Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #3

[jjenny]

I agree.
They should have either cleared her or charged her at this point, considering that if it was in fact a premeditated crime, it was premeditated murder of 3, and an attempted murder of 1.

Having suspicion and being able to prove it are two different things. This case is going to hinge on forensic evidence such as toxin analysis which takes time to obtain.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Of course and she just happened to be fine and then add in the fact she has outright lied and tried to cover her tracks.

ETA - her ex husband clearly also called her out on the deaths and accused her as well. He was married to her so clearly believes she is capable of such a horrific crime as well.

The problem is, supposing she is quite an emotionally immature and maybe a bit unstable person, she could have knee-jerk lied to cover her guilt about picking the wrong mushrooms.

Imagine the scenario where she's foraged fresh mushrooms (although people say it's out of season) -or- she's used dried powdered mushrooms that were long since foraged and dehydrated and powdered and she knows this very clearly. But she did *not* intentionally set out to kill her friends and relatives... in a state of shock and mortification, she's lied and said she got mushrooms in the shop, she's dumped the dehydrator, she's hoping and praying it's all going to stop and she'll wake up tomorrow and it's all not true... in a childlike mindset.

Now she's all over the place, she knows she's 'guilty' but she knows she's also 'not guilty'. She can't backtrack her stories because she's trapped in her lies.

As a theory that could work but it would leave one question only - why did she not get poisoned if she ate the same meal? Do we even know if she ate any food at the meal? She surely would have taste tested her own cooking whilst preparing the meal? Maybe she didn't eat on the day? Maybe she was off her food with the anxiety of it all? Maybe she really did get a little bit poorly and really did need the hospital treatment but she wasn't as badly affected because she's younger and didn't eat as much? So many questions.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I agree.
They should have either cleared her or charged her at this point, considering that if it was in fact a premeditated crime, it was premeditated murder of 3, and an attempted murder of 1.

They can't charge her as they've got no proof. Even if she's guilty as heck and absolutely did this and it's 100% pre-meditated, there's a possibility she could never be charged -or- walk free from charges because of a lack of proof. It does happen.

 

[CityKid]

Hi CityKid, I don't understand what you mean saying she lied to police with regard to the driving incident? And what do you mean that she refused to give her details after fleeing? It seems she must have identified herself fairly promptly if she did an alcohol test within three hours. (And I don't know what DWI means so perhaps part of the answer is in that.)

DWI is driving while intoxicated. From the link (unfortunately the full story is paywalled at The Australian https://www.theaustralian.com.au/su...amic-low-control-score&V21spcbehaviour=append), she hit someone's property, left the scene, when the police eventually stopped her she wouldn't give her name. Car was also unregistered. I should have said "was dishonest with" the police rather than "lied" but she was certainly not forthcoming with info. I don't know if the delay in the drink-driving test is normal (that's enough time to metabolise some alcohol for sure) but she was twice the legal limit even after three hours. That charge was rolled over into another larger charge.

 

[Salah11]

The problem is, supposing she is quite an emotionally immature and maybe a bit unstable person, she could have knee-jerk lied to cover her guilt about picking the wrong mushrooms.

Imagine the scenario where she's foraged fresh mushrooms (although people say it's out of season) -or- she's used dried powdered mushrooms that were long since foraged and dehydrated and powdered and she knows this very clearly. But she did *not* intentionally set out to kill her friends and relatives... in a state of shock and mortification, she's lied and said she got mushrooms in the shop, she's dumped the dehydrator, she's hoping and praying it's all going to stop and she'll wake up tomorrow and it's all not true... in a childlike mindset.

Now she's all over the place, she knows she's 'guilty' but she knows she's also 'not guilty'. She can't backtrack her stories because she's trapped in her lies.

As a theory that could work but it would leave one question only - why did she not get poisoned if she ate the same meal? Do we even know if she ate any food at the meal? She surely would have taste tested her own cooking whilst preparing the meal? Maybe she didn't eat on the day? Maybe she was off her food with the anxiety of it all? Maybe she really did get a little bit poorly and really did need the hospital treatment but she wasn't as badly affected because she's younger and didn't eat as much? So many questions.

