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I thought "embalming fluid"?? I had not heard that before...

Months ago, I stated that I felt the McCanns embalmed Madeleine...and was about laughed, (and thrown off) the board.

The way I see it , it is the only way they could have moved her so many days later without the total stench and decay that comes with decomp. I don't care how callus the McCanns are, I don't think anyone could handle a decaying corps of their child, (no matter if they killed her or not)
 
Months ago, I stated that I felt the McCanns embalmed Madeleine...and was about laughed, (and thrown off) the board.

The way I see it , it is the only way they could have moved her so many days later without the total stench and decay that comes with decomp. I don't care how callus the McCanns are, I don't think anyone could handle a decaying corps of their child, (no matter if they killed her or not)

Hi IW,

I remember having a discussion with another poster about embalming (via PM) and we were trying to figure out how they might have aquired embalming fluid. We did find reference on the 'net that indicated you could use windshield washer fluid. There is a chemical....I could look it up again if necessary.

Anyway, I am curious about your take on the subject. Any idea how or where they might have aquired the fluid? Keep in mind that a purchase of such fluid anywhere close to PDL would probably have been found by the PJ. Maybe they drove a long distance to buy it? Or they used something that might work to embalm (like the winsdhield washer fluid)?

What do you think?
 
Hi IW,

I remember having a discussion with another poster about embalming (via PM) and we were trying to figure out how they might have aquired embalming fluid. We did find reference on the 'net that indicated you could use windshield washer fluid. There is a chemical....I could look it up again if necessary.

Anyway, I am curious about your take on the subject. Any idea how or where they might have aquired the fluid? Keep in mind that a purchase of such fluid anywhere close to PDL would probably have been found by the PJ. Maybe they drove a long distance to buy it? Or they used something that might work to embalm (like the winsdhield washer fluid)?

What do you think?

I think they brought it with them...or something usable such as mineral spirits or acetone containing nail polish remover. (Which are fairly common house hold items, especially for those who do their own home improvements such as painting or staining.) These items could very possibly been found in a storage closet of a Beach Apartment because of the constant need to repaint. Formaldehyde is the main ingredient in embalming fluid, as well as several other solvents. Fingernail polish remover would be my first guess with possibly a mixure of several solvents, if it was anything other than prepared embalming fluid.

I also read somewhere that Epsom salts, (magnesium sulfate) has been used.

I'm one of the few who actually believe they premeditated this entire tragedy before they ever left home.

It would be nice to know if this poster really knows these things, or just more rumor.
 
One more thing I might add...there has been some talk that maybe the Tapas group dabbled in drug usage, (I don't know if it;s true or not). When I was reading up on Embalming fluid it seems the big craze now is to dip a cigarette or marijuana joint in embalming fluid. It's called a "wet". I don't know why they call it a wet, because they let it dry first...LOL Must make a crazy (and sometimes violent) high. Poormans PCP. Maybe it's not all that hard to get...ya know what I mean??
 
I think they brought it with them...or something usable such as mineral spirits or acetone containing nail polish remover. (Which are fairly common house hold items, especially for those who do their own home improvements such as painting or staining.) These items could very possibly been found in a storage closet of a Beach Apartment because of the constant need to repaint. Formaldehyde is the main ingredient in embalming fluid, as well as several other solvents. Fingernail polish remover would be my first guess with possibly a mixure of several solvents, if it was anything other than prepared embalming fluid.

I also read somewhere that Epsom salts, (magnesium sulfate) has been used.

I'm one of the few who actually believe they premeditated this entire tragedy before they ever left home.

It would be nice to know if this poster really knows these things, or just more rumor.

Yea, the rumor is the part of this whole stinkin' case that is the most frustrating. It is so different than what we are used to in the USA with freedom of information and a tenacious press. We would have so much more information that would be known fact, if it had happened here.

I think that because of all the conjecture and rumor and amateur sleuthing that has gone on all these months, when we find out what really happened, we are going to be completely shocked. No matter what we believe....

As far as the drugs, anything is possible. I do know that doctors tend to have high rates of drug abuse and dependence issues. Mostly because of ease of access. I do not think the McCanns are all sweetness and light like they try to portray themselves. I have always "felt" something sinister just underneath the surface. It was what made me doubt them in the first place.

