AR - Fully-Armed Sheriffs Remove 7 Homeschool Children from 'Prepper' Family

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I would love to do some further reading, could you post or message the name of the book?

Just curious, is the family quiverfull?I believe they have some of the characteristics of the movement, such as homeschooling, using the rod, modesty, large family size, home churching.

I read a really interesting book about the movement, is it OK if I post the name? Or is it considered advertising?
 
People post names of books all the time. I'm curious about what book you're talking about.
 
Thank you for that interesting post. I have a number of points to make. The first is that I am not too concerned about the children in the snow. Children can be quite hardy. However, if the witness' claim that Stanley slapped one of his daughters is accurate, then I am quite worried. The reason is that I don't believe any parent should strike any child in the face, about the head, or shake any young child. These behaviors present risks to the developing brain. Depression, minimal brain damage, and frontal lobe damage may result.

I agree, the barefoot in the snow complaint, by itself could easily be dismissed as just a nosy neighbor with an agenda, although I don't quite buy the notion that it is a family tradition to photograph bare footprints in the snow. I did wonder, however, if being shut out of the house was being used as a punishment.

However, in addition to the reasons you suggest to be concerned about a blow to the head, is that this is specifically listed in the Arkansas child protection laws. There is no specific prohibition against using an instrument, nor anything about bare skin. So the spanking that Hal alludes to could fall anywhere along a continuum of open-hand on a clothed bottom to a paddle of some sort on a bare bottom. And the only determining factor would be the rather vague standard of whether the pain was more than transient or marks were lasting. And without an eye-witness, or pictoral evidence, these things would be very difficult to substantiate.
 
See below:



BBM. This is the party line about gag orders or confidentiality in juvenile cases. I understand that children have (or should have) privacy rights and that many would be upset to have personal details of their lives made public. I've fought on other threads about respecting the children's rights to privacy over the public's desire to know.

But this is a different case because it is about government action that threatens a family. So I think we have to balance the privacy rights of the children with the public need for transparency and for those subject to serious government actions which take away or threaten constitutional rights, like the rights to one's children, to be able to speak out and criticize that government action. Otherwise, what are we, Iran? North Korea?

As I said, I support children's rights to privacy but when their rights to their parents or vice versa are threatened, gagging the parents does not seem warranted.

And surely the PARENTS aren't going to be divulging abuse they inflicted on their kids. Further, the details of many kid's abuse is publicized in criminal cases. So, I really feel gag orders in these cases serve to protect government interests and not societal ones.

And that worries me greatly. And caveat, I think there is a lot of evidence that the Stanley abused their kids and I do not believe this family has been persecuted. It's not logical. But that is unimportant. Whether guilty or not, American citizens should all have the right to confront and call out the government. That's a key way of keeping the government in check.

Gitana--I think this is very difficult. Based on a few cases I have followed elsewhere, I am not certain that greater transparency as to specifics of cases necessarily leads to greater accountability on the part of government agencies, even though I share your concern. I would tend to move in the direction of greater transparency at the level of reporting data (# of reports taken, # of reports resulting in investigation, # of investigations resulting in removals, # of months spent in foster care prior to reunification or adoptive placement, etc), and particularly open reporting on details of children injured or dying while in care, etc.

However, I followed a couple of Florida cases (one actually a family case--that of Rifqa Bary; and the other the Trayvon Martin murder case), where there is an astonishingly (to my mind) open set of public records law, and I don't know that the end result is a good one. In the Bary case, the openness of the family court process, combined with their particular organization (Protective services are organized at a statewide, rather than county, level--making it easy to put political pressure on the Governor) really contributed to a circus. If you are not familiar with the Bary case, a teen from a Muslim family in Ohio ran away from home--allegedly to be able to practice Christianity. She was actually hidden from both her family and the authorities by a Florida minister until the FBI caught up with him. Multiple groups jumped on the bandwagon, including some cult-like Christian factions, some Muslim-hating organizations and individuals and some religio-political lobbying groups. Although legally a simple case--Florida had no jurisdiction and without the political pressure would have simply returned the teen to authorities in Ohio, where CPS agencies handle similar situations frequently. In that case, some of the very same people and organizations who are chanting about the persecution of Christians and supportive of the right of parents to determine their childrens' religious upbringing were absolutely opposed to the notion that a Muslim family should be upset about their daughter's baptism and frankly kidnapping by Christians.

