Armchair Psych discussion of Jodi Arias

[shelley921]

Children are held back to give them more time to mature. Not because they are unintelligent. Behavior that is immature could have been a factor. You can hold an unintelligent child back every year and he might never catch up. The smart ones sometimes are immature and/or delayed in fine motor skills or they may have other developmental delays that just need time to resolve.

I just remembered hearing that Jodi was held back in kindergarten. I would be really curious to know why, she is not unintelligent, in fact I think she probably learns really quickly. I'm inclined to believe it was more behavior relateted, maybe she was one of those kids who was all over the place; couldn't sit still, was constantly bothering their neighbor or disrupting the class. I would love for more information to come to light about her childhood.

 

[slanda]

As more of JA's parents' tapes are being released, I think it's obvious now that they were/are heartbroken.

Aaaack! Where are the tapes in their entirety! Is HLN holding them and just releasing bits? And where are the 600 journal entries that they are now showing?

 

[Donatella]

Children are held back to give them more time to mature. Not because they are unintelligent. Behavior that is immature could have been a factor. You can hold an unintelligent child back every year and he might never catch up. The smart ones sometimes are immature and/or delayed in fine motor skills or they may have other developmental delays that just need time to resolve.

Not sure if I did this quoting right but here goes....
My daughter's school had a pre-first class between kinder and first. She was recommended for the class because she was an April birthday and incredibly quiet and shy. The 14 kids were a mix of immaturity, learning differences and behavior issues but all were smart. Kids are held back for many reasons--we can speculate but can't really know.

 

[SassyBrat]

I'm reading over on the media thread.
Travis was killed on June 4th but wasn't supposed to leave for Cancun until June 10th? Nobody missed him during the five days in between?

Often there seems to be weird circumstances in cases that go beyond the crime.

I agree and have wondered this for a long time!:twocents:

 

[Woe.be.gone]

( :what::laugh::laugh: I had to laugh at this because you were able to subtlely nudge the underbelly of the truth in. ) In any case, it was Travis who went to the bishop about Jodi, which was why he was on probation. God knows what else they were holding over eachother's heads.

Really? I wasn't aware that Travis went to talk to a bishop. He was on probation? Geesh, it's a religious organization, not prison. :moo:
JA seems to reverse a lot of facts as she claims* she's the only one who talked to a bishop but had encouraged TA to do so too - I know, liar, liar pants on fire!

I'm trying to go over all the evidence I missed - time consuming - as I'm only as far as the top of page 15 in the media thread.

There's a little hinky business surrounding a few of the Legal business peeps but to what extent I haven't a clue. :moo:

*per her trial testimony (per my memory!)

 

[shelley921]

Not sure if I did this quoting right but here goes....
My daughter's school had a pre-first class between kinder and first. She was recommended for the class because she was an April birthday and incredibly quiet and shy. The 14 kids were a mix of immaturity, learning differences and behavior issues but all were smart. Kids are held back for many reasons--we can speculate but can't really know.

Do you feel it was a good decision for your daughter?

I think there are several factors to consider before retaining any student, but I do believe strongly that the readiness to learn skills need to be in place. Regardless of how capable academically a child is, if he's not able to access the curriculum by sitting, listening, and following directions, then he won't be able to either build upon his academic skills or to show what he is capable of. It's a tough call. Parents must think about whether their child will be able to handle the increased expectations in first grade.

Two points in favor of retention: 1. My understanding is that the research has generally shown that the oldest children in a class do better than the youngest children. 2. Better to retain earlier than later. Social pressures will be much greater as the child grows older and he will be much more likely to feel ashamed of staying behind.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I agree and have wondered this for a long time!:twocents:

Yes, regarding roommates; even if not close, you'd think a routine would have developed and if someone wasn't around for five days or so, someone would investigate his whereabouts. If TA's plans had changed and he left early, you'd think he'd communicate with one of them - leave a note or something.
Thinking . . . where was his dog during this time?

Here I go thinking again and causing trouble! :facepalm:

 

[SMK]

Really? I wasn't aware that Travis went to talk to a bishop. He was on probation? Geesh, it's a religious organization, not prison. :moo:
)

That is debatable. But yes, he was deemed "temple unworthy".

 

[SMK]

Yes, regarding roommates; even if not close, you'd think a routine would have developed and if someone wasn't around for five days or so, someone would investigate his whereabouts. If TA's plans had changed and he left early, you'd think he'd communicate with one of them - leave a note or something.
Thinking . . . where was his dog during this time?

Here I go thinking again and causing trouble! :facepalm:

Was my explanation not good enough for you?:furious: LOL
The dog.....good question!!!:what:

So what would theories be? No one cared? He was secretive? I'll bite....