Sorry there is no way she would have ate the same meal and then it wouldn’t have affected her. She is old and plump so she definitely isn’t fighting fit.


It simply makes no sense she cooked the meal and escaped any true illness. It simply doesn’t add imo

 

[JLZ]

DWI is driving while intoxicated. From the link (unfortunately the full story is paywalled at The Australian https://www.theaustralian.com.au/subscribe/news/1/?sourceCode=TAWEB_WRE170_a&dest=https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/poisoning-suspect-erin-patterson-convicted-five-times-for-highspeed-drunken-rampage/news-story/c3199f79afb93bc40f96f1295b290536&memtype=anonymous&mode=premium&v21=dynamic-low-control-score&V21spcbehaviour=append), she hit someone's property, left the scene, when the police eventually stopped her she wouldn't give her name. Car was also unregistered. I should have said "was dishonest with" the police rather than "lied" but she was certainly not forthcoming with info. I don't know if the delay in the drink-driving test is normal (that's enough time to metabolise some alcohol for sure) but she was twice the legal limit even after three hours. That charge was rolled over into another larger charge.

Ah. I can't read The Australian. I see, so there were actually two instances of concealment, when she left the scene of the damage and when she was stopped by police. Does it say the reason she was driving an unregistered car while heavily intoxicated? Just her individual preference?

 

[CityKid]

Ah. I can't read The Australian. I see, so there were actually two instances of concealment, when she left the scene of the damage and when she was stopped by police. Does it say the reason she was driving an unregistered car while heavily intoxicated? Just her individual preference?

I can't read it either (but I'm getting a chuckle out of "personal preference"). I wish I could find a comprehensive story with charging documents (or whatever the term for them is in Australia).

 

[LordCyrus]

I'm not accusing anyone here, but in a case like this if a person of interest is considered a flight risk and the investigation is slow, what steps would law enforcement take to prevent them liquidating assets and leaving the country?

 

[SouthAussie]

I'm not accusing anyone here, but in a case like this if a person of interest is considered a flight risk and the investigation is slow, what steps would law enforcement take to prevent them liquidating assets and leaving the country?

They would alert the border authorities. If they are forced into an early arrest, they will likely do that. imo

VICPOL arrested the (previously unknown to us) suspect in the Russell Hill/Carol Clay case because they thought he might be planning to end his life. They had secretly installed listening devices in his home and heard conversation that set them on edge about that. So they arrested him and got him in custody. They may not have been quite ready to do that, but now they have to run with it.

I don't believe that the police would not be watching EP's every movement, in one way or another, if she is the primary suspect in this case and is not yet charged. Possible, but not probable. imo

 

[JLZ]

They would alert the border authorities. If they are forced into an early arrest, they will likely do that. imo

VICPOL arrested the (previously unknown to us) suspect in the Russell Hill/Carol Clay case because they thought he might be planning to end his life. They had secretly installed listening devices in his home and heard conversation that set them on edge about that. So they arrested him and got him in custody. They may not have been quite ready to do that, but now they have to run with it.

Or finding something else to charge them with might be an option. Enough to get their passport and a cash surety.

 

[RickshawFan]

The problem is, supposing she is quite an emotionally immature and maybe a bit unstable person, she could have knee-jerk lied to cover her guilt about picking the wrong mushrooms.

Imagine the scenario where she's foraged fresh mushrooms (although people say it's out of season) -or- she's used dried powdered mushrooms that were long since foraged and dehydrated and powdered and she knows this very clearly. But she did *not* intentionally set out to kill her friends and relatives... in a state of shock and mortification, she's lied and said she got mushrooms in the shop, she's dumped the dehydrator, she's hoping and praying it's all going to stop and she'll wake up tomorrow and it's all not true... in a childlike mindset.