Once the case did get to Ohio (after the state of Florida actually sent someone up to investigate whether Ohio was capable of providing adequate protection for this teen), the lobbying groups were very disappointed to discover that under Ohio's county-based system that throwing political dirt at the Governor got them nowhere. They were also disappointed that they did not have the same level of access to the courtroom as they had previously. Nonetheless, the teen in question completed high school online (in a foster family), and probably was exceedingly limited in her ability to have ongoing social contact due to her noteriety. Several years later, I hope she has changed her name and is able to live an anonymous life.

The Martin case was similar. All kinds of information was either available through legal means, or leaked. As a result, a minor homicide victim had school and other juvenile records published online, and to my mind it will always be an open question whether justice was available in the environment that was engendered as a result. It was frequently the case that the victim was the one on trial--in the public mind--and questions remain as to what the jury knew prior to trial and what they understood about their conviction options.

So--while I am far from a cheerleader when it comes to the actions of CPS, and particularly so in an environment of growing privatization of government services, I am not so certain that opening up case records is the way to go in building greater accountability.
 
They have always seemed high-handed to me and contradictory to our system of government. Of course the gag orders that judges in these cases may impose are not the same thing as CPS rules of confidentiality, are they? Do judges often issue such orders as an "adjunct" to CPS rules of confidentiality?

Also, I am wondering if a parent is publicly disparaging of his/her children during such an investigation, does CPS take that into account when determining whether these parents have the best interests of their children at heart. It has occurred to me that the Mr. and Mrs. Stanley may be damaging their own cause of be reunited with their children by some of their public statements. I have even wondered just what their lawyer is thinking in having them present their cause so publicly. Is the reunification of this family really the parents' goal? Is it really their attorney's goal? Could the goals of the parents and the attorney be at odds if someone else is paying the family's legal bills?

I don't know how often it happens, however, this case had gained a certain level of notoriety before it ever got to court, leading to the DHS statement regarding the MMS being on one of multiple factors. The playing field is pretty uneven going in. Officials cannot elaborate on details. The family, however, can say whatever they want. And in fact, the family has done so. The family has articulated, within an online echo chamber of Facebook, that the children were taken ONLY because of the presence of a legal substance that was used only for hydroponics and by the dad, and that further the REAL reason for removal is that the government consists of evil people who do not understand God or the Bible and who hate and fear their family because they home school their children, believe in home births and substitute home remedies and faith healing for regular medical care.

I am quite certain that they would love to provide this cover to their children, particularly the younger children who are the most vulnerable. The elder Stanleys seem to believe, as they prefer their children to believe, that they have a clear choice between God, as represented by their father, and the evil world, as represented by protective services, the foster family, public school and doctors. And this is clearly the reason that they are prohibited from discussing the case with their children. Using other means (giving public interviews, etc) to influence the children--particularly if some of the children must provide information about what happens at home--should also be prohibited at this point.
 
As someone who has written on hermeneutics before, I will say that much of what you say is sound. But (and not to disagree with you here), the fact that clarity in understanding things is a moving (and perhaps always evasive) target does not mean that society cannot collectively judge what is right and what is wrong. As well, history provides us with no shortage of examples of individuals (usually men) who think that they have a monopoly on the truth (e.g., an interpretation of scripture) and abuse this presumed authority to preserve their power.

I tried to watch some of S's sermons, but I didn't have the stomach or patience for it. I'm not going to say here that he is nuts, mentally ill, messianic, etc., but I will concede that I am relieved that his children and his manner of raising them is under review.

Thank you for commenting. Until I was in grad school, I always used to get hermeneutics and hermeticism mixed up. You are certainly right about the moving target of collective judgment. For anyone wanting to read more about hermeneutics, here is a link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_hermeneutics
 
I don't know how often it happens, however, this case had gained a certain level of notoriety before it ever got to court, leading to the DHS statement regarding the MMS being on one of multiple factors. The playing field is pretty uneven going in. Officials cannot elaborate on details. The family, however, can say whatever they want. And in fact, the family has done so. The family has articulated, within an online echo chamber of Facebook, that the children were taken ONLY because of the presence of a legal substance that was used only for hydroponics and by the dad, and that further the REAL reason for removal is that the government consists of evil people who do not understand God or the Bible and who hate and fear their family because they home school their children, believe in home births and substitute home remedies and faith healing for regular medical care.