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

bbm ~ Me too. As many of us have shared, we've been hurt in one way or another yet no one has said they responded to the hurt by trying to kill the person who hurt them. Now, three months into the trial, JA's mental health issues are coming to light but will not to be shared with the jurors, right? My thoughts have leaned towards JA snapping as a result of being rejected. But I keep in mind all the odd coincidences there were as she prepared for her trip to TA's too.

If JA is indeed bipolar (I acknowledge those who are teaching us that peeps with bipolar usually will harm themselves versus physically harming another person) with comorbidity, she may have gone into one of those prolonged manic states when she plotted and carried out her final deed against TA. She doesn't love him anymore, she hates him imo. That's why she's not sad about what she did to him.

I don't want to see JA get out of jail free, but the defense should have explained her mental health issues imo. Something is obviously terribly wrong with a person who carries out revenge to the point that JA did.

Her mom and dad reacted/responded in ways that seems off to me when talking to the detective. The mom appeared defensive and the dad sort of nonchalant. Also both were quick to throw JA under the bus. Have they always been that way or had they arrived at their wits' end by 2008? Afterall, JA was already twenty-seven years old when she killed Travis.

BBM: Oh my, Woe----bipolar and BPD are not the same. I am sensing you are mixing them up because BPD is a personality disorder and as such there is often comorbidity. Bipolar (formerly known as Manic Depression) is a totally different diagnosis.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

http://forensis.org/PDF/published/2007_AntisocialPerso.pdf

This scholastic article is about treating those (or the inability to treat) with ASPD & or Psycopothy.

I think this analysis is useful because it discusses the criterion for ASPDs and there is a direct correlation between ASPD and the most negative traits of a Narcisist and one glaring difference.

There has been plenty discussion here about Narcissism and I believe everyone is correct when hypothesizing that JA is a Narcisist. However, she's only narcissistic because grandiosity, charm, glibness, pathological lying, cunning/manipulation, lack of remorse or guilt, shallow affect, callousness and lack of empathy, parasitic lifestyle, poor self behavioral controls, promiscuity, early behavioral problems, unrealistic goals, impulsiveness, and a co start need for stimulation/arousal are ALL and Every characteristic for Psycopothy and ASPD. Thus, She seems narcissistic but is truly Anti-Social.

She personally can be attributed to every criteria. That is pretty impressive and astonishingly scary.

I think she also fits the need for constant stimulation because if you watch her in the interrigation room, she rips labels off water bottles, constantly messes with every inanimate object in the room, and her bizarre behavior in general.

How could this type of diagnosis be missed? Especially if someone is blatantly acting this way?

Also, this article goes on to say that those who are able to form some sort of attachment, like narcissists, are more able to be treated in some way. Because severe psychopathy and ASPD's do not form attachments and that is the glaring reason treatment usually is not an option, nor does it even work. Basically, they have nothing to negotiate with. Usually everyone has some type of emotional currency but these people don't. Which is why her parents, even if they tried, probably could have done nothing for her. She might have charmed her way out of a 72 hour hold, or possibly hurt them. And there is no proven behavioral or pharmaceutical treatment for those with ASPD.**** (If you remember, or Read the article that Narcisists have plenty to negotiate with, they have emotional currency, the reason for their narcissism is completely different than the reason of narcissism displayed by the Anti-social personality.)****

I think this article is imperative to read because it answers many of the questions that have been posed here and helps us understand her type of crazy.

I do wonder though, did the defensive and or prosecution not want her to be diagnosed with ASPD for fear of prejudice by the jury/ or the prosecution didn't want her getting away with anything for reasons of insanity?
I am aware that there are two different definitions regarding sanity; and I believe even though she's probably AS, that the court would deem her sane because at the time of the murder, she knew and demonstrated the differences between right and wrong. Yet, many AS know between right and wrong, they just could care less.

BBM: It would not matter if they had diagnosed JA as ASPD, BPD, or NPD because they are all AXIS II disorders and would *NOT* be an insanity plea or fit the criteria to take the death penalty off the table. She would have to be diagnosed with an AXIS I disorder (and if she had money and a super-shark lawyer, I feel they might be able to prove Dissociative Disorder which is an AXIS I disorder and she'd not be fighting for her life but rather, fighting for which type of manslaughter....moo.)
Hope this helps....

