Are the Ramseys involved or not?

[mrseeker]

Mommy did it.

 

[UKGuy]

Mommy did it.

mrseeker,
did Mommy have a sexual motive?


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[mrseeker]

mrseeker,
did Mommy have a sexual motive?


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Maybe? or she was trying to stage a sexual component or hide a sexual component with a fake one. Maybe she has hang ups or strange sexual practices. It is not unheard of. I mean she did let her little girl dress like an adult and mimic adult behavior when she was in pageants. I know some say it was all for fun. Maybe so. It is still something that has to be introduced by a parent. I do think Patsy was a very strange lady.

 

[UKGuy]

Maybe? or she was trying to stage a sexual component or hide a sexual component with a fake one. Maybe she has hang ups or strange sexual practices. It is not unheard of. I mean she did let her little girl dress like an adult and mimic adult behavior when she was in pageants. I know some say it was all for fun. Maybe so. It is still something that has to be introduced by a parent. I do think Patsy was a very strange lady.

mrseeker,
Patsy was a very strange lady. For sure, allowing her little girl to act like an adult on stage.

Maybe she had an attraction to her own gender, and an utter distaste for physical relationships with men, we can only speculate, similarly with the ransom note.

Its just fake artifact, just like the Picasso I painted yesterday!

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[mrseeker]

mrseeker,
Patsy was a very strange lady. For sure, allowing her little girl to act like an adult on stage.

Maybe she had an attraction to her own gender, and an utter distaste for physical relationships with men, we can only speculate, similarly with the ransom note.

Its just fake artifact, just like the Picasso I painted yesterday!

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It is fake, but it was written for a purpose and not to fool police. It was written to fool John and get him to leave the house that morning, so mom could remove the body and finish the staging. John just didn't cooperate. He reacted normally. He made her call police. I think it was after the police were called and he took a look at that note that he realized Patsy did it. Whatever Patsy told him, truth, lie, whatever, he decided to go along with it. Maybe she never told him the truth, but he decided to just shut up. If John was involved in this murder or the staging, the body would not have been in the house when the police were called. No way would John have gone along with that stupid note. I also think Patsy cannot be normal, if she is willing to desecrate her daughter's corpse for the sake of making it look like a sexual crime. Perhaps the staging was to cover-up the prior abuse. It's only a fake if you sign it Picasso and tell everyone it is. You confessed its a copy. Still waiting on the Ramseys. It might take an art expert to discover your fake, but whoever wrote this note did not even come close to reality. We all can see that it's a fake.

 

[DeDee]

Yeah they definitely had some sort of a plan in place before BPD arrived. Stating immediately that the doors were locked goes against the grain of any IDI scenario except someone with a key. Open/broken windows only became a factor later on thanks to Lou Smit. If the window(s) were a viable point of entry, John would have jumped on this that morning once going into the basement after BPD arrived. He could have run upstairs and said something like, "Hey! Look at this. Our window has been broken and someone might have climbed through this other one!". He didn't do this though because nothing was out of order to him down there.

BPD should have picked up on this immediately. A crime scene that entails a kidnapping which turns to murder seven hours later and by some coincidence there's a broken and now open window in the basement. Then take into account John's statement about the murder being an "inside job". It was very calculated.

UK brings up how there appears to be multi layering to the staging and its issues like this which prove that to be the case.

They definitely were cooking up suspects from the start. You mention the housekeeper. They also went pretty hard against Santa Bill. I'm actually surprised they didn't go after him before her.

Here's John trying to make the case...

JOHN RAMSEY: It's -- if I -- you know, if I recall this little tidbit that her mother said that JonBenet said Santa was going to come visit her the evening of the 26th, she never told us that. And if that's something they would have, you know, secretly prearranged, would have been very possible, because I think JonBenet took Santa through the house, you know, that night of the 23rd or was with him while he was there the year before, I remember that. If I came -- if I in fact -- if, in fact, that's who said that to her and, in fact, was said, and somebody she knew, and was expecting, particularly Santa Claus, she would hop right out of bed, you know, gone to the mall if he wanted to.