Now she's all over the place, she knows she's 'guilty' but she knows she's also 'not guilty'. She can't backtrack her stories because she's trapped in her lies.

As a theory that could work but it would leave one question only - why did she not get poisoned if she ate the same meal? Do we even know if she ate any food at the meal? She surely would have taste tested her own cooking whilst preparing the meal? Maybe she didn't eat on the day? Maybe she was off her food with the anxiety of it all? Maybe she really did get a little bit poorly and really did need the hospital treatment but she wasn't as badly affected because she's younger and didn't eat as much? So many questions.

Death caps are not in season right now in AU, correct?

If she dehydrated death cap mushrooms in error a while back and then she fished them out of her mushroom supply for the purposes of the beef wellington, her whole family would have long since been dead. In her ignorance, death caps would have contaminated everything a while ago.... the dehydrator, the knives, the cutting board, the masher, the counter top, other mushrooms, silverware lying adjacent.... she wouldn't have known to be mindful.

If she knowingly used death caps, she would have been mindful about where the toxins would land, and she wouldn't have allowed them to stray far, otherwise she'd be killing people at random.

 

[JLZ]

Death caps are not in season right now in AU, correct?

If she dehydrated death cap mushrooms in error a while back and then she fished them out of her mushroom supply for the purposes of the beef wellington, her whole family would have long since been dead. In her ignorance, death caps would have contaminated everything a while ago.... the dehydrator, the knives, the cutting board, the masher, the counter top, other mushrooms, silverware lying adjacent.... she wouldn't have known to be mindful.

If she knowingly used death caps, she would have been mindful about where the toxins would land, and she wouldn't have allowed them to stray far, otherwise she'd be killing people at random.

She said after buying the dried mushrooms she kept them at her other property and only brought them home to use them up.

I think if she'd foraged them she might well have kept them at the other place until her plan matured.

 

[SouthAussie]

Death caps are not in season right now in AU, correct?

If she dehydrated death cap mushrooms in error a while back and then she fished them out of her mushroom supply for the purposes of the beef wellington, her whole family would have long since been dead. In her ignorance, death caps would have contaminated everything a while ago.... the dehydrator, the knives, the cutting board, the masher, the counter top, other mushrooms, silverware lying adjacent.... she wouldn't have known to be mindful.

If she knowingly used death caps, she would have been mindful about where the toxins would land, and she wouldn't have allowed them to stray far, otherwise she'd be killing people at random.

Apparently, Death Caps grow through autumn and into winter. In our dampest seasons of the year. We are now at the tail end of winter. Tomorrow (1st Sept) is the first day of spring.

I think that a month ago, there would have been findable Death Caps in that part of Victoria. It is a cooler, damper area. imo (IANAM - meaning I am not a mycologist )


Time of appearance: autumn and sometimes winter. Fruit bodies are abundant in wet autumns, but may not appear in drier years.

Death Cap –Amanita phalloides

Royal Botanic Gardens Victoria plays a leading role in the conservation of plants through biodiversity research, programs to protect rare and threatened plants, and the study of habitats. This work is supported by education and visitor programs about the importance of plants to life. The...

www.rbg.vic.gov.au

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Death caps are not in season right now in AU, correct?

If she dehydrated death cap mushrooms in error a while back and then she fished them out of her mushroom supply for the purposes of the beef wellington, her whole family would have long since been dead. In her ignorance, death caps would have contaminated everything a while ago.... the dehydrator, the knives, the cutting board, the masher, the counter top, other mushrooms, silverware lying adjacent.... she wouldn't have known to be mindful.

If she knowingly used death caps, she would have been mindful about where the toxins would land, and she wouldn't have allowed them to stray far, otherwise she'd be killing people at random.

The expert in the video posted earlier on this thread, was handling death caps with his bare hands. I only watched a few minutes of the video but I understand he later on addressed the risk of surface contact?

It sounds like (someone please correct me) he would have explained that surface contact is not deadly and the fungi needs to be ingested to cause problems? Otherwise I assume he would have worn gloves while making the video. So that kind of casual kitchen contamination seems unlikely? Again, please correct me as I didn't watch the full video. MOO

 

[al66pine]

What Prompted Suspicion re Mushrooms?