 

[Woe.be.gone]

So many posts of people wondering why parents did not get help for their mentally ill daughter. It is here that I wish to tell you of my experience with life with a personality disorder or the mosaic of this with emotional disorders. My brother and I are both adopted from different birth parents. He is 16 months older than I. As a toddler he displayed personality disorder traits. My grandmother ( a nurse) wanted them to send him back to the children's aid society. My parents did not as they correctly viewed him as human not an animal that you can return. In kindergarden my brother broke hi s hand hitting an other boy at party. His violent outbreaks continued and grew in intensity and severity. He was bought in every type of counseling my parents could find. He was receded to psychiatrists and refused to attend sessions. All the while my parents and I lived in a was zone terrorized by a teenaged boy that was physically strong. He broke my dad's rips, punched and hit us, broke furniture punched wholes in the walls. My parents continued to get help for him everywhere. When I was 17 my parents were on holiday and he brutally beat a girl. The night before he had pinned me on the ground but I was able to de-escalate him and avoided a beating. He served 7 years in jail and blamed me as I was witness to the girls beating and testified. He was never allowed in our home again. His behavior continues to this day. My parents died prematurely

before my 40th birthday and I know that it had to do with life with my
brother. We all lived with knowledge that people thought my parents raised him wrong and never sought help. It has caused damage to me too. The point of my post is that there are family victims of those charged with crime. Make no assumptions about her parents by the small clips we have seen this today.
Sorry for long post.

Your story is sad, frustrating and probably more common than we think. It's an example of why I hate to judge any parent especially when speaking from a place of having no first hand knowledge of the people involved.

Years ago I knew a woman who I grew to admire very much. She had raised two kids and had a third younger one who was a teenager at the time. It's a long story as to how her husband and her came to adopt him when he was already an older child. She shared with our group the struggles they were encountering because of his behavioral issues. I know how much she cared about this boy, all the effort both she and her husband put into trying to get him appropriate help and how hard she prayed for him. There is no doubt in my mind that if he ended up ruining his own life, it had nothing to do with his parents' input into his life. They moved away first and then we moved away from there afterward and, as often happens with military families, we lost touch. I've often wondered how everything turned out as the boy would be a man by now.

 

[shelley921]

This is an excellent article by Janice Harper. People always think of abuse being done by men on women but women can be violent abusers too. Jodi was a
jealous, obsessed stalker who was capable of anything. Why would any woman drive over a thousand miles to seek out a man that had abused her in the past?
Travis and Jodi were never married, heck they were not really even in a "relationship" for very long- there was no divorce involved or children or custody issues & thus no court proceedings.

There were no reports of any abuse ever made and everything shows that she was a willing partner in the sex games.
If Travis had abused her, she certainly would never drive a thousand miles to be abused again. She went there to kill him.

Her defense is such an insult to real victims of abuse.

How many men are abused and do not report it as it is not socially acceptable? Perhaps this case will bring male abuse issues to the forefront.

We all know Jodi's entire life is a lie. It's so disgusting to hear so called " experts" condemn the victim in this case and help drag him through the mud -- especially when it's all based on Jodi's b.s. stories.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/janice-harper/the-burning-bed_b_2981003.html

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Was my explanation not good enough for you?:furious: LOL
The dog.....good question!!!:what:

So what would theories be? No one cared? He was secretive? I'll bite....

LOL - good enough but incomplete!
Maybe because they were three boys, umm I mean, men. :what:

 

[Woe.be.gone]

BBM: Oh my, Woe----bipolar and BPD are not the same. I am sensing you are mixing them up because BPD is a personality disorder and as such there is often comorbidity. Bipolar (formerly known as Manic Depression) is a totally different diagnosis.

Oh, I can't keep the different terms straight. Why do they have to begin with the same letter?
I typed bipolar because I heard JA's mom use the term "bipolar" to the detective while she was being interviewed. I don't recall her exact words but she said they had received calls by JA's friends in the middle of the night and that something about her bipolar behavior.

Actually, and I haven't thought this through, but I think it's pretty low to release those tapes if the information is not going to be included during the trial. Was AL made aware that JA has a mental health condition? If not, that's not good. Has JA ever received a diagnosis? This is bad form regarding the media.

 

[Keyra6]

Juror #5 talks

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/regio...pdate-juror-kicked-off-trial-issues-statement

 

[JanPat]

I feel bad for her family and parents. Could you imagine, being that she has ASPD, how incredibly difficult it would be to deal with her? They seemed reasonable enough and honest.

Unless there is evidence to do so, I personally think it's not fair to judge and attack the families of the deranged. They probably are victims also. It's silly, crude and very easy to attack these people. It seems for some, harder not to.

Yes, they sure do have responsibility for their daughter, but I'm sure no one could have foreseen this. I agree with lil Buddy.

