AR - Thomas Naramore, 18 mos, dies in hot car, Hot Springs, 24 July 2015

[flourish]

Has this happened twice to one person?

 

[CCmakes3]

Nope, not that I know of. It's a pretty rare occurrence in the first place, thank goodness! Sorry if I offended you with my opinion. I just feel like it takes a special kind of forgetfulness or idiocy to leave a totally vulnerable infant in a car. But maybe I'm just an unfair, unforgiving zealot. Maybe that person is actually LESS likely to ever leave a kid in a car again. Perhaps they would make an ideal bus driver or daycare van driver because they would be hyper vigilant, Idk. I just feel like if the history is there, the risk (a child's life) is too great. Plus, it might be an appropriate, relevant, and relatively minimal consequence for what some would consider a pretty egregious offense. JMO.

I guess there are two kinds of people in this world when it comes to this situation: Those that feel "there but for the grace of God go I" and those who feel that they could never forget something so important. I happen to feel that I am the latter. I'm sure many people think that is a holier than thou attitude, but I truly believe I would never do it. Sorry if that seems naive! I am pretty scatter brained....I have left my phone in the fridge, lost my glasses on top of my head, and leave my credit card on a restaurant table at least once a month. But I have never forgotten where one of my children was. I apologize if my comment was offensive!

 

[human]

I was reading about the work culture of Amazon . I can imagine people there forgetting their kids. I can't imagine any other workplace having such high pressure put on employees, but I do think a lot of jobs make high demands and people place high demands on themselves. They are expected to make work the number one prority. I think I can see it happening. Maybe. The forgetting of a child

 

[CCmakes3]

I was reading about the work culture of Amazon . I can imagine people there forgetting their kids. I can't imagine any other workplace having such high pressure put on employees, but I do think a lot of jobs make high demands and people place high demands on themselves. They are expected to make work the number one prority. I think I can see it happening. Maybe. The forgetting of a child

I can see it happening to a certain type of person. I'm not saying I am a better type of person, just that if I were under that type of stress, I would say "screw it, I can't take care of my family properly under these conditions" and either start letting my job slide until I got fired, or quit voluntarily. I don't multi-task well, so I don't even try. If anything in my life starts making more demands than my kids, it's gone. I have ditched two jobs and a couple of needy friends for this reason. In fact, I took a $15,000 cut in pay for this reason. This was 16 years ago, and my husband and extended family still talk about what a "mistake" it was. I don't care. I sleep fine at night. But that probably makes me inferior in some ways to the type of dedicated, hard-working, nose-to-the-grindstone person who could fall vulnerable to forgetting their child in a car. My strength is probably simply that I KNOW I'm a scatter-brained ditz. I am definitely a mediocre employee. Yes, I'm a little ashamed about it, but it's a sacrifice I have had to make to be the kind of mom and caregiver that I want to be.

 

[flourish]

Nope, not that I know of. It's a pretty rare occurrence in the first place, thank goodness! Sorry if I offended you with my opinion. I just feel like it takes a special kind of forgetfulness or idiocy to leave a totally vulnerable infant in a car. But maybe I'm just an unfair, unforgiving zealot. Maybe that person is actually LESS likely to ever leave a kid in a car again. Perhaps they would make an ideal bus driver or daycare van driver because they would be hyper vigilant, Idk. I just feel like if the history is there, the risk (a child's life) is too great. Plus, it might be an appropriate, relevant, and relatively minimal consequence for what some would consider a pretty egregious offense. JMO.

I guess there are two kinds of people in this world when it comes to this situation: Those that feel "there but for the grace of God go I" and those who feel that they could never forget something so important. I happen to feel that I am the latter. I'm sure many people think that is a holier than thou attitude, but I truly believe I would never do it. Sorry if that seems naive! I am pretty scatter brained....I have left my phone in the fridge, lost my glasses on top of my head, and leave my credit card on a restaurant table at least once a month. But I have never forgotten where one of my children was. I apologize if my comment was offensive!