They suspected the DC mushrooms because of the symptoms experienced by the victims.

@jjenny
Yes, and seems it would have been extreeemely difficult for med. folks to narrow down to mushrooms so soon, if none of the patients had been able to relate that the group of 4 ate a communal meal w beef wellington (implying mushrooms) and listed other food & drink ingested at that meal (and at other meals prior to hosp. admission?)

So, imo one or more of the victims was able to tell med. personnel in ambu or hosp. about that meal. J
mo, icbw.

 

[SouthAussie]

They can't charge her as they've got no proof. Even if she's guilty as heck and absolutely did this and it's 100% pre-meditated, there's a possibility she could never be charged -or- walk free from charges because of a lack of proof. It does happen.

I agree, but I would say "not enough proof yet" (or possibly ever).

They have the facts that:
3 people died and one is now improving after a lunch at her house, prepared by her
She didn't die or become critically ill from said poisoning
The symptoms and outcomes appear to be Death Cap poisoning
EP is known/said to be a wild mushroom forager


There may well be many other facts that we are not aware of. Acrimonious relationships possibly. Actions to stop (or start) reconciliation with her ex, or perhaps her ex has a girlfriend and wants to start a new life with joint custody of the children and he was the intended primary target. All just speculation as examples.

 

[SMK777]

Death caps are not in season right now in AU, correct?

If she dehydrated death cap mushrooms in error a while back and then she fished them out of her mushroom supply for the purposes of the beef wellington, her whole family would have long since been dead. In her ignorance, death caps would have contaminated everything a while ago.... the dehydrator, the knives, the cutting board, the masher, the counter top, other mushrooms, silverware lying adjacent.... she wouldn't have known to be mindful.

If she knowingly used death caps, she would have been mindful about where the toxins would land, and she wouldn't have allowed them to stray far, otherwise she'd be killing people at random.

Good observation.

 

[Forest_Wood]

As a theory that could work but it would leave one question only - why did she not get poisoned if she ate the same meal? Do we even know if she ate any food at the meal? She surely would have taste tested her own cooking whilst preparing the meal? Maybe she didn't eat on the day? Maybe she was off her food with the anxiety of it all? Maybe she really did get a little bit poorly and really did need the hospital treatment but she wasn't as badly affected because she's younger and didn't eat as much? So many questions.

Well, didn't she go into the hospital and was transferred to a different hospital? That would be easily verifiable for authorities.

Apparently, mushrooms have to be taken in moderation and over time for your system to handle more. "Some people will get sick from a correctly identified and correctly handled edible mushroom if they eat too much of it." -- Excerpt from the book I'm reading about foraging. He says you must limit yourself to 1-2 TBSP to begin with (or enough for an omelet).

So possibly she was more used to eating mushrooms and therefore not as affected as the others. Just speculation. MOO.

 

[JLZ]

Well, didn't she go into the hospital and was transferred to a different hospital? That would be easily verifiable for authorities.

Apparently, mushrooms have to be taken in moderation and over time for your system to handle more. "Some people will get sick from a correctly identified and correctly handled edible mushroom if they eat too much of it." -- Excerpt from the book I'm reading about foraging. He says you must limit yourself to 1-2 TBSP to begin with (or enough for an omelet).

So possibly she was more used to eating mushrooms and therefore not as affected as the others. Just speculation. MOO.

Edible mushrooms can make you sick but AFAIK they don't kill your liver.

Edit: Indeed if they did, they wouldn't be classed as edible.

 

[Forest_Wood]

Edible mushrooms can make you sick but AFAIK they don't kill your liver.

Edit: Indeed if they did, they wouldn't be classed as edible.

I don't know if bacteria formed on mushrooms could contribute. I'm sure we will learn from the experts called in.
The point I was trying to make was that perhaps her immune system was built up to handle the toxin better. MOO.