As the parent of a child with issues similar to JA, I can’t thank you enough for your compassion. I can attest that many parents in this situation do everything they possibly can and then some. Could JA’s parents have foreseen this? Probably. Could they have prevented it? Doubtful…and now their worst nightmares are being realized.
My 16 year old DD was diagnosed bipolar comorbid with ADHD at age 8. That DX has recently been revised to ADHD with major depression and “emerging borderline traits.” Rest assured, that “emerging borderline” will officially become BPD when she reaches 18! We have been on the treatment rollercoaster for 8 years. Acute hospitalizations, partial hospitalizations, residential treatment centers, constant therapies, and untold medication trials. During one of her suicidal bouts, my DH & I alternated shifts for 8 days so that someone was watching her at all times because there was no adolescent psych bed available within 75 miles!

Many doctors and therapists will not even accept BPD’s as patients. We’ve been fortunate enough to find a skilled adolescent DBT therapist who partners with a good psych for medications. 9 months in to that pairing we’re seeing progress. But even the right therapies don’t help if the patient won’t engage. She is actively working her therapies so we’re hopeful she’ll be able to turn things around before the personality becomes cast in stone.

It’s incredibly painful watching her torment. We have 2 other children who have grown in to young adults with solid relationships, successful careers, and personal satisfaction. My DD asks--same genetic pool and same home environment-What happened to make me so “different”? I imagine JA’s parents have asked themselves these same questions…

 

[slanda]

As the parent of a child with issues similar to JA, I can’t thank you enough for your compassion. I can attest that many parents in this situation do everything they possibly can and then some. Could JA’s parents have foreseen this? Probably. Could they have prevented it? Doubtful…and now their worst nightmares are being realized.
My 16 year old DD was diagnosed bipolar comorbid with ADHD at age 8. That DX has recently been revised to ADHD with major depression and “emerging borderline traits.” Rest assured, that “emerging borderline” will officially become BPD when she reaches 18! We have been on the treatment rollercoaster for 8 years. Acute hospitalizations, partial hospitalizations, residential treatment centers, constant therapies, and untold medication trials. During one of her suicidal bouts, my DH & I alternated shifts for 8 days so that someone was watching her at all times because there was no adolescent psych bed available within 75 miles!

Many doctors and therapists will not even accept BPD’s as patients. We’ve been fortunate enough to find a skilled adolescent DBT therapist who partners with a good psych for medications. 9 months in to that pairing we’re seeing progress. But even the right therapies don’t help if the patient won’t engage. She is actively working her therapies so we’re hopeful she’ll be able to turn things around before the personality becomes cast in stone.

It’s incredibly painful watching her torment. We have 2 other children who have grown in to young adults with solid relationships, successful careers, and personal satisfaction. My DD asks--same genetic pool and same home environment-What happened to make me so “different”? I imagine JA’s parents have asked themselves these same questions…

Hi there <3

I am so sorry about what's happening. I am not sure I have any words to console you other than you are absolutely amazing parents and your daughter is blessed to have patient and loving parents to help her along her way.

Sometimes, people say: "Everything happens for a reason..." But I'm not so sure about that anymore. There isn't always a reason, it just is, and there isn't anything we can seem to do anything about but just accept the circumstances, because fighting can make it worse.

I applaud you for being courageous and having a lot of insight with your daughter. What you do for her everyday is amazing and it also seems to me that you might also to be the type of person that wouldn't do it any other way.

Through your eyes, I am able to have compassion for the families as well those who have mental illnesses. I don't blame JA's parents. I actually never did. She was an adult when she did this and yes, she may be a reflection of them, but some of us are quite aware that we don't know the entire story and is she has ASPD, then there isn't a lot anyone could have done. My hearts hurts for them too, they are victims also.

Thank you for feeling comfortable enough to share your story and I wish you, your daughter, and the rest of your family love and many blessings. xoxo

 

[Nancy_Drew]

Narcissists do not like to be outed for who they are. Travis was going to out Jodi. For what? some kind of scams.

Does anyone know? I think that is what sealed his death warrant.

I think she was threatening him with the sex tape... and by that point he was probably pretty sure that Jodi was the one who slashed his tires and was stalking him too...

Travis was trying to finally rid himself of her once and for all, and Jodi didn't Rilke that at all...

We know he knew she was a sociopath because of the texts he sent her at the end of may... He was DONE WITH HER! He also told her that her "account with him had ended" and she needed to start paying him back...

Here are some of those texts..

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/album.php?albumid=1724

 

[trucrimefest]

My heart goes out to all of you whose lives have been touched by mental illness. I am BPD, BP 1, PTSD and ASPD behavior (?) I've read that symptoms of bpd subside in your 40s. Here's hoping.