Are the Ramseys involved or not?

[DeeDee249]

Try to remember the total panic that the parents were in that night. This was no premeditated crime. This was an unintended (which is NOT the same as accidental) death, and they were in full adrenaline panic mode. If they reported her simply as missing with no RN, it would look just as suspicious, being found in her own home. The RN provided an excuse for the dead body (she was killed because they disobeyed the RN and called police) as well as pointing blame in several directions: the reference to a "small foreign faction" pointed to someone with a grudge against the US or Lockheed (JR's Access Graphics' parent company). The bonus amount pointed to a disgruntled employee. The Rs themselves pointed to several people, LHP, FW and one of JR's recently terminated employees. This RN was all over the place, which is what marks it as a fake. A REAL RN says something like this: "We got your kid. We'll call you. Call police and she dies". END. Not 3 pages more, telling the parents to be "well rested" and "use their good old-fashioned Southern common sense".
The RN seemed like a good idea at the time....

 

[LCoastMom]

Try to remember the total panic that the parents were in that night. This was no premeditated crime. This was an unintended (which is NOT the same as accidental) death, and they were in full adrenaline panic mode. If they reported her simply as missing with no RN, it would look just as suspicious, being found in her own home. The RN provided an excuse for the dead body (she was killed because they disobeyed the RN and called police) as well as pointing blame in several directions: the reference to a "small foreign faction" pointed to someone with a grudge against the US or Lockheed (JR's Access Graphics' parent company). The bonus amount pointed to a disgruntled employee. The Rs themselves pointed to several people, LHP, FW and one of JR's recently terminated employees. This RN was all over the place, which is what marks it as a fake. A REAL RN says something like this: "We got your kid. We'll call you. Call police and she dies". END. Not 3 pages more, telling the parents to be "well rested" and "use their good old-fashioned Southern common sense".
The RN seemed like a good idea at the time....

Who would have known the amount of JR's bonus outside of PR and maybe a company bookkeeper? $118,000 was one of the first things that hit me as hokey way back when (such an odd amount), I'm assuming (not a wise thing to do in this case, I know) BPD would have looked into who had access to that information ASAP. A "small foreign faction" would have asked for much more cash, disgruntled employes should have been the first to be investigated/ruled out. You're right - the note indicates panic, not a well planned and formulated extortion by any means.

Such a frustrating case. Kudos to all of you who have been seeking justice for this baby for so many years.

 

[Junebug99]

Why would John and Patsy incriminate themselves and demand the amount of JR's bonus? What about the palm print and hi tech boot print? The DNA? Rumor has it Dna under her finger nails matched DNA on her long johns. As far as previous abuse, I don't believe it for a second, Hell I completely broke my Hyman at the age of five riding a boy bike. I 100% believe an idi, I wouldn't be surprised if was the same man who attacked another little girl (14) in Colorado while her mother slept. They went to the same dance studio iirc. The mother ended up scaring the intruder away. My heart goes out to the Ramsey's, I can't imagine the Hell they have been through.

 

[mcsmom]

PMPT states Jonbenet was removed from her house in a black body bag, then Meyer states he opened a white body bag just prior to autopsy.

I always thought the body bag was an extension of the crime scene and therefore an important aspect of forensics.

Is removing the body from the crime scene body bag at the morgue something that is usually done?

 

[DeeDee249]

Why would John and Patsy incriminate themselves and demand the amount of JR's bonus? What about the palm print and hi tech boot print? The DNA? Rumor has it Dna under her finger nails matched DNA on her long johns. As far as previous abuse, I don't believe it for a second, Hell I completely broke my Hyman at the age of five riding a boy bike. I 100% believe an idi, I wouldn't be surprised if was the same man who attacked another little girl (14) in Colorado while her mother slept. They went to the same dance studio iirc. The mother ended up scaring the intruder away. My heart goes out to the Ramsey's, I can't imagine the Hell they have been through.

Read much on the case?