I am quite certain that they would love to provide this cover to their children, particularly the younger children who are the most vulnerable. The elder Stanleys seem to believe, as they prefer their children to believe, that they have a clear choice between God, as represented by their father, and the evil world, as represented by protective services, the foster family, public school and doctors. And this is clearly the reason that they are prohibited from discussing the case with their children. Using other means (giving public interviews, etc) to influence the children--particularly if some of the children must provide information about what happens at home--should also be prohibited at this point.

If I were a teenager, I would be on that Facebook page to figure out just what mom and dad are doing. Teenagers and their parents frequently have an adversarial relationship anyway. Given that this family has come to such a pass, I suspect a couple of those teens won't be going home. I once observed a case, albeit very different, in which the teenage daughter of long term drug-using parents was suing to have their parental rights terminated. I was not able to follow the case to its outcome, but this poor girl had been in foster care for twelve years with no resolution. This case took place in New Mexico. At the time children over fourteen had some significant say in who had custody of them.
 
Have you tried to listen to his ramblings at all? You may see things differently if you listen to his rants and put yourself in the childrens' place. Also, *if* he has dementia (which we have no reason to believe) then it is even more important to find out what is going on in this house, and to make sure the children are safe. The wife in this case follows her husband's word, so if he is somehow mentally incapacitated, it could be a very dangerous situation for the children.

I'm not a child and it is impossible for me to put myself in the children's place. I don't know if they are being emotionally abused. The wife is also the children's mother and she has a duty to protect the children from abuse whether it is emotional or physical.

JMO
 
I don't know how often it happens, however, this case had gained a certain level of notoriety before it ever got to court, leading to the DHS statement regarding the MMS being on one of multiple factors. The playing field is pretty uneven going in. Officials cannot elaborate on details. The family, however, can say whatever they want. And in fact, the family has done so. The family has articulated, within an online echo chamber of Facebook, that the children were taken ONLY because of the presence of a legal substance that was used only for hydroponics and by the dad, and that further the REAL reason for removal is that the government consists of evil people who do not understand God or the Bible and who hate and fear their family because they home school their children, believe in home births and substitute home remedies and faith healing for regular medical care.

I am quite certain that they would love to provide this cover to their children, particularly the younger children who are the most vulnerable. The elder Stanleys seem to believe, as they prefer their children to believe, that they have a clear choice between God, as represented by their father, and the evil world, as represented by protective services, the foster family, public school and doctors. And this is clearly the reason that they are prohibited from discussing the case with their children. Using other means (giving public interviews, etc) to influence the children--particularly if some of the children must provide information about what happens at home--should also be prohibited at this point.

It wasn't DHS that issued the statement that "MMS was one of multiple factors, it was the Sheriff. Therein lies the problem. The government can't just enter a home and take children without giving a reason to the parents. That is the issue. Nothing about it is similar to the Rifqa Bary case. She ran away from her home and claimed her parents had threatened to harm her. She ended up in Florida because a couple bought her a bus ticket rather than notify CPS. She was only 13 years old.

In July 2009 she ran away from her parents' home to the home of Orlando, Florida Christian pastor Blake Lorenz and his wife, Beverly with whom Rifqa had communicated on Facebook. Rifqa had told Beverly Lorenz that her parents would kill her for converting to Christianity.[4] Williams drove her to a bus station where a ticket was purchased under an assumed name for her bus ride to Orlando, Florida.[3] Bary lived with the Lorenzes for 10 to 21 days (reports vary)[4] before they contacted child welfare authorities, though Florida law required that they contact authorities within 24 hours of receiving Rifqa into their home.[9]

Her case drew attention when she appeared on television and declared that her father said, "He would kill me or send me back to Sri Lanka," describing herself as the intended victim of an honor killing.[4

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifqa_Bary_controversy

JMO
 
If I were a teenager, I would be on that Facebook page to figure out just what mom and dad are doing. Teenagers and their parents frequently have an adversarial relationship anyway. Given that this family has come to such a pass, I suspect a couple of those teens won't be going home. I once observed a case, albeit very different, in which the teenage daughter of long term drug-using parents was suing to have their parental rights terminated. I was not able to follow the case to its outcome, but this poor girl had been in foster care for twelve years with no resolution. This case took place in New Mexico. At the time children over fourteen had some significant say in who had custody of them.

