Are the Ramseys involved or not?

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

Are the Ramseys involved or not?

  • The Ramseys are somehow involved in the crime and/or cover-up

    Votes: 883 75.3%
  • The Ramseys are not involved at all in the crime or cover-up

    Votes: 291 24.8%

  • Total voters
    1,173
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Source for this?

Reportedly, Burke's testimony to the GJ was that he was awakened by his parents' hysteria, early in the morning, but he was too frightened to get out of bed and pretended to be asleep when PR, JR, & the first officer on the scene peered in on him. He did not testify to being present, with his parents, downstairs, during the 911 call.
 
BR, also admitted he was awake at the GJ. I believe that's when his parents (supposedly) learned about it for the first time. :giggle:

mason503,
nah! If BR was present at the 911 call then the parents knew full well what was taking place. The GJ was simply a circus for the R's to display their innocence credentials.

Auden, he of speech acts, seems out of place in our times, enlighten me.

.
 
My opinion and my opinion only I have doubts of the Ramsey ' s being involved. They had a long day that day and would need to be up early the next day so I have a feeling (but no proof) they both may have taken a sleep aid either prescribed or over the counter to try and fall asleep as quickly as possible in hopes of being more rested the next morning. Guilt over thinking that action may have prevented them from helping their child when she was in trouble could make them behave strangely. Then there is the ransom note. I have known a few girls who competed in pageants and we're known more for looks than brains and it's easy to picture Patsy as one of them. The note points not only to someone who watched movies quite a bit but also to someone who loved fiction and writing. I've yet to hear any facts leading me to believe she loved writing and had such an incredible imagination to come up with that extremely long note.
Then there are some facts I feel point to someone else. They had a neighbor who fancied herself a writer and who had even written a long play with a very similar plot to this murder. Jon Benet knew this neighbors husband as Santa and had told that Santa was supposed to visit with a special surprise for her after Christmas. There were stories coming from him in the media at the time that she was special to him and he certainly appeared to be thrilled with the attention the press was giving him.
My opinion is Santa and his wife may have had a key to the home (often people give one to a neighbor in case of an emergency) they decided to play out their fantasy of staging the wife's play to some extent or another. They simply unlocked the door, went to Jon Benet's room and woke her. Telling her to be quiet because it was a surprise they led her downstairs. While his wife wrote the note, Santa fed her pineapple. Then he led her to the basement for her surprise. I feel what was supposed to happen was he was supposed to be behind her and was supposed to hit her in the head just hard enough to knock her out. Then after staged it to look as if someone had broken in and attacked them his wife would hit him to try and make it look as if he were hurt and then leave. They would play out the rest of it the next day when the police showed up saying both he and Jon Benet were attacked but didn't see their attacker. If she said she thought he hit her he would correct her and say she didn't see him hit her creating doubt in her little mind.
Either he hit her too hard or he chose to molest her before knocking her out. Either way his wife walked in and helped him stage the crime to look as if it were someone else and they both left.


BOTH Santa (Bill McReynolds) and is wife Janet (both now deceased, I believe) were CLEARED. They both gave saliva, hair and writing samples and there is not one shred of evidence linking them to the crime scene. NO one with the exception of people too blind to see the R's involvement, believe they had anything to do with the death of JB.
There are things about them I find creepy. Santa had something with notches on it that represented dead children. Janet wrote that horrible book about the abuse and murder of a child in a basement. And their OWN child was abducted with a friend. Not much is known about that incident- supposedly she had to watch her friend being abused. Both girls were returned home, and I never read anything about the abuser/kidnapper being prosecuted. The girls were old enough (young teens, I believe) to identify him, and it is VERY odd they were "returned" as opposed to escaping. I always felt it had to be someone they knew and there had to be a reason why their families did not pursue it.
Still- with NO evidence at the crime scene- not a hair, fiber, print- they cannot be considered as suspects. On the contrary, there IS fiber evidence linking the parents.
 
Thank you, pukasonqo2, but I was not asking about the supposed presence of BR's voice on the 911 recording.
 
I highly doubt any of them were involved. The John Douglas presentation I saw, plus the facts he outlines in "The cases that haunt us", clinched it for me. Someone had a serious grudge against the father and retaliated by taking away one of the things most precious to him.
 
I highly doubt any of them were involved. The John Douglas presentation I saw, plus the facts he outlines in "The cases that haunt us", clinched it for me. Someone had a serious grudge against the father and retaliated by taking away one of the things most precious to him.