The palm print was PROVED to belong to Melinda Ramsey, JR's older daughter. It had nothing to do with the crime. Like ALL prints, there is no way to PROVE when they were left, but suffice it to say that MR was never a suspect in the crime and was not in Boulder that night.
Patsy & JR weren't trying to incriminate themselves by mentioning the bonus amount- what they WERE trying to do was try to infer that a disgruntled employee may have committed the crime. It backfired a bit when NO evidence of ANY kind was ever found linking any former employee to the crime.
The Hi Tec print was never sourced to an actual person, but BR himself admitted to police that he did own Hi-Tec shoes. There was never any proof of whether the boot print in the basement came from BR's sneakers or that the boot print was left at the time of the crime.
JB's hymen was ERODED, not broken. Big difference. Don't take our word for it- ask your own doctor.
The DNA evidence rumor was just that- rumor. The FACT is that the DNA under her fingernails was too degraded to be of use and the FACT is that the coroner admitted he used contaminated nail clippers on JB's nails at the autopsy.
There were healing bruises in her vagina, and inflammation (hyperemia) in addition to the eroded hymen, which were indicative of sexual abuse that took place BEFORE that day. Sorry you are unable to accept this, but there WAS prior abuse. Facts don't lie, but people do. And these people are lying.

 

[DeeDee249]

PMPT states Jonbenet was removed from her house in a black body bag, then Meyer states he opened a white body bag just prior to autopsy.

I always thought the body bag was an extension of the crime scene and therefore an important aspect of forensics.

Is removing the body from the crime scene body bag at the morgue something that is usually done?

The body bags we see when a body is removed from a home is usually black, but there may have been an inner white bag under that. Every morgue has their own procedures, but when a body is delivered to the morgue it is sometimes placed in a refrigerated drawer. The black body bag may belong to the police homicide dept, not the morgue, and it is possible that the morgue may transfer a body to their own bag when they take possession of it. Each time a body is handled, there is always a chance that DNA or fibers unrelated to the crime may contaminate the body. In JB's case, we already KNOW there were unsterile clippers used and some established protocols were not followed. Add this to the complete lack of preservation of the crime scene, and you can pretty much understand why we are having these discussions 15 years later.

 

[Mikebr]

Why would John and Patsy incriminate themselves and demand the amount of JR's bonus? What about the palm print and hi tech boot print? The DNA? Rumor has it Dna under her finger nails matched DNA on her long johns. As far as previous abuse, I don't believe it for a second, Hell I completely broke my Hyman at the age of five riding a boy bike. I 100% believe an idi, I wouldn't be surprised if was the same man who attacked another little girl (14) in Colorado while her mother slept. They went to the same dance studio iirc. The mother ended up scaring the intruder away. My heart goes out to the Ramsey's, I can't imagine the Hell they have been through.

I adopt the theory Patsy wrote the note. I don't think she was totally of right mind and not a sophisticated criminal. In my theory she asked for 118k because she knew it was available in a bank account. It is most likely that a bonus of this amount would be directly wired to their checking account and then transferred to some type of investment. Nobody but JR and PR would know it was still in the checking acct. It's my theory as i have stated before, the note was trying to convince JR to leave the house for the bank so PR could dump the prestaged body. JR just did not cooperate. We know the note is fake..so what was its purpose? A staged kidnapping that would be soon discovered false seems too ridiculous...it would have made some sense if PR was trying to convince JR to follow the instructions..remember it only addressed John, never Patsy..Patsy was begging John to leave the house in that note alone, without the police so she could dump the body. Makes no sense for a stranger to stage anything. Staging only helps a know suspect...well thats my opinion. Good to see more posts.

 

[SunnieRN]

I adopt the theory Patsy wrote the note. I don't think she was totally of right mind and not a sophisticated criminal. In my theory she asked for 118k because she knew it was available in a bank account. It is most likely that a bonus of this amount would be directly wired to their checking account and then transferred to some type of investment. Nobody but JR and PR would know it was still in the checking acct. It's my theory as i have stated before, the note was trying to convince JR to leave the house for the bank so PR could dump the prestaged body. JR just did not cooperate. We know the note is fake..so what was its purpose? A staged kidnapping that would be soon discovered false seems too ridiculous...it would have made some sense if PR was trying to convince JR to follow the instructions..remember it only addressed John, never Patsy..Patsy was begging John to leave the house in that note alone, without the police so she could dump the body. Makes no sense for a stranger to stage anything. Staging only helps a know suspect...well thats my opinion. Good to see more posts.

If this is true, how did JR's sweater fibers get in JonBenets bloomies? How did JR know where to find the body within minutes after he was asked to search the house with Fleet White? Why did he refuse to talk to LE for so long? Why did he hire so many lawyers, and PR people? Why did he hire lawyers not only for he Patsy and Burke, but for his former wife and children by his first marriage? And that is just a start.