BBM. Where do you think the teens will go? Unless the parents are ruled as unfit, the children will be returned to their custody.

JMO
 
Quoting this statement from one of HS's morning preachings,

"At 32 min. in the audio he talks about the mother being ashamed to bring the child out of the womb"

What in the world is this about?! I have never ever heard such an evil statement in my life! Is he speaking of HIS wife because she knows what the child will be subjected to?
 
BBM. Where do you think the teens will go? Unless the parents are ruled as unfit, the children will be returned to their custody.

JMO

I believe that there is the possibility of the teens being determined to be "unruly" if they should refuse to go back to their parents home. I think that there was something similar going on in the Rifqa Bary case. There was never any fiinding that the parents posed any danger to Rifqa--despite lots of shouting about "honor killings." And she was quite a bit older than 13 years old. A piece of the Florida strategy was apparently to do as much as possible to run out the clock (essentially allowing her her to age out of the system) in order to prevent a forced return home. As I recall, there was a lot of talk about emancipation--however, there did not appear to be any legal means by which to carry this out, in Florida, anyway.

The similarity between these two cases is that both raise a question of how far a family may go in determining the religious affiliations and practices of their children, particularly in adolescence. In the Bary case, however, I do think that a family reconciliation may have been possible without the extreme interventions of outsiders (and I would say that sending someone else's kid a bus ticket out of state, and then hiding her--and probably schooling her in what to say to the press and others when finally found out--qualifies as pretty extreme, and it is astonishing that he was never charged with kidnapping). That is not to say that the Barys were happy with their daughter's conversion --but I do think that they were rational people living as a minority.

The Stanleys, however, may be too locked into their religious extremism (similar to some of the folks who believed themselves to be rescuing Rifqa) to be willing or able to change. They appear to earnestly believe that public schools are evil, medical care something to be avoided, the authoritiy of a father over his wife and children is absolute, and beatings required in order to rid children of their original sinful natures. Michelle has alluded to the difficulty of some of the lifestyle changes likely to be required.

I do think that there are some very difficult decisions ahead.
 
Quoting this statement from one of HS's morning preachings,

"At 32 min. in the audio he talks about the mother being ashamed to bring the child out of the womb"

What in the world is this about?! I have never ever heard such an evil statement in my life! Is he speaking of HIS wife because she knows what the child will be subjected to?

I believe it is a reference to original sin. There is a school of belief that not only are all sinners, due to human imperfection, but that children have inherited the sin of Adam, that they are actually vipers. That by its very nature, the infant is sinful, as it is ruled by its desires--to be fed, to be warm, dry, comforted, etc. I have been reading Breaking the Will, by Janet Heimlich. I didn't realize how deep such philosophy went, or for how many years there have been adherents. Very good book.
 
Quoting this statement from one of HS's morning preachings,

"At 32 min. in the audio he talks about the mother being ashamed to bring the child out of the womb"

What in the world is this about?! I have never ever heard such an evil statement in my life! Is he speaking of HIS wife because she knows what the child will be subjected to?

Perhaps he is referring to the idea of original sin. Maybe he thinks if one child misbehaves it bodes ill for the unborn. Isn't Michelle pregnant? Could be more guilt-tripping.
 
I believe it is a reference to original sin. There is a school of belief that not only are all sinners, due to human imperfection, but that children have inherited the sin of Adam, that they are actually vipers. That by its very nature, the infant is sinful, as it is ruled by its desires--to be fed, to be warm, dry, comforted, etc. I have been reading Breaking the Will, by Janet Heimlich. I didn't realize how deep such philosophy went, or for how many years there have been adherents. Very good book.

Sorry. Didn't see your post again before I posted. Lol! Great minds . . .
 
BBM. Where do you think the teens will go? Unless the parents are ruled as unfit, the children will be returned to their custody.

JMO

I really couldn't say, but just because one option might be closed to them does not mean that other options may not be available. I don't know Arkansas law, so perhaps you will enlighten us as to whether or not children can sue for the termination of their parents' parental rights or whether or not teens in custody disputes are able to have a say as to where they go. These might be indicators of their rights.

