Are the Ramseys involved or not?

[natasha-cupcake]

"Yeah she was petrified wasn't she? That must have been why the alarms weren't used in the new house and they got broken into again."

No kidding!

"I've always thought that the "staging" elements were more ritualistic in nature (expression of the dichotomous sadistic hatred/pedophilic "caring" ) rather than motivated by a desire to cover up."

Except there was nothing hateful or overly sadistic about it. And the body was treated with exceptional care: wrapped in a blanket with her favorite nightgown, etc.

I was speaking of the garotte, the wrist bonds and paint brush handle used for vaginal penetration when I was speaking of sadistic, hateful activity. I personally don't see it as logical that a mother covering up a rage-induced, accidental homicide would use such abhorrent sexual staging on her daughter. That's pretty out there, in my opinion. I think it's much more likely that a wacko pedophile would sexually tortute and kill a child, then dress her up in a "caring" fashion. That makes sense because pedophiles are pretty mentally bizarre people. They are obviously compelled to perform horrific acts on children, yet they are also very delusional about how they feel about their victims and sometimes how they think their victims feel about them. Witness Karr's ridiculous statement that he and JBR were lovers. Moms that snap and hurt or kill their children are not unheard of, but I still think sexually sadistic staging is not a logical way for a mother to act, even if she was trying to cover up a rageful unintentional killing--"Oh my God, I killed my baby! I know! I'll stick a paintbrush handle up her vagina and make the cops think a pedophile killed her."--It just doesn't add up to me.

 

[narlacat]

Ivy, remember Burke could not have done it alone. The latch on the winecellar door was latched when officer French went down into the basment at 6.05 and Burke couldn't reach the latch. An adult must have at least helped him in the coverup.

I rule out the possibility that Burke brought a chair or something just to be able to latch this door as 'not reasonable' as the latch was pretty useless except to just keep children out of the winecellar.

Tumble
I've never read anywhere that Burke couldn't reach that latch.
Where did you read that?

 

[questionable]

I was speaking of the garotte, the wrist bonds and paint brush handle used for vaginal penetration when I was speaking of sadistic, hateful activity. I personally don't see it as logical that a mother covering up a rage-induced, accidental homicide would use such abhorrent sexual staging on her daughter. That's pretty out there, in my opinion. I think it's much more likely that a wacko pedophile would sexually tortute and kill a child, then dress her up in a "caring" fashion. That makes sense because pedophiles are pretty mentally bizarre people. They are obviously compelled to perform horrific acts on children, yet they are also very delusional about how they feel about their victims and sometimes how they think their victims feel about them. Witness Karr's ridiculous statement that he and JBR were lovers. Moms that snap and hurt or kill their children are not unheard of, but I still think sexually sadistic staging is not a logical way for a mother to act, even if she was trying to cover up a rageful unintentional killing--"Oh my God, I killed my baby! I know! I'll stick a paintbrush handle up her vagina and make the cops think a pedophile killed her."--It just doesn't add up to me.

Yes Pedophiles are sick twisted human beings and could certainly do such an act on a child but NOT the parents, not in any way shape or form. These people aren't twisted or insane/crazy in any way? They are successful, church going people who thrived in Society? For all of the people insisting that there is a pedophile involved, what pedophile would lounge around a house feeding the child and making homemade garrots to torture, change her etc. with the parents and the brother right in the house? Then this pedophile supposedly kills the little girl and then takes the time to write a three or four page ransom note like he has all the time in the world? Its not washing with me thats for sure. IMO the only person that could be suspect is the boy. His parents went to bed and he asked if he could stay up and play for a bit and the parents agreed. He either played video games or watched a video and i'm willing to bet that the things done to JB were mimicked by what he saw on that screen. The ransom note was not in his handwriting but that is where the friend comes in at, imo he probably instructed his friend on what he should write and thats where all the familiar words and sayings come in at on the ransom note. If anyone has seen the note, does it looks like a child wrote it?

 

[desert]

What I'm wondering is, did anyone catch the article in the NE in late June that supposedly had Patsy's last words? I missed it, and of course they only have a teaser on their web site. I'd be interested if anyone saw that.

 

[BBB167893]

"Moms that snap and hurt or kill their children are not unheard of, but I still think sexually sadistic staging is not a logical way for a mother to act, even if she was trying to cover up a rageful unintentional killing--"Oh my God, I killed my baby! I know! I'll stick a paintbrush handle up her vagina and make the cops think a pedophile killed her."--It just doesn't add up to me."

That's what I used to think, too.

What you have to remember, natasha-cupcake, is this "vicious" strangulation didn't damage the internals of the neck, the wrist ties were so loose they just slipped off and the paintbrush injury was likely used to hide prior abuse.