I know you have talked about pre-meditation and that has always been hard for me to wrap my brain around. Probably because of the image they put out there is so far removed from pre-meditated murder of a girl child. I could go search your old posts but, tell me again, why would they want to murder her? Do you think others of the T9 know? Does Clarence know?
 
...snip...
I know you have talked about pre-meditation and that has always been hard for me to wrap my brain around. Probably because of the image they put out there is so far removed from pre-meditated murder of a girl child. I could go search your old posts but, tell me again, why would they want to murder her? Do you think others of the T9 know? Does Clarence know?

I think Madeleine had a problem. High functioning Autism/severe ADHD, health problems, or something of the like that is non-curable, and life long. I don't think it played into their "plan" of a perfect family, and knew if they gave her up, (put her in an institution) it would look bad on them socially. The only way to make them look good, and get rid of the problem was to euthanize her and stage an abduction. I think at least 1 of the group knows she dead, but are also being conned, and made to believe it's something other than it really is. I think who ever knows is being blackmailed and can never tell what they know. How's that for a theory?? :eek:
 
I feel like I have landed in an episode of the "Twilight Zone".Embalmed her with nail polish remover?:eek: Dont you think someone might have noticed the smell? Or the fact they were taking/buying bucket loads of the stuff? When are they are supposed to have carried out the embalming? Perhaps they all took in turns to pour a bit into her when they were doing the checks :rolleyes:
 
I think Madeleine had a problem. High functioning Autism/severe ADHD, health problems, or something of the like that is non-curable, and life long. I don't think it played into their "plan" of a perfect family, and knew if they gave her up, (put her in an institution) it would look bad on them socially. The only way to make them look good, and get rid of the problem was to euthanize her and stage an abduction. I think at least 1 of the group knows she dead, but are also being conned, and made to believe it's something other than it really is. I think who ever knows is being blackmailed and can never tell what they know. How's that for a theory?? :eek:

And absolutely no one either in the McCanns circle in the UK or at the holiday creche noticed these conditions? Riiiight.:rolleyes:
 
And absolutely no one either in the McCanns circle in the UK or at the holiday creche noticed these conditions? Riiiight.:rolleyes:


With all due respect Daffodil, it appears that if embalming took place (as per the poster inwhich was linked to this thread stated ) it was at the barn where they found the other evidence, and as far as a condition Madeleine might have had...well, we don't know, for no one is talking except for Kate who said she was a handfull and cried for her first 18 months of life....exactly like my autistic child did at that age.

Oh, and at Madeleine's size it would have only taken about 2 liters at most for embalming...not buckets. A plastic 2 liter bottle of soda could have been easily replaced with supplies needed...and put into a suit case under the name of 7-up.
 
And just when did they travel to this barn? Was Madeleines blood found there? Just when are they supposed to have had the time to do this?
 
And just when did they travel to this barn? Was Madeleines blood found there? Just when are they supposed to have had the time to do this?
You must have overlooked this one. Check out the bold print several paragraphs down, (but remember to read it all) then refer back to the link above which re-opened the embalming theory. This was orginally posted by Pickle.


El Mundo, Lunes 3 de Diciembre de 2007
‘Caso Maddie’ : se estrecha el cerco

The World, Wednesday December 3, 2007

'Case Maddie': the siege narrows

The wire tapping involving Gerry McCann and also Russell O'Brien, which would become suspect

LONDON - Seven months after the night he disappeared mysteriously Madeleine McCann his bed, police Portuguese seemed closer than ever to solving the case, which so much ink and money has caused. After a surprise visit to Elderby, Police Headquarters Leicestershire (UK), which depend Kate and Gerry McCann, the Portuguese authorities are preparing to return to question a group of nine British are at the heart of the mystery.

After cooperating with the British authorities, the Portuguese Judicial Police will be required to travel to England the next few weeks, with the aim of interrogating both Gerry and Kate McCann and seven of his friends with the parents of Maddie were having dinner the night of May 3.

The meeting Elderby between the Portuguese and British police in the presence of various specialists in forensics, served to reinforce the line of research equipment Paulo Rebelo continues since last July and which led to consider as arguidos ( suspects) marriage McCann.

The Portuguese Judicial Police still suspecting that Kate and Gerry McCann hid the body of her daughter, Madeleine, and simulated his abduction. A broad allegation that two other suspects, Robert and Russell Murat O'Brien. Contrary to what many thought so far, the Judicial Police has in its possession more evidence that simple DNA analysis.