This is deplorable. I realize some think Santa is a legitimate suspect and/or a shady character but John is overstating his case. He is saying that his six year old daughter would hop right out of bed in the middle of the night and go wherever Santa or someone else she knew wanted her to go.

Teen girls are the type to hop out of bed and go somewhere late at night. Jonbenet is six. How many six year old girls would do such a thing? He also insinuates that she is old enough to "prearrange" meetings with adults and even worse, it "would have been very possible".. This statement says a lot about John. It borders on character assassination of his own daughter but as long as it points the finger to someone else, he doesn't seem to care.

Edit: here's a comment from Patsy about Santa...

So Patsy says they were never alone but John thinks its possible that Santa and Jonbenet would prearrange secret meetings and leave the house in the middle of the night.

That doesn't add up obviously.

2nd Edit: I forgot to add that excerpt where he actually insinuates the possibility of Santa being in the house and feeding her pineapple...

He even says they had a special relationship which seems to be an attempt to merely link him even closer to the "secret" Santa comment.

John's statement about the murder being an "inside job"

AndHence is likely correct in that the Rs stated the doors were locked b/c that implies inside job knowledge the housekeeper or Santa Bill may have had. No way do I think Santa Bill had a house key to their home. Yes, she was young enough and trusting enough to go with Santa Bill, or anyone, for she held enthusiasm and no real fear of danger until those last couple of weeks. Her bodily excrements prove that JBR became stressed during that time frame of the last month of her life.

He didn't do this though because nothing was out of order to him down there.

The entire R Holiday Home was becoming a Haunting Nightmare. Stuff was strewn from one end to another end. The basement was always a horrid place even during the daytime with the doors open and lights turned on. The basement always looked like a wrecking ball had gone through it. The basement had not been cleaned since the Christmas Home Tour of the previous year. BR enjoyed his train set that Neil Young designed and developed for his own son. He kept parts of the train set upstairs in his bedroom again, imho, b/c the moldy basement was a scary, drafty place with strange noises like the boiler room would produce.

John Ramsey:
If I came -- if I in fact -- if, in fact, that's who said that to her and, in fact, was said, and somebody she knew, and was expecting, particularly Santa Claus, she would hop right out of bed, you know, gone to the mall if he wanted to.

You read that response correctly. That's the stuttering multi-million dollar CEO of AccessGraph*cs. JR was carefully selecting folks, like their housekeeper and Mr. Bill. JR knew what was needed for creating a reasonable doubt. JR could and would do it. He picked the suspects up and threw them under the proverbial bus. JR offered no safety for his young daughter in life and offers none now. He could hold a presser and declare a position. Let the chips fall where they may.

Wonder if BR ever held a bond with any of the other children such as JAR? Or JRs Xwife? JR retained attorneys for each of them so they would speak no evil. Does BR attend family reunions? Does he continue in a friendship with the White's two children? BRs sister probably would have become a Miss Colorado, then, gone on to the Miss America Pageant. Makes me really sad for her, for them.

 

[FrankieB]

Yes, she was young enough and trusting enough to go with Santa Bill, or anyone, for she held enthusiasm and no real fear of danger until those last couple of weeks. Her bodily excrements prove that JBR became stressed during that time frame of the last month of her life.

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This is true and I think a lot more emphasis should be placed on it. As singularity has said, a timeline of the last days of her life should have been created. The first 911 call, the ripped up card, the statement at the party, the encopresis and bed wetting, the clinginess she suddenly developed for Patsy, the sad look on her last few photographs, coupled with the statement from teachers and aquaintances who described the same sadness highly unusual for her...when all of this piles up you have a very stressful, chaotic and tragic last couple of weeks in this child's life. How could people not have picked up on this? No way on earth can an "intruder" provoke all these feelings and situations before his gran appereance on christmas. The last days of her life and the last rolls of film taken at the parties are key to solving the murder, in my opinion.