I'm not much on theory or maybes. I try to stick to fact.

 

[tumble]

the wrist ties were so loose they just slipped off

I think th purpose of the loose wrist ligature was to explain why there were no scratch marks on JB's neck. The stager was aware that a consious person being strangled would ofcourse try to get the cord of her neck. The stager just missed out on the fact that JB would have tried to get loose from the wrist ligature an so causing brusing or abrasions on her wrists.

 

[tumble]

Tumble
I've never read anywhere that Burke couldn't reach that latch.
Where did you read that?

PR statements, using my own eyes and deduction. PR states that she latched that door to keep the children out of the winecellar when she hid Chrsitmas presents there.

Look at the pictures, the latch was quite far up.
You see the latch up to the top left side of the door in ths picture.
http://www.acandyrose.com/072basement.jpg

 

[questionable]

Who's testimony was it that said the door was latched?Why would the door still be latched on Christmas evening when the gifts were probably removed the evening prior to put under the tree? Why re-latch an empty room?

 

[tumble]

Who's testimony was it that said the door was latched?

Officer French found the door to the winecelar latched at 6.10 when he searched the basement.

The interesting thing about this latch it that it was actually only PR who ever latched this door and that was when she wanted children out of the room.

JR states that he never latched this door.

And the person who put JB's body in the winecellar latched this door.

I have been arguing for awhile that the most likely person to put JB in the winecellar would be PR because of this. I think she subconciously latched this door as she had a notion of hiding JB's body there.

An intruder would not even be aware of this latch and as I see it it would be improbable that he latched it.

Why would the door still be latched on Christmas evening when the gifts were probably removed the evening prior to put under the tree? Why re-latch an empty room?

Some say that the intruder re-latched it. But I actually don't think PR latched the door after she got the presents out just as you point out in your post, cause there was nothing to hide there anymore after the presents were out.

 

[questionable]

I agree, why would the perp relatch the door? JB surely wasn't able to go anywhere? It certainly is easy enough to understand why investigators were not able to solve this crime, nothing seems to make any sense? I'm sticking to the brother and the friend theory until someone, anyone can prove in some way that this was impossible. John and Patsy Ramsey are guilty of covering up a horrible accident (committed by Burke) in their home and imo that's the extent of their guilt in all of this, that's my story and i'm sticking to it. IMO this case was made to look way more complicated than need be. It was a simple case of children playing gone horribly wrong, no pedophiles, no intruders etc. Just a plain accident with devastating consequences.

 

[tumble]

I agree, why would the perp relatch the door? JB surely wasn't able to go anywhere? It certainly is easy enough to understand why investigators were not able to solve this crime, nothing seems to make any sense?

This case is all about the details. And I think many crimescenes are hard to make sense of as the crime itself is senseless.

 

[rashomon]

This case is all about the details. And I think many crimescenes are hard to make sense of as the crime itself is senseless.

A crime may appear to be 'senseless' in the eyes of outside observers, but whenever a crime has been committed, one must to look for the possible motive or for something which triggered the act.
Once you have found that, there simply exist no 'senseless' crimes anymore because you can explain what happened and why it happened.

 

[questionable]

I agree but that in essence is my point, things will never add up because they are not as they appear? I'm sure the investigators had the same gut feelings that i and many other people have had, that it was an inside job and they then focused their attention on the Ramseys only to find that the evidence provided didn't support most of that theory, and why did the evidence not match the crime? because it was tampered with by the Ramseys, of course it makes no sense. IMO this crime will never be solved unless there is a confession from someone in the Ramsey family themselves. IMO they and only they know what really happened in that house on that night and surely they won't be confessing anytime soon. There sat a mother and father willing to ruin their own lives and be put under constant scrutiny in order to protect the one and only child that they have left. I'm quite sure their lives have been pure hell since this tragedy occured and imo it will never end because they will indeed never ever confess the truth to anyone.

 

[Amity]

LE, Scientists, Coronors etc. make mistakes. Nobody is perfect, we are human, we make mistakes.

So, my question is...
What makes 99.9% of the human population feel this is a "staged crime scene"?
I'm asking in all sincerity....It's all I've heard for almost 10 years...that it was a staged crime scene.
What if, just what if it wasn't? What if the killer was so inept, was such a bungling boob that he/she made this mess, made it impossible to point a true finger at him/her, without even trying? Just by pure chance, maybe this murderer created what looked to everyone involved to be a staged crime scene when he/she wasn't even trying to?
Over the last century, stranger things have happened. I mean, think about it....What if?

 

[tumble]

LE, Scientists, Coronors etc. make mistakes. Nobody is perfect, we are human, we make mistakes.