Let me save you a lot of trouble, Jgrabko. Anything John Douglas had to say in this case is worthless. Far as I go, he can go on the "list."
 
I highly doubt any of them were involved. The John Douglas presentation I saw, plus the facts he outlines in "The cases that haunt us", clinched it for me. Someone had a serious grudge against the father and retaliated by taking away one of the things most precious to him.

I agree with Douglas. There is too much evidence that points away from the Ramseys. I still have not settled on a motivation for the crime but I do not for one moment believe it was a Ramsey. Especially when the DNA in her underwear says it was someone else.
 
I agree with Douglas. There is too much evidence that points away from the Ramseys. I still have not settled on a motivation for the crime but I do not for one moment believe it was a Ramsey. Especially when the DNA in her underwear says it was someone else.

Too much evidence pointing away from the Ramsey's? Like what?


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Too much evidence pointing away from the Ramsey's? Like what?


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DNA in her underwear that does not belong to a Ramsey. That is clear and concise.
It is not DNA from 5 different factory workers. It is DNA that was mingled with hers in her underwear that day and was left by the killer.
 
DNA in her underwear that does not belong to a Ramsey. That is clear and concise.
It is not DNA from 5 different factory workers. It is DNA that was mingled with hers in her underwear that day and was left by the killer.

Yes DNA was found. But we know that JB was sexually assaulted sometime before Christmas. That DNA could be from the sexual assault. That person is not necessarily the person that killed her. Could be two separate crimes. You also have to remember that a lot of time passed between JBs death and the time the DNA was actually discovered. How many people handled those garments? How many people handled them without anybody knowing? This was a big case and we have already heard of the morgue delivery guy that was posing and photographing bodies. JBs delivery sheet was stolen before her body was even cold. This case was a media extravaganza and the tabloids were throwing big money around to get scoops, is it that hard to believe that someone may have secretly photographed her clothing after her death?

This term "commingled" seems to imply for some that their fluids being mixed together could have only happened at the time of death, but I have never seen anything conclusive that says if someone were to cough or sneeze on to a blood spot, the DNA would not be commingled.

If JB was wiped down with a workers sweaty shirt that may have been left at the house, could that not have left DNA on the body? And when JB bled, couldn't that DNA become commingled?

The DNA is one piece, and a small piece at that because from what I can see, there was very little of it and they were hard pressed to even get a sample that met CODIS standards. I knew you would answer my question with "DNA" because thats what IDI's always say. You said "much evidence", so bring it on. I expect to hear crickets because there is no other solid evidence of an intruder besides the microscopic specs of DNA.
 
Yes DNA was found. But we know that JB was sexually assaulted sometime before Christmas. That DNA could be from the sexual assault. That person is not necessarily the person that killed her. Could be two separate crimes. You also have to remember that a lot of time passed between JBs death and the time the DNA was actually discovered. How many people handled those garments? How many people handled them without anybody knowing? This was a big case and we have already heard of the morgue delivery guy that was posing and photographing bodies. JBs delivery sheet was stolen before her body was even cold. This case was a media extravaganza and the tabloids were throwing big money around to get scoops, is it that hard to believe that someone may have secretly photographed her clothing after her death?

This term "commingled" seems to imply for some that their fluids being mixed together could have only happened at the time of death, but I have never seen anything conclusive that says if someone were to cough or sneeze on to a blood spot, the DNA would not be commingled.

If JB was wiped down with a workers sweaty shirt that may have been left at the house, could that not have left DNA on the body? And when JB bled, couldn't that DNA become commingled?

The DNA is one piece, and a small piece at that because from what I can see, there was very little of it and they were hard pressed to even get a sample that met CODIS standards. I knew you would answer my question with "DNA" because thats what IDI's always say. You said "much evidence", so bring it on. I expect to hear crickets because there is no other solid evidence of an intruder besides the microscopic specs of DNA.

It is not known that Jonbenet was sexually assaulted before Christmas, or at any time prior to her murder and the assault of that night.
While I provisionally accept as true that Jonbenet suffered from some sort of prior abuse, no one has been able to say what form that abuse took (innocent play by children; sexual abuse by mother and/or father; corporal punishment by mother and/or father; etc).
IOWS, while we can say that “something” probably happened, we can’t say exactly what that something was.
.

One can imagine all manner of wild scenarios to explain away the DNA, but the matching tDNA makes them all very unlikely and barely believable.
.