 

[DeDee]

This is true and I think a lot more emphasis should be placed on it. As singularity has said, a timeline of the last days of her life should have been created. The first 911 call, the ripped up card, the statement at the party, the encopresis and bed wetting, the clinginess she suddenly developed for Patsy, the sad look on her last few photographs, coupled with the statement from teachers and aquaintances who described the same sadness highly unusual for her...when all of this piles up you have a very stressful, chaotic and tragic last couple of weeks in this child's life. How could people not have picked up on this? No way on earth can an "intruder" provoke all these feelings and situations before his gran appereance on christmas. The last days of her life and the last rolls of film taken at the parties are key to solving the murder, in my opinion.

It is true that JB exhibited signs of high stress, prior to her death. I concur that this factor is important in understanding the dynamics of a day in the life of JonBenet Ramsey.

Years ago, I took time to create a Dec 1996 calendar for the Rs. You may be astounded to learn how many empty/free calendar days they had. It was like zero or maybe negative. Every day they had something going on. I used all kinds of news resources to fill in the time period at the end of Nov. and month of Dec. with their activities going all the way back to their trips to GA and NYC a month prior to death. They hosted and attended numerous Christmas parties in 1996, including the Moyers Party. Their calendar was filled with either JonBenet activities or JRs business activities. It was as if Patsy and BR were along for the ride until the train came to an abrupt halt at the station. IE, Patsy did not attend the million dollar club dinner when John received his award as she chose to attend a JBR function instead.

Keeping the photos secreted has been a stumbling block for us, esp., when trying to follow the transcripts. It is possible that both parents indulged in viewing higher than R rated films and creating soft p*rn as some images of their daughter, esp. in the Charlevoix home, is indeed just that. Dirty House. Dirty Hearts. Dirty Minds. Dirty Secrets.

 

[UKGuy]

DeDee,

Wonder if BR ever held a bond with any of the other children such as JAR? Or JRs Xwife? JR retained attorneys for each of them so they would speak no evil. Does BR attend family reunions? Does he continue in a friendship with the White's two children? BRs sister probably would have become a Miss Colorado, then, gone on to the Miss America Pageant. Makes me really sad for her, for them.

BR still communicates with Doug Stine his schooldays buddy. So you can bet the house on DS and Momma watching BR's interview with Dr Phil.

The White's and the R's do not communicate, legal necessity has taken over.

Patsy was trying to replicate her own success by grooming JonBenet via the pageants, this was the Paugh family values writ large.


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[SBTC]

I am new to the forums. I apologize if my question has been answered elsewhere. But it is my understanding that the Ramseys car was packed with rapped gifts on the morning of Dec. 26th. Ready to go to the airport. Did the police/FBI go through those gifts? Seems like it would have been a possible way of removing some incriminating evidence.

 

[reintarnation]

In my work, I have come across some very dysfunctional families, that have family "norms", that 99% of "normal" families would not even begin to believe. Once, you suspend your entire belief system of how a "normal" family unit acts, behaves, thinks, the entire scenario of Patsy killing JBR, because of jealousy, rage, whatever and Patsy blackmails John into covering up for her, or she spills all about his child molestation of JBR, then, the entire scene begins to make some dysfunctional sense.

Yes! I think PDI and that JR was complicit, but then you have to wonder why.

With the staging elements suggesting a sexual motive, I could see her telling JR what happened and threatening to blackmail him if he didn't back her play. Maybe she convinced him that she was capable of turning on him and that she would be believed, which would mean imprisonment and the loss of his family, lifestyle, and wealth. If this is true, perhaps he was conflicted but weighed the pros and cons, ultimately deciding to go along with it.

This would explain the physical distance between PR and JR in the moments and days after. From Steve Thomas's book, following the arrival of LE but before JBR was discovered: "Despite her obvious distress, her husband did not go to her. ..It was as if the house had separated into two camps, His and Hers...police considered the physical distance between John and Patsy Ramsey to be remarkable under the stressful conditions." Accounts from friends with whom the R's stayed in the following days echo the same demeanor.

The only other explanation I've imagined is if PDI accidentally, she could have appealed to JR that it was truly a mistake, felt genuine fear and remorse, and needed his help. That may have illicited enough sympathy for him to stand by her, but JR would still be bitter and angry with her.

 

[BBB167893]

Yes! I think PDI and that JR was complicit, but then you have to wonder why.