 

[Mikebr]

If this is true, how did JR's sweater fibers get in JonBenets bloomies? How did JR know where to find the body within minutes after he was asked to search the house with Fleet White? Why did he refuse to talk to LE for so long? Why did he hire so many lawyers, and PR people? Why did he hire lawyers not only for he Patsy and Burke, but for his former wife and children by his first marriage? And that is just a start.

All good questions...but as i said in the earlier post i think he was either told by PR after she called 911 or he figured it out before police arrived. I think PR was covering for someone when she struck out at JBR and it could have been JR or BR..There was a lot going on in that house...but IMHO if John had been involved in the initial coverup the body would have been dumped and then the police called.

 

[Junebug99]

Dee Dee, prior sexual abuse is being debated by the experts. What about the DNA UNDER her fingernails, which matched DNA on her long johns exactly in the spot someone who was pulling them down would have touched, and let's not forget this DNA was also found in her underwear mixed with JBR's own blood. The suit case under the window, the packing peanut, I will say it again, two unidentified bootprints, you can't prove didn't belong to an intruder. The unidentified pubic/armpit hair on blanket.

 

[Junebug99]

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682463/DNA Evidence

*
Evidence Against Asian Factory Worker Source
Panty DNA Commingled with Blood. On November 19, 2002, an AP report(AP report from Internet poster Candy) stated: "But [Ramsey attorney Lin] Wood said the theory is meritless. The DNA was found commingled with blood, he said."
Possible Match with Fingernail DNA. The same AP report stated noted "its genetic markers may match evidence taken from fingernails on both of JonBenet's hands. 'There are common markers as to all three that would strongly suggest they are from the same source,' he [Lin Wood] said." According to CBS*News: "The crime lab has two spots of JonBenet's blood found on the underwear she was wearing the night of the murder. Mixed in with that blood is the DNA of an unknown person. It has taken years to isolate, but forensic scientists in Colorado now have a complete DNA profile of the killer. They know the killer is a male. What they don't know is his name. Augustin and Gray are convinced that the DNA sample belongs to JonBenet's killer, because of a small amount of matching DNA that also was found under the 6-year-old murder victim's fingernails [Emphasis added].
Panty DNA Much More Than Trace Amount. Moreover, in a November 30, 1996 letter to Westward, Carol Martin of Walnut Creek, CA, claims to have written and gotten a reply from the producer of 48 Hours to complain about their November 28 show involving Michael Tracey and Lou Smit. She asserted: "The most interesting thing the producer said was that while traces of DNA have been found in unopened packages of underwear, the foreign DNA in JonBenét's was ten to twelve times that amount."
Trip DeMuth. In a 48 Hours interview aired on November 25, 2006, Trip*DeMuth commented on the DNA evidence: "How likely is it that it would be anybody but the killer? I think it’s highly unlikely that it would be anybody else but the killer," he says.
*

 

[DeeDee249]

Dee Dee, prior sexual abuse is being debated by the experts. What about the DNA UNDER her fingernails, which matched DNA on her long johns exactly in the spot someone who was pulling them down would have touched, and let's not forget this DNA was also found in her underwear mixed with JBR's own blood. The suit case under the window, the packing peanut, I will say it again, two unidentified bootprints, you can't prove didn't belong to an intruder. The unidentified pubic/armpit hair on blanket.

There was NO pubic hair. That hair was proven YEARS ago to be a hair from the forearm of Patsy Ramsey. Please read some updated info on the case.
FW moved the suitcase under the window himself, and told police so.
NONE of the fingernail DNA was able to be used, as the coroner used unsterile nail clippers to obtain it. BOTH parents touched those waistbands. Patsy said she put them on JB and JR carried her up holding her around the waist.
No one can prove who the bootprints belong to, ever. They are gone, along with the possible matching BR shoes.
I would bet ANY house has a packing peanut in the basement. No one would seriously consider a packing peanut in a basement evidence of an intruder.