Besides the male, foreign DNA found in incriminating locations there are 2 and ½ pages of unidentified handwriting. Say what you will about Mrs Ramsey not being excluded (she was not unique in this regard) butt none of the credible (as decided in Court) experts identified ANYONE as author.

There are un-sourced, brown, cotton fibers found in incriminating locations.

There are items missing from the house; for example: a brown, cotton item probably used to wipe the body, pages from notepad, roll of tape, length of cord, end of paint brush.

There are items not sourced to the house; for example: cord and tape, various fibers and hairs found in incriminating locations.

These are all intruder indicators. There may be innocent explanations for each and every one of them, but so far none have been found, or, at least, none have been shown to be true.

Some intruder evidence is evidence inferred; if they didn’t do it, an intruder must have. Kane said, "The things that would normally say it was somebody on the inside were certainly very much there," but, “"On the other hand, you had things that said there is no way it could have been somebody on the inside." Garnett said the case file was equivocal and, iirc, pointing in no direction; there’s no prior history, no motivation, no sense to it.

Additionally, the case against the Ramseys is weak, non-specific, nebulous and bizarre. The only consensus there seems to be is that one of them did it.
...

AK
 
It is not known that Jonbenet was sexually assaulted before Christmas, or at any time prior to her murder and the assault of that night.
While I provisionally accept as true that Jonbenet suffered from some sort of prior abuse, no one has been able to say what form that abuse took (innocent play by children; sexual abuse by mother and/or father; corporal punishment by mother and/or father; etc).
IOWS, while we can say that “something” probably happened, we can’t say exactly what that something was.

I believe it was determined that the abrasions in her vagina were not yet healed and also not fresh. I don't recall the actual time frame but it was certainly at least 48 hours. And the condition of her hymen did not come from childs play. Do not try to insult us, you are smarter than that.

One can imagine all manner of wild scenarios to explain away the DNA, but the matching tDNA makes them all very unlikely and barely believable.

Do you consider an intruder coming in to the house, writing a 2.5 page ransom note AFTER killing the victim to be more than "barely believable"

Besides the male, foreign DNA found in incriminating locations there are 2 and ½ pages of unidentified handwriting. Say what you will about Mrs Ramsey not being excluded (she was not unique in this regard) butt none of the credible (as decided in Court) experts identified ANYONE as author.

Okay, we both know that John paid his lawyer a hell of a lot to get the testimony of those two analysts thrown out. Those analysts have both testified in trials before and after the Ramsey case, so I guess there is a different standard for the rich. At the very least you have to admit that the note is NOT proof of an intruder.

There are un-sourced, brown, cotton fibers found in incriminating locations.

Was Burke searched when he left that house? Was John searched before he disappeared for 45 minutes? Were any of the Ramseys searched when they left that house? And Patsy's sister had ample opportunity to remove whatever the Ramseys didn't take with them. Another luxury for the rich only. I hope John made a big donation to the policeman ball!

There are items missing from the house; for example: a brown, cotton item probably used to wipe the body, pages from notepad, roll of tape, length of cord, end of paint brush.

Again see above

There are items not sourced to the house; for example: cord and tape, various fibers and hairs found in incriminating locations.

We do know Patsy made a purchase for the same amount as the cord from the hardware store that it was likely purchased from. These things don't do anything to prove an intruder. The Ramseys could have (and would have) removed all that stuff for the same reasons an intruder would have.


Some intruder evidence is evidence inferred; if they didn’t do it, an intruder must have. Kane said, "The things that would normally say it was somebody on the inside were certainly very much there," but, “"On the other hand, you had things that said there is no way it could have been somebody on the inside." Garnett said the case file was equivocal and, iirc, pointing in no direction; there’s no prior history, no motivation, no sense to it.

Again, I have never seen any evidence, none whatsoever, that points specifically to an intruder. The whole "no prior history" thing is a crock. Burke sent her to the hospital haver he hit her, not once but twice with a golf club. Patsy was becoming increasingly more full of rage towards JB in the weeks leading up to the murder (from her housekeeper). And the ongoing sexual abuse isn't and indication? The 911 call two nights previous isn't strange? The fact that the Ramseys lied about JB being awake when they got home from the Whites isn't strange? The fact that they lied about Burke being awake in the morning isn't strange? The fact that they didn't cooperate with police isn't strange? The fact that they hired some of the most powerful lawyers in the country within 24 hours isn't strange? The fact that John wanted to go to his business meeting minutes after finding his dead daughter isn't strange? The fact that they made up a story about their best friend, Fleet White, going nuts in Atlanta isn't strange?