With the staging elements suggesting a sexual motive, I could see her telling JR what happened and threatening to blackmail him if he didn't back her play. Maybe she convinced him that she was capable of turning on him and that she would be believed, which would mean imprisonment and the loss of his family, lifestyle, and wealth. If this is true, perhaps he was conflicted but weighed the pros and cons, ultimately deciding to go along with it.

This would explain the physical distance between PR and JR in the moments and days after. From Steve Thomas's book, following the arrival of LE but before JBR was discovered: "Despite her obvious distress, her husband did not go to her. ..It was as if the house had separated into two camps, His and Hers...police considered the physical distance between John and Patsy Ramsey to be remarkable under the stressful conditions." Accounts from friends with whom the R's stayed in the following days echo the same demeanor.

The only other explanation I've imagined is if PDI accidentally, she could have appealed to JR that it was truly a mistake, felt genuine fear and remorse, and needed his help. That may have elicited enough sympathy for him to stand by her, but JR would still be bitter and angry with her.

I imagine that they would have both felt anger towards each other, but decided to keep it together for Burke's sake, and each other, because that was all they had left.

 

[Flatlander]

I am of the opinion that BR and DS (unbeknownst sleep over Christmas night) accidentally led to the death of JB. I believe that PR knew about BR and JB sex play and possibly the reason for PR violating JB on the 25th along with the ramsom note and strangulation. I also feel that the decision was made to sacrifice the one child for the sake of losing two by JR and PR.

 

[SBTC]

Why do you feel DS was there that night?

 

[CanManEh]

Not sure if any of you have got a glimpse yet of the up coming 3 segment's where Burke will be on Dr Phil show or not but i happen to watch the show yesterday and i seen for the first time the preview of the first segment and it got all the hair on my neck standing i was so Im not even sure of the right word shocked excited amazed that this is finally happening . I really do think this is gonna be something amazing when Dr Phil has burke on for 3 days and I for one am really excited ///

 

[WhoKnowsWhat]

I believe that PR knew about BR and JB sex play and possibly the reason for PR violating JB on the 25th along with the ramsom note and strangulation.

LHP ( housekeeper) said she told PR about BR and JB playing doctor. LHP said she walked in on them and they told her to leave them alone?

 

[eileenhawkeye]

http://www.today.com/news/jonben-t-ramsey-s-brother-burke-speaks-out-first-time-t102682

I'm paraphrasing: "The Ramseys were cleared in 2008...a move that has been criticized by experts and investigators"

 

[Jupiter]

Not sure if any of you have got a glimpse yet of the up coming 3 segment's where Burke will be on Dr Phil show or not but i happen to watch the show yesterday and i seen for the first time the preview of the first segment and it got all the hair on my neck standing i was so Im not even sure of the right word shocked excited amazed that this is finally happening . I really do think this is gonna be something amazing when Dr Phil has burke on for 3 days and I for one am really excited ///

Hello,

My first time posting over here, long time follower though-wanted to add that I watched that preview segment and it was interesting to see that BR was all smiles as He was talking about the night his sister died. Bizarre.

 

[johnjay]

Hello,

My first time posting over here, long time follower though-wanted to add that I watched that preview segment and it was interesting to see that BR was all smiles as He was talking about the night his sister died. Bizarre.

I also find it bizarre that his lawyers would recommend that he do this show if that's how he's going to come across throughout the interviews.

 

[Tadpole12]

smiles making headlines:

JonBenet Ramsey's Brother Burke Smiles As He Recalls Case
Us Weekly‎ - 7 hours ago
Burke Ramsey SMILES as he recalls morning little sister JonBenet went missing
Daily Mail‎ - 13 hours ago
JonBenet Ramsey's Brother Burke Smiles As He Recalls Aftermath ...
Us Weekly-6 hours ago

Dr. Phil Describes a 'Smiling' and 'Atypical' Burke Ramsey in ...
People Magazine-6 hours ago

Burke Ramsey Strangely Smiles Recalling…
International-Hollywood Life-8 hours ago

JonBenét Ramsey's brother Burke speaks out for the first time since ...
Highly Cited-Today.com-15 hours ago

SEE IT: JonBenet's brother smiles as he recalls her disappearance
International-New York Daily News-8 hours ago