According to various testimonies, available, for example, from the list of telephone calls made by the marriage McCann and his friends, and known also as the recipients of those calls and, in some cases, the exact content of the talks conducted by all members of the group.

The call that most intrigo the Portuguese police took place on June 10 between Russell O'Brien and Gerry McCann. The father of Maddie assure initially to the police that the call had been made from a location four kilometers from Ocean Club. However, listening to the calls and triangulating antennas enabled the Portuguese police, in collaboration with technicians British verify that such claims were false.

The place from where the call was made and the content of the signs are missing and the police want to explore in interrogations, which could lead to the rapid location of the body of Madeleine.

The triangulation of calls has enabled the police discovered an abandoned barn, where there was a towel stained with blood and debris from the trunk of Renault Scénic rented by McCann.

In addition, several videos and various photographs are part of the summary, particularly some showing that Murat already knew the group members. Aside from the strange coincidence that Murat had been in Exeter, where residents then Russell O'Brien and Jane Tanner, the police received from his British colleagues various elements that can prove that Gerry McCann and Robert Murat had already been seen and spoken on several occasions, even before the McCann travel to Praia da Luz.

A source close to the Attorney can confirm that there is sufficient evidence, regardless of the DNA test, to make formal accusations. But that decision was taken only after the interrogation, and near the end of the period after which the summary of the case ceases to be secret.

With the strengthening of the line of the investigation and the suspicions of the police on the Portuguese McCann, investigators have eight months to concluís content. From that moment, the process is made public, according to the new penal code Portuguese.

The situation of Robert Murat, Gerry and Kate could therefore worsen. Indeed, Murat was declared a suspect or arguido on May 14 and, therefore, his eight-month period ending in January. Marriage McCann was declared a suspect on September 7, which, in his case, the term expiring in May.
 
I still don't think it was a premeditated act, however, I can see the "by any means necessary" line of thought meaning that if any chemical was on hand that would stop decomposing, they'd use it. Not a full stage embalming, of course. But any means by intelligent and educated people to accomplish their goal--again, thinking that their child was lost due to an accident, but they could now lose everything else--

That doesn't see so far out to me.

Desperate is the key word here.
 
I'll have to correct myself, because I am certainly no expert on UK air travel. I know in the US, even shampoo bottles are now checked, so the thought of them taking it with them is probably very inaccurate.
 
I still don't think it was a premeditated act, however, I can see the "by any means necessary" line of thought meaning that if any chemical was on hand that would stop decomposing, they'd use it. Not a full stage embalming, of course. But any means by intelligent and educated people to accomplish their goal--again, thinking that their child was lost due to an accident, but they could now lose everything else--

That doesn't see so far out to me.

Desperate is the key word here.

Agreed, desperate people do desperate (and often stupid) things!
 
In order to embalm someone, you have to empty the blood, right? I remember thinking, as Doctors, the McCanns would have the skill to do this and by using a syringe and tube could have bled Maddie out into the tub or something, very easy to clean up. However, I would think that the police would have checked the piping. I know here in the US, LE often looks at plumbing fixtures and drains when blood is an issue.

If they did such a thing at the barn - where did the blood go?

I feel terrible just typing this. I absolutely can not wrap my brain around a premediated murder here. Nor do I believe that all 7 of the other holiday makers know what really happened.

Here's a thought based on some other comments made earlier today. What if Kate and Murat were having an affair and Maddie saw something? Maybe that's why Gerry asked Dr. Payne to check in on Kate when Gerry was playing tennis.

I mean seriously, does anyone here have a husband (or wife) that is in the habit of asking other men (or woman) to stop by and check on you because you're having a hard time with the kids? Get Real. There was a reason for that check!

Maybe Gerry is now holding it against Kate to keep her home!

Salem
 
I'll have to correct myself, because I am certainly no expert on UK air travel. I know in the US, even shampoo bottles are now checked, so the thought of them taking it with them is probably very inaccurate.

I think it would be fairly easy to acquire the necessary chemicals. The windshield washer fluid is a good example. You can buy that (in gallon jugs) at the grocery store. And no one would think anything suspicious about that type of purchase.

I think it is important to consider all theories and then try to determine if they are feasible or impossible. What other choice do we have?

I know that some would rather we just went away and never suggested a controversial theory for discussion but, I thought that was what websleuths was for. My theories may be one-sided but so are the others.