 

[DeeDee249]

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682463/DNA Evidence

*
Evidence Against Asian Factory Worker Source
Panty DNA Commingled with Blood. On November 19, 2002, an AP report(AP report from Internet poster Candy) stated: "But [Ramsey attorney Lin] Wood said the theory is meritless. The DNA was found commingled with blood, he said."
Possible Match with Fingernail DNA. The same AP report stated noted "its genetic markers may match evidence taken from fingernails on both of JonBenet's hands. 'There are common markers as to all three that would strongly suggest they are from the same source,' he [Lin Wood] said." According to CBS*News: "The crime lab has two spots of JonBenet's blood found on the underwear she was wearing the night of the murder. Mixed in with that blood is the DNA of an unknown person. It has taken years to isolate, but forensic scientists in Colorado now have a complete DNA profile of the killer. They know the killer is a male. What they don't know is his name. Augustin and Gray are convinced that the DNA sample belongs to JonBenet's killer, because of a small amount of matching DNA that also was found under the 6-year-old murder victim's fingernails [Emphasis added].
Panty DNA Much More Than Trace Amount. Moreover, in a November 30, 1996 letter to Westward, Carol Martin of Walnut Creek, CA, claims to have written and gotten a reply from the producer of 48 Hours to complain about their November 28 show involving Michael Tracey and Lou Smit. She asserted: "The most interesting thing the producer said was that while traces of DNA have been found in unopened packages of underwear, the foreign DNA in JonBenét's was ten to twelve times that amount."
Trip DeMuth. In a 48 Hours interview aired on November 25, 2006, Trip*DeMuth commented on the DNA evidence: "How likely is it that it would be anybody but the killer? I think it’s highly unlikely that it would be anybody else but the killer," he says.
*

Trip DeMuth was part of the R spin team. I discount anything he has to say. Highly unlikely? Identify the killer for me by NAME and then we'll talk.

 

[Mikebr]

There was NO pubic hair. That hair was proven YEARS ago to be a hair from the forearm of Patsy Ramsey. Please read some updated info on the case.
FW moved the suitcase under the window himself, and told police so.
NONE of the fingernail DNA was able to be used, as the coroner used unsterile nail clippers to obtain it. BOTH parents touched those waistbands. Patsy said she put them on JB and JR carried her up holding her around the waist.
No one can prove who the bootprints belong to, ever. They are gone, along with the possible matching BR shoes.
I would bet ANY house has a packing peanut in the basement. No one would seriously consider a packing peanut in a basement evidence of an intruder.

the truth was lost in the first hours of the investigation. many of our questions could have been answered but now i think the answers died with Patsy. JR is not going to tell us and BR might not even realize what he knows.

 

[Junebug99]

There was NO pubic hair. That hair was proven YEARS ago to be a hair from the forearm of Patsy Ramsey. Please read some updated info on the case.
FW moved the suitcase under the window himself, and told police so.
NONE of the fingernail DNA was able to be used, as the coroner used unsterile nail clippers to obtain it. BOTH parents touched those waistbands. Patsy said she put them on JB and JR carried her up holding her around the waist.
No one can prove who the bootprints belong to, ever. They are gone, along with the possible matching BR shoes.
I would bet ANY house has a packing peanut in the basement. No one would seriously consider a packing peanut in a basement evidence of an intruder.

Please link where it stated that it was Patsy arm hair, everything I have read says there was a unknown pubic/auxiliary hair on the blanket found with JBR. Regardless of the parents touching the waistband it wasn't their DNA. Unsterile clippers still doesn't explain why DNA under fingernail matched DNA on long johns, and mixed with blood on JBR's underwear.

 

[Junebug99]

Also there was unidentified animal hair on JBR that didn't match anything in the house. Oh and please stop telling me I should read up on the case. I have and I still find sources that say the palm print was never matched. Lots of hearsay and speculation in this case.

 

[Junebug99]