Wow. It was a question, not a challenge. If defensive feelings arose, well..... I don't know what to say about that


There seemed to be some big concerns about people doing this again, which seemed odd to me, so I was curious where those concerns arose from?

 

[human]

I can see it happening to a certain type of person. I'm not saying I am a better type of person, just that if I were under that type of stress, I would say "screw it, I can't take care of my family properly under these conditions" and either start letting my job slide until I got fired, or quit voluntarily. I don't multi-task well, so I don't even try. If anything in my life starts making more demands than my kids, it's gone. I have ditched two jobs and a couple of needy friends for this reason. In fact, I took a $15,000 cut in pay for this reason. This was 16 years ago, and my husband and extended family still talk about what a "mistake" it was. I don't care. I sleep fine at night. But that probably makes me inferior in some ways to the type of dedicated, hard-working, nose-to-the-grindstone person who could fall vulnerable to forgetting their child in a car. My strength is probably simply that I KNOW I'm a scatter-brained ditz. I am definitely a mediocre employee. Yes, I'm a little ashamed about it, but it's a sacrifice I have had to make to be the kind of mom and caregiver that I want to be.

If you die , retire, or quit your job, they have someone to replace you. Not worth the sacrifice of your family.

My hubby says the cemetaries are full of irreplaceable people. Family is waaaaaay more important.

If you get a chance, read about work requirements at Amazon

 

[CCmakes3]

Wow. It was a question, not a challenge. If defensive feelings arose, well..... I don't know what to say about that


There seemed to be some big concerns about people doing this again, which seemed odd to me, so I was curious where those concerns arose from?

They came completely out of nowhere, lol. Sorry if I implied that it had happened before! :blushing: It was my concern, totally unfounded and based on no factual information whatsoever. I just feel like it's such a big mistake that even the rare chance of it reoccurring should be considered. But if it had ever happened twice we would have heard about it, so you were right to call me out on it. :hiding: My bad. I just know that if it were my husband who did it, his picking up and dropping off privileges would be revoked! :seeya:

 

[flourish]

They came completely out of nowhere, lol. Sorry if I implied that it had happened before! :blushing: It was my concern, totally unfounded and based on no factual information whatsoever. I just feel like it's such a big mistake that even the rare chance of it reoccurring should be considered. But if it had ever happened twice we would have heard about it, so you were right to call me out on it. :hiding: My bad. I just know that if it were my husband who did it, his picking up and dropping off privileges would be revoked! :seeya:

One would hope CPS would be paying attention to the siblings of these victims, and maintaining an open case as long as necessary.

 

[jjenny]

They came completely out of nowhere, lol. Sorry if I implied that it had happened before! :blushing: It was my concern, totally unfounded and based on no factual information whatsoever. I just feel like it's such a big mistake that even the rare chance of it reoccurring should be considered. But if it had ever happened twice we would have heard about it, so you were right to call me out on it. :hiding: My bad. I just know that if it were my husband who did it, his picking up and dropping off privileges would be revoked! :seeya:

Actually it has happened. I am linking to a case where a woman forgot the same child in the car twice. First time he didn't die, second time he died.

"Because it was the second time she had left him in the car — the first time she was reminded by day-care staff that she had forgotten to drop him off — prosecutors charged Murphy with felony child abuse. That charge was later reduced to two charges of child neglect."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-this-mistake/2012/03/13/gIQAtepl9R_blog.html

 

[jjenny]

One would hope CPS would be paying attention to the siblings of these victims, and maintaining an open case as long as necessary.

Unless you follow them around all day long, how could you possibly make sure they don't forget again?

 

[flourish]

Unless you follow them around all day long, how could you possibly make sure they don't forget again?

You couldn't. I'm hoping there would be some assessments of the parents to determine the level of interventions appropriate.

Parents sometimes have their children returned to them after CPS intervention. We don't hear about the cases that are successful with intervention, education, services, etc.

I'd reckon these cases would be treated like other abuse and neglect cases; one size doesn't fit all.