So, my question is...
What makes 99.9% of the human population feel this is a "staged crime scene"?
I'm asking in all sincerity....It's all I've heard for almost 10 years...that it was a staged crime scene.
What if, just what if it wasn't? What if the killer was so inept, was such a bungling boob that he/she made this mess, made it impossible to point a true finger at him/her, without even trying? Just by pure chance, maybe this murderer created what looked to everyone involved to be a staged crime scene when he/she wasn't even trying to?
Over the last century, stranger things have happened. I mean, think about it....What if?

I just pull one thing out of the bag.
The maglite found in the kitchen.

The R's agreed it was a similar maglite that JR has been given by JAR.
They didn't say it was actually theirs and they didn't produce their own flashlight to show that it indeed wasn't theirs.
The maglite was free of fingerprints.
The batteries inside the maglite was free of fingerprints.
The maglite head matched the indented part of JBR's skull.

I think it's is fair to say the flashlight was indeed theirs.
Then comes the question why were there no fingerprints on it?

Wound an intruder who has managed to roam around the house without leving one fingerprint be doing this without gloves?
No quite impossible, then if he was wearing gloves, why wipe the maglite AND the batteries free of fingerprints.

Any domestic flashlight(or the batteries inside) would have some of the families prints on it or atleast some partial print, this maglite was wiped.
As I see it this the reasonable explaination is that the R's tried to make it look like the flashlight actually wasn't theirs but left there by someone else.
This explains why the fingerprints on the batteries had to go.
There could not be a single fingerprint linking that flashlight to the R's.

In my imagination I can see the intruder bringing his own similar maglite and then swapping it mistakenly for the R's flashlight. According to the R's the flashlight was stored in a drawer that was found open on the crimescene. In this case the intruder must have taken this out of the drawer even though he had brought his own and then mistakenly exchanged them. What is the likelyhood of that?

Why was it so important for the R's to distance themselves from this maglite?
IMO, this ties together with the maglite being the object causing the fatal head injury.

 

[questionable]

The fibers attached to the duct tape on JBs mouth and the fibers found in JBs panties. Would the perp root through the house looking for Duct tape to use? And even if the perp did exactly that, what are the odds that the fibers that were found on the tape be from the very same outfits they were wearing that prior evening? The Rs stated they owned no such duct tape? Well alrighty then, how did the fibers of their clothing get onto the duct tape (which they claimed wasn't theirs) they found on JBs mouth? IMO the Rs found the note and then immediately found JB, took off the duct tape, cradled her in their arms and thats how the fibers got onto the tape and in her panties. They had probably turned in for the evening and threw their clothes over a chair and climbed into bed and in the morning grabbed the same clothing in haste of the situation. I can't even imagine the hell they were in while cleaning, re-dressing their dead baby? My heart truely breaks for them.

 

[scandi]

It was either Dr Lee or Dr Spitz who stated as TH's last week that there were 2, 2" pieces of tape on her mouth. Then I read this tape had been taken off a doll that was in JonBenet's bedroom. Hence fibres from the family being attached to it IMHO.

Scandi

 

[BBB167893]

"It was either Dr Lee or Dr Spitz who stated as TH's last week that there were 2, 2" pieces of tape on her mouth. Then I read this tape had been taken off a doll that was in JonBenet's bedroom. Hence fibres from the family being attached to it IMHO."

Maybe, but what about the cord and panty fibers?

"What makes 99.9% of the human population feel this is a "staged crime scene"?"

That would be the findings of the CASKU guys, who have studied tons of staged crimes.

 

[Amity]

That would be the findings of the CASKU guys, who have studied tons of staged crimes.

Thank you SuperDave....appreciate the response.
I'm thinking the CASKU guys have had way more experience in this than the standard detective/investigator people?
*can you tell I don't have a clue what CASKU stands for?*
But why was it So staged? Too staged? Obviously staged? What would be the psychology behind it? Anyone here into armchair Psy 101?

 

[BBB167893]

"Thank you SuperDave....appreciate the response."

Always glad to help out.

"I'm thinking the CASKU guys have had way more experience in this than the standard detective/investigator people?"

WAY,WAY more! Ever see "Silence of the Lambs?" it's about them.

"*can you tell I don't have a clue what CASKU stands for?*"

Child Abduction/Serial Killer Unit. They're part of the FBI's Behavioral Sciences.

"But why was it So staged? Too staged? Obviously staged? What would be the psychology behind it? Anyone here into armchair Psy 101?"

Well, I suppose I could give you Mike Kane's take on it: "this was a very theatrical production, and Patsy's a very theatrical person," but you'd be surprised at how elaborate staging can get? You HAVE to remember: when staging a crime, most people don't know HOW. They can only go by what they think a real crime looks like. There's no real complicated psychology behind it.