Black Duct Tape. "The black duct tape used on JonBenet's mouth has also not been sourced to defendants. (SMF P 170; PSMF P 170.) Both ends of the duct tape found on her were torn, indicating that it came from a roll of tape that had been used before. (SMF P 171; PSMF P 171.) No similar duct tape was found in the house, nor is there evidence that defendants ever used or owned such duct tape. (SMF P 172; PSMF P 172.)" (Carnes 2003:18).
Cord. "sources for the....cord used in the crime were never located, nor sourced, to defendants' home." (Carnes 2003:10).
Animal Hair on Duct Tape. "Animal hair, alleged to be from a beaver, was found on the duct tape. (SMF P 183; PSMF P 183.) Nothing in defendants' home matches the hair. (SMF P 183; PSMF P 183.)" (Carnes 2003:19).
Animal Hairs on JBR's Hands. "Dark animal hairs were found on JonBenet's hands that also have not been matched to anything in defendants' home. (SMF P 184; PSMF P 184.)" (Carnes 2003:19).
Footprints in Basement. "Several recently-made unidentified shoeprints were found in the basement, imprinted in mold growing on the basement floor. (SMF P 151; PSMF P 151.) In particular, a shoeprint of a "HI-TEC" brand mark on the sole of a shoe was found. (SMF P 152; PSMF P 152.) Defendants do not own any "HI-TEC" brand shoes, and none of the shoes found in their home match the shoeprint marks. (SMF P 153; PSMF P 153.) Another partial shoeprint was found near where JonBenet's body was found. (SMF P 155; PSMF P 155.) This shoeprint left only a partial logo. The owner of the "HI-TEC" shoe that made the shoeprints at the murder scene has never been identified. (SMF P 154, 155; PSMF P 154, 155.)" (Carnes 2003:19).
Palmprint on Wine-Cellar Door. "In addition, on the wine-cellar door, there is a 20 palmprint that does not match either of defendants' palmprints. (SMF P 156; PSMF P 156.) The individual to whom it belongs had not yet been identified. (SMF P 156; PSMF P 156.)" (Carnes 2003:19-20). Internet poster Mame asserts: "the story suggesting the handprint is confirmed to be Melinda's is just that....a story. If I recall the report came via a reporter, Charlie Brennan. Remember his footprints in the snow story??? A totally false story."
Baseball Bat. "A baseball bat not owned by the Ramseys found on the north side of the house has fibers consistent with fibers found in the carpet in the basement where JonBenet's body was found. (SMF P 185; PSMF P 185.)" (Carnes 2003:20).
Rope and Bag in JAR Bedroom. "a rope was found inside a brown paper sack in the guest bedroom on the second floor; defendants have indicated that neither of these items belonged to them. (SMF P 181; PSMF P 181.) Regardless of its ownership, there is no explanation why a bag containing a rope would be in the guest bedroom. Further, small pieces of the material on this brown sack were found in the "vacuuming" of JonBenet's bed and in the body bag that was used to transport her body (SMF P 181; PSMF P 181), thereby suggesting that either the bag had been near JonBenet or that someone who had touched the bag had also touched JonBenet." (Carnes 2003:93-94).
Brown Cotton Fibers. "Brown cotton fibers on JonBenet's body, the paintbrush, the duct tape and on the ligature were not sourced and do not match anything in the Ramsey home. (SMF P 181; PSMF P 181.) (Carnes 2003:20).
Caucasian Hair on Blanket. "Likewise, an unidentified Caucasian "pubic or auxiliary" hair, not *1357 matching any Ramsey, was found on the blanket covering JonBenet' body. (SMF P 179-180; PSMF P 179-180.)" (Carnes 2003:96).
*
http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682468/Evidence of an Intruder

 

[Junebug99]

There was NO pubic hair. That hair was proven YEARS ago to be a hair from the forearm of Patsy Ramsey. Please read some updated info on the case.
FW moved the suitcase under the window himself, and told police so.
NONE of the fingernail DNA was able to be used, as the coroner used unsterile nail clippers to obtain it. BOTH parents touched those waistbands. Patsy said she put them on JB and JR carried her up holding her around the waist.
No one can prove who the bootprints belong to, ever. They are gone, along with the possible matching BR shoes.
I would bet ANY house has a packing peanut in the basement. No one would seriously consider a packing peanut in a basement evidence of an intruder.

It matched the pking peanuts that had gatherered with other debris in the window sill.

 

[Roy23]

Also there was unidentified animal hair on JBR that didn't match anything in the house. Oh and please stop telling me I should read up on the case. I have and I still find sources that say the palm print was never matched. Lots of hearsay and speculation in this case.

I sure hope you hang around. Please have thick skin and get ready for the RDI experience. Not many of us IDI's around these parts.

 

[Junebug99]

My skin is as thick as it gets. I am shocked at outright lies on this board. I don't understand why people continue to point fingers at the Ramseys when it's obvious that it was an intruder. The DA admits it, a judged who looked at every single piece of evidence (true evidence) said it points to an intruder. Lou Smit a well respected and successful crime solver said an intruder did it, the only people who stated other wise was the Barney Fife like BPD, and the majority on this board.