 

[flourish]

How can we ensure that no parents ever forget? Shall we just assign people to follow children around from birth? Really....

 

[JeannaT]

I think what people don't understand, is the mechanics of how this can happen. In my observation, this NEVER happens to someone who very rarely has the kids (for example, a grand parent or as another poster in this thread said, she doesn't have kids but sometimes transports them). This also doesn't happen to moms who ALWAYS have the kids. If you almost never have kids in your custody, you are hyperaware that the kids are in your car. If you ALWAYS have them whenever you're in the car (as my experience, being a SAHM) you also don't forget them. You'd have to have a psychiatric lapse of cognitive function in either of those cases to forget your kids in the car.

This happens to people who quite often, but not always, have kids in their car. It the same thing as pulling up to a fast food window, ordering food, paying, getting your change, and driving off without food. Which happens a surprising number of times. The brain is on autopilot. You get in your car intending to go some place and find you've driven in the wrong direction, heading to a usual destination. During times of stress people do all kinds of things like lock their keys in their running car. I don't think it indicates a lack of caring about the child, but rather, the human brain's sometimes catastrophic ability to focus on a specific thought process and ignore routine input thoughts. We've certainly ALL experienced the phenomena of having our electricity go out, and we walk around turning on light switches. And if someone wants to say well your baby is more important than a power outage, I agree and I have never ever left my kids in a car, but I understand it. I've driven off without my hamburger I just paid for.

 

[bluesneakers]

You couldn't. I'm hoping there would be some assessments of the parents to determine the level of interventions appropriate.

Parents sometimes have their children returned to them after CPS intervention. We don't hear about the cases that are successful with intervention, education, services, etc.

I'd reckon these cases would be treated like other abuse and neglect cases; one size doesn't fit all.

IME JMO mother of a former foster family/adoption co-ordinator: They do happen and get a lot less fanfare than when a family is broken up and parents are arrested. Some biological parents work really hard, follow all the rules, stay clean, and keep in contact with their kids even when it means only short supervised visits once or twice a week. The efforts they put in ... they should be so proud of themselves and the happy endings always bring tears to my eyes. Not sensational enough for the news (though at this point privacy is what's important, not exciting enough for gossip (other than "I can't believe she got her kids back! Terrible!), but a wonderful opportunity for a family to be reunited.

The expressions on the particular family I'm thinking of... making me cry right now (in the best way) thinking of the sweet little girl.

OT and long, I know, but just sharing the chance to hear about one of those cases.

 

[flourish]

I think what people don't understand, is the mechanics of how this can happen. In my observation, this NEVER happens to someone who very rarely has the kids (for example, a grand parent or as another poster in this thread said, she doesn't have kids but sometimes transports them). This also doesn't happen to moms who ALWAYS have the kids. If you almost never have kids in your custody, you are hyperaware that the kids are in your car. If you ALWAYS have them whenever you're in the car (as my experience, being a SAHM) you also don't forget them. You'd have to have a psychiatric lapse of cognitive function in either of those cases to forget your kids in the car.

This happens to people who quite often, but not always, have kids in their car. It the same thing as pulling up to a fast food window, ordering food, paying, getting your change, and driving off without food. Which happens a surprising number of times. The brain is on autopilot. You get in your car intending to go some place and find you've driven in the wrong direction, heading to a usual destination. During times of stress people do all kinds of things like lock their keys in their running car. I don't think it indicates a lack of caring about the child, but rather, the human brain's sometimes catastrophic ability to focus on a specific thought process and ignore routine input thoughts. We've certainly ALL experienced the phenomena of having our electricity go out, and we walk around turning on light switches. And if someone wants to say well your baby is more important than a power outage, I agree and I have never ever left my kids in a car, but I understand it. I've driven off without my hamburger I just paid for.

I pretty much agree. I think it falls in the category of abuse/neglect and should be punished, but I also see how it could happen, unlike things which generally fit in that category. It's a horrible thing all around. And it's difficult also in the sense that it's been done intentionally, so there's that whole added dimension, because it may or may not have intent behind it.

