll send along your post and will definately post any reply given.
Thanks! I am very interested in his thoughts on Darin.....
 
sharkeyes said:
Thanks! I am very interested in his thoughts on Darin.....


Here's the answer:

My opinion is that Darin was an accessory after the fact, that he helped with the staging. I don't know that Darin knew that Darlie would explode like she did. Let's remember that after that "suicidal thoughts" episode in early May, Darin sat with her and talked to her, but did not get her the professional help she obviously needed. Some people have asked why Darin didn't turn Darlie in after the two murders. My thought is that he only had a matter of a few moments to decide what he was going to do and he chose to stand by Darlie for whatever reason. To me, the goal of "Team Routier" (Darlie and Darin) the whole time has been to walk away from this mess and get on with their lives. As for the location of the stab wounds, we may never know exactly why the two children were stabbed where they were stabbed, but to me, the goal appears to have been to inflict pain rather than specifically to kill. I don't think Darlie was doing enough thinking to decide how to stab them so they would look good in their caskets; rather, I think she was on emotional pain overload from some unexpected bombshell and that this is a "why don't you feel my pain" type of stabbing. The stabbing was just barely enough to kill the second child and there are some times I wonder how Darlie would have responded if he had survived and said, "Mommy stabbed me."
 
Jeana (DP) said:
Here's the answer:

My opinion is that Darin was an accessory after the fact, that he helped with the staging. I don't know that Darin knew that Darlie would explode like she did. Let's remember that after that "suicidal thoughts" episode in early May, Darin sat with her and talked to her, but did not get her the professional help she obviously needed.

I wonder how Darlie would have responded if he had survived and said, "Mommy stabbed me."
Would you consider the possibility that Darlie initially wanted this to be a "murder/suicide" in which she chickened out?

I am convinced that had one of those boys survived to tell the tale, Darlie would have implicated Darrin.



 
Jeana (DP) said:
Here's the answer:

My opinion is that Darin was an accessory after the fact, that he helped with the staging. I don't know that Darin knew that Darlie would explode like she did. Let's remember that after that "suicidal thoughts" episode in early May, Darin sat with her and talked to her, but did not get her the professional help she obviously needed. Some people have asked why Darin didn't turn Darlie in after the two murders. My thought is that he only had a matter of a few moments to decide what he was going to do and he chose to stand by Darlie for whatever reason. To me, the goal of "Team Routier" (Darlie and Darin) the whole time has been to walk away from this mess and get on with their lives. As for the location of the stab wounds, we may never know exactly why the two children were stabbed where they were stabbed, but to me, the goal appears to have been to inflict pain rather than specifically to kill. I don't think Darlie was doing enough thinking to decide how to stab them so they would look good in their caskets; rather, I think she was on emotional pain overload from some unexpected bombshell and that this is a "why don't you feel my pain" type of stabbing. The stabbing was just barely enough to kill the second child and there are some times I wonder how Darlie would have

I see it entirely different, Jeana. I see the stabbings as a deliberate, methodical attack meant to kill. I don't think she ever considered their pain. I think she was so detached emotionally that she just did what she had to do to get the job done. The question for me is what motivated her to do it. I have a hard time seeing either one of these people in the emotional throlls you describe. Patsy Ramsey fell apart emotionally. Guilty or not, the reality of JB's death tore her up. I just don't see any of that in the Routiers and that tells me that they feel justified or have come to some kind of terms with it long before it actually went down.
 

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