So, back to it. IW, what do you suppose that they would have done with an embalmed body? Is it buried at the barn site? When would it have been moved? I still think the idea of moving a decomposing body of your child would be extremely difficult. Do you remember the "stomach flu" that GM developed that put off the trip to Huelva? Could that be connected to this possible move? Pretty freakin' amazing if they did do something like that and "got away with it".
 
In order to embalm someone, you have to empty the blood, right? I remember thinking, as Doctors, the McCanns would have the skill to do this and by using a syringe and tube could have bled Maddie out into the tub or something, very easy to clean up. However, I would think that the police would have checked the piping. I know here in the US, LE often looks at plumbing fixtures and drains when blood is an issue.

If they did such a thing at the barn - where did the blood go?

I feel terrible just typing this. I absolutely can not wrap my brain around a premediated murder here. Nor do I believe that all 7 of the other holiday makers know what really happened.

Here's a thought based on some other comments made earlier today. What if Kate and Murat were having an affair and Maddie saw something? Maybe that's why Gerry asked Dr. Payne to check in on Kate when Gerry was playing tennis.

I mean seriously, does anyone here have a husband (or wife) that is in the habit of asking other men (or woman) to stop by and check on you because you're having a hard time with the kids? Get Real. There was a reason for that check!

Maybe Gerry is now holding it against Kate to keep her home!

Salem

I hear you Salem...that "check" never made sense to me. Either it never happened or it makes no sense.

If my husband asked his friend to come "check on me"...I would be pi$$ed.

I thought that perhaps after the "accident" GM told KM that he had to "keep up appearances or normality" so he would be heading off to the tennis courts. He left KM to clean up, remember the bleach and the pristine condition of the apartment? He was worried that she would not be able to "maintain" and send DP around, just in case. If DP had returned and told him that KM was frantic he would have had to return. KM proved to be more of an icicle that even GM thought possible. She certainly lived up to that rep in the following days....
 
But..... could Gerry have risked DP showing up while Kate was still cleaning up? How would Kate have explained that?

What do you think about the "accident" actually happening on May 2nd? I wonder if any of the Tapa7 can recall actually seeing Maddie on May 3rd? I know there is the staff at the creche, but because they saw Maddie everyday maybe they just thought she was there, when she really wasn't it?

Salem
 
snip...
So, back to it. IW, what do you suppose that they would have done with an embalmed body? Is it buried at the barn site? When would it have been moved? I still think the idea of moving a decomposing body of your child would be extremely difficult. Do you remember the "stomach flu" that GM developed that put off the trip to Huelva? Could that be connected to this possible move? Pretty freakin' amazing if they did do something like that and "got away with it".

I really don't know....BUT, It took me a little over 15 minutes to find out more than I would ever need to know about preserving a body by doing a google search on Embalming. One thing that really stood out was an article about a murder victim that was wrapped in a carpet and then a plastic bag and was placed in a concrete storage unit...three years later the body was in almost perfect condition. If I, a book keeper in Nebraska, could figure it out, I'm sure a couple of educated UK medical doctors could figure it out!

My guess is they found a place to store her and then found some poor fool to bury her without really knowing what they were doing...Where? Who knows, maybe in their own back yard.
 
But..... could Gerry have risked DP showing up while Kate was still cleaning up? How would Kate have explained that?

What do you think about the "accident" actually happening on May 2nd? I wonder if any of the Tapa7 can recall actually seeing Maddie on May 3rd? I know there is the staff at the creche, but because they saw Maddie everyday maybe they just thought she was there, when she really wasn't it?

Salem

I think it is entirely possible Salem. I have seen theories that involve May 2nd when GM was called back to the apartment because Pamela Fenn had called Mark Warner Mgmt. to report Maddie crying for 2 hours. This may have been when the T9 went to Chaplin's for dinner. That has never been confirmed by any source we can be sure of though.

I have always believed that if she died at the hands of her parents, it was GM and a moment of anger. There have been reports of the nannies at the creche saying Maddie was there on May 3rd. This is another gray area.

Of course, there is the "last photo" which was supposedly taken on May 3rd.

Did you see these photos?

altarpic.jpg


*note this pic from the PDL church altar

Altar-noelbow.jpg


*note this close-up of the original and the altar pic above. In the original (large view here: http://tinyurl.com/2lfu2n ) you can clearly see GM's elbow very close to Maddie's head.

So, where is the elbow in the altar pic. :waitasec:

Lots more here: http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=9782
 
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