Awful from every angle.

 

[EllieBee]

How can we ensure that no parents ever forget? Shall we just assign people to follow children around from birth? Really....

MOO is that parents do not "forget". Not categorically, but overwhelmingly.

Again, MOO.

 

[CCmakes3]

I think what people don't understand, is the mechanics of how this can happen. In my observation, this NEVER happens to someone who very rarely has the kids (for example, a grand parent or as another poster in this thread said, she doesn't have kids but sometimes transports them). This also doesn't happen to moms who ALWAYS have the kids. If you almost never have kids in your custody, you are hyperaware that the kids are in your car. If you ALWAYS have them whenever you're in the car (as my experience, being a SAHM) you also don't forget them. You'd have to have a psychiatric lapse of cognitive function in either of those cases to forget your kids in the car.

This happens to people who quite often, but not always, have kids in their car. It the same thing as pulling up to a fast food window, ordering food, paying, getting your change, and driving off without food. Which happens a surprising number of times. The brain is on autopilot. You get in your car intending to go some place and find you've driven in the wrong direction, heading to a usual destination. During times of stress people do all kinds of things like lock their keys in their running car. I don't think it indicates a lack of caring about the child, but rather, the human brain's sometimes catastrophic ability to focus on a specific thought process and ignore routine input thoughts. We've certainly ALL experienced the phenomena of having our electricity go out, and we walk around turning on light switches. And if someone wants to say well your baby is more important than a power outage, I agree and I have never ever left my kids in a car, but I understand it. I've driven off without my hamburger I just paid for.

I understand the whole auto-pilot phenomenon. But I do think it only happens to a certain "type" of person, and I don't know how to articulate or categorize that type, but I know that it's very different from me. I am a space cadet and go on auto-pilot all the time, but I guess the difference is how often my thoughts and attention revert or "default" to my kids. I think about them all the time. I feel like everything I do relates to them. When I am stressed, I find myself thinking about my kids in order to put things into perspective and/or comfort myself. I don't want to sound like I think I'm a super-mom or something. On the contrary-- I certainly am one the most inefficient people I know, and I've made a ton of parenting mistakes! I just can't imagine leaving my kid in a car because for whatever reason I am the type of person who, for better or worse, thinks about my kids extremely often, probably to the point of not being able to get other things done. Doesn't make me a better parent, just makes it impossible for me to commit this type of negligence. And yes, it probably makes me a horrible employee, but my boss and co-workers like me and I've managed to hold the same job for 14+ years.

 

[CCmakes3]

Actually it has happened. I am linking to a case where a woman forgot the same child in the car twice. First time he didn't die, second time he died.

"Because it was the second time she had left him in the car — the first time she was reminded by day-care staff that she had forgotten to drop him off — prosecutors charged Murphy with felony child abuse. That charge was later reduced to two charges of child neglect."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-this-mistake/2012/03/13/gIQAtepl9R_blog.html

Thanks -- I was beginning to feel like maybe I was paranoid to think this behavior could repeat itself. I actually find myself on the other side of my argument now, wondering how on earth this woman could allow herself to do this twice!!!

 

[wendybtn]

You said:



To me that sounds like inventing details and claiming them as facts. Unless you know something about what he was doing that the rest of us don't. If that's the case, where did you get the information?

Yeah, maybe he was meeting with church elders while his kid strangled himself burning up his little brain in the death mobile. I have just lived too long and am just too cynical. Sorry. I cannot live in the land of denial of what goes on in real life. Drugs, alcohol, and sex (lust), & mental illness are the cause of most misery in the US. IMO. Bluesneakers, I am not sure if it was you or not, but some people went crazy on the Arkansas homeschoolers in another thread this year. But now it is a judge, everyone seems so leery of saying anything. This judge is the brilliant decider of what other parents are doing in their homes. I personally thoroughly question his competence and judgment for that job.

 

[wendybtn]

Unless you follow them around all day long, how could you possibly make sure they don't forget again?

Removal, termination, & adoption.