I could go on and on, but whats the point, you have fragments of DNA right?

Additionally, the case against the Ramseys is weak, non-specific, nebulous and bizarre. The only consensus there seems to be is that one of them did it.

The case is only weak because like the guilty cowards they are, the three of them barricaded themselves away and refused to talk about it, unless they could pick the interviewer and have their lawyers present.
 
Yes DNA was found. But we know that JB was sexually assaulted sometime before Christmas. That DNA could be from the sexual assault. That person is not necessarily the person that killed her. Could be two separate crimes. You also have to remember that a lot of time passed between JBs death and the time the DNA was actually discovered. How many people handled those garments? How many people handled them without anybody knowing? This was a big case and we have already heard of the morgue delivery guy that was posing and photographing bodies. JBs delivery sheet was stolen before her body was even cold. This case was a media extravaganza and the tabloids were throwing big money around to get scoops, is it that hard to believe that someone may have secretly photographed her clothing after her death?

This term "commingled" seems to imply for some that their fluids being mixed together could have only happened at the time of death, but I have never seen anything conclusive that says if someone were to cough or sneeze on to a blood spot, the DNA would not be commingled.

If JB was wiped down with a workers sweaty shirt that may have been left at the house, could that not have left DNA on the body? And when JB bled, couldn't that DNA become commingled?

The DNA is one piece, and a small piece at that because from what I can see, there was very little of it and they were hard pressed to even get a sample that met CODIS standards. I knew you would answer my question with "DNA" because thats what IDI's always say. You said "much evidence", so bring it on. I expect to hear crickets because there is no other solid evidence of an intruder besides the microscopic specs of DNA.
The DNA was from the sexual assault. We have no idea when and if she was assaulted before then but we have proof that night.
What amazes me is the attempt to take the obvious facts and twist and turn them so they don't exist when clearly they do.
 
The DNA was from the sexual assault. We have no idea when and if she was assaulted before then but we have proof that night.
What amazes me is the attempt to take the obvious facts and twist and turn them so they don't exist when clearly they do.

There are many cases where meaningless foreign DNA is found. How did I twist it like it doesn't exist? I'm offering explanations as to why it does exist.
 
There are many cases where meaningless foreign DNA is found. How did I twist it like it doesn't exist? I'm offering explanations as to why it does exist.

Dna in the underwear of a dead child who was sexually assaulted is not meaningless. Not ever. And It is funny that this is the only case in the world I have ever heard of that people dismiss good DNA that is in CODIS because it does not suit their theory. The theory is supposed to come from the evidence not the other way around.
 
Dna in the underwear of a dead child who was sexually assaulted is not meaningless. Not ever. And It is funny that this is the only case in the world I have ever heard of that people dismiss good DNA that is in CODIS because it does not suit their theory. The theory is supposed to come from the evidence not the other way around.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I didn't say the DNA was meaningless, I said meaningless DNA has been found before. Did the DNA even meet CODIS standards? I thought a minimum of 10 markers were required but I can't find anything that says there were 10 markers in any of the samples?
 
The DNA was from the sexual assault. We have no idea when and if she was assaulted before then but we have proof that night.
What amazes me is the attempt to take the obvious facts and twist and turn them so they don't exist when clearly they do.

No, the only evidence of a sexual assault THAT night was that she'd been jabbed with a paint brush. The fact that she was unconscious or dead at that point leads most reasonably minded people to believe it was a attempt to mask a previous assault rather than an actual assault.
 
No, the only evidence of a sexual assault THAT night was that she'd been jabbed with a paint brush. The fact that she was unconscious or dead at that point leads most reasonably minded people to believe it was a attempt to mask a previous assault rather than an actual assault.

That is not reasonable that is science fiction.
The problem is until people looking at this case do it without the lenses of trying to hang people out to dry and look at the facts and evidence and ONLY the facts and evidence and do not try to erase real evidence like DNA that has no place in a little girls underwear except for the fact that she was just sexually assaulted and KILLED, this will cease to be anything worth talking about.
 
That is not reasonable that is science fiction.
The problem is until people looking at this case do it without the lenses of trying to hang people out to dry and look at the facts and evidence and ONLY the facts and evidence and do not try to erase real evidence like DNA that has no place in a little girls underwear except for the fact that she was just sexually assaulted and KILLED, this will cease to be anything worth talking about.

Science fiction? Thats not really a good argument. I assume you have some kind of evidence that anything more than a paintbrush assault happened that night, because I've never seen it.
 
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