If I was being treated as I suspect these teens have been treated, I would endeavor to find a way. You might be surprised at the feelings and the anger abused children have. I am sorry you have said that you cannot imagine yourself in childhood. I, on the other hand, remember my childhood very well. I know what is like to be a child, having been one.
 
I believe that there is the possibility of the teens being determined to be "unruly" if they should refuse to go back to their parents home. I think that there was something similar going on in the Rifqa Bary case. There was never any fiinding that the parents posed any danger to Rifqa--despite lots of shouting about "honor killings." And she was quite a bit older than 13 years old. A piece of the Florida strategy was apparently to do as much as possible to run out the clock (essentially allowing her her to age out of the system) in order to prevent a forced return home. As I recall, there was a lot of talk about emancipation--however, there did not appear to be any legal means by which to carry this out, in Florida, anyway.

The similarity between these two cases is that both raise a question of how far a family may go in determining the religious affiliations and practices of their children, particularly in adolescence. In the Bary case, however, I do think that a family reconciliation may have been possible without the extreme interventions of outsiders (and I would say that sending someone else's kid a bus ticket out of state, and then hiding her--and probably schooling her in what to say to the press and others when finally found out--qualifies as pretty extreme, and it is astonishing that he was never charged with kidnapping). That is not to say that the Barys were happy with their daughter's conversion --but I do think that they were rational people living as a minority.

The Stanleys, however, may be too locked into their religious extremism (similar to some of the folks who believed themselves to be rescuing Rifqa) to be willing or able to change. They appear to earnestly believe that public schools are evil, medical care something to be avoided, the authoritiy of a father over his wife and children is absolute, and beatings required in order to rid children of their original sinful natures. Michelle has alluded to the difficulty of some of the lifestyle changes likely to be required.

I do think that there are some very difficult decisions ahead.

BBM. The government is NOT allowed to intervene in a family's religious choices unless it is physically or emotionally abusive to the child. The Bary case isn't the same because the government did not remove her to Florida, a fundamentalist Christian minister did and how the child found them was on Facebook. Mr. Bary admitted he prayed five times a day but the child was not subjected to any extremes of religious practices of Muslims yet the child and her kidnappers claimed her father threatened to kill her. I agree the minister should have been prosecuted for kidnapping.

The Bary case is more similar to the McCaul case, where a babysitter transported an infant to Tennessee and gave her to a fundamental Christian family. Instead of returning the baby girl to the custodial father, they called CPS and police and falsely accused him of abuse. It took years before a Judge realized Tennessee never had jurisdiction over the child.

Instead of returning the children to their home state, both Florida and Tennessee CPS kept the children in foster care in their state in fundamental Christian foster homes. Both states dragged it out for years. Both states were wrong. The "solution" is not to place these children in foster care.

The government shouldn't be involved in religious differences between parent and child. Years ago, a fundamental Christian church got permission to enter the public Middle School over the noon hour and proselytize. Our neighbor's 12 year-old daughter came home and told her Jewish mother and her Catholic father, who happens to be an attorney. It took a threat of a lawsuit before the School Board agreed to stop the practice.

JMO
 
I really couldn't say, but just because one option might be closed to them does not mean that other options may not be available. I don't know Arkansas law, so perhaps you will enlighten us as to whether or not children can sue for the termination of their parents' parental rights or whether or not teens in custody disputes are able to have a say as to where they go. These might be indicators of their rights.

If I was being treated as I suspect these teens have been treated, I would endeavor to find a way. You might be surprised at the feelings and the anger abused children have. I am sorry you have said that you cannot imagine yourself in childhood. I, on the other hand, remember my childhood very well. I know what is like to be a child, having been one.

BBM. Please don't twist my words. I said it was impossible to place myself in the children's shoes because I'm not a child and I don't live in their household.
 
I have seen absolutely no one in this thread suggest that the government should dictate to parents what religious education they may provide for their children as long as they don't insist that it take place at public school. I'm my opinion, there is not a thing wrong with homeschooling.

However, parents to not have a right to refuse their children reasonable education, neglect their medical care, deny them a legal identity, order them into marriage or sexual relationship, or physically or psychologically abuse them. When the exercise of religion impinges upon these rights of children to be safe, protected, and free to use their minds, then I believe those rights of the children have been impinged upon by the insistence of the parents to have their way.
 
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