Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #5 *Arrest*

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Interesting. So are you implying she may have foraged for them and accidentally poisoned them? Or someone else did?


If one of the victims brought a mushroom dish, why wouldn't the accused suspect publicly say so? Wouldn't that lighten the public suspicion if she could substantiate that one of the guests brought a mushroom salad to lunch?

You didn't ask the questions to me but in response, I would say it could be likely EP (possibly in company of other people and / or her children) foraged mushrooms that were used and she has now accidentally killed people. However, that theory leaves a lot of questions and contradictions.

But regarding if the guests or someone else not present contributed something to the dinner - this is something I'm personally fascinated in. One would imagine that had this been the case EP would have stated it openly in her written statement -but- bearing in mind the focus was on her Beef Wellington and actual mushrooms, she may not have thought about other substances.

Did someone else in the household make a carafe of home made lemonade? Did someone send a gift of chocolates and they all ate one with their coffee?

It makes little to no sense that one of the people invited as a guest to the meal is 'the murderer' as they have now either also killed themselves or made themselves gravely ill but it's still a possibility. Also did other people have access to EP's home, ie does she rent part of the home, does she have any staff - gardeners or cleaners or groundskeepers - who have it in for her family or do the kids have many friends and associates coming over?

 

[Ellery84]

it would have to be proven that the four didn't eat any other food in common anywhere else and that there is no other party who wishes to maliciously harm them, or accidentally harmed them, or played a prank that went wrong

They died from mushroom poisoning. Death caps, IIRC… I think L. E. could possibly charge her based on a few witness statements and some epidemiology data from the Health Department, but they might wait to build a stronger case, and they might want to push the charges up from manslaughter to murder…

How would you build a stronger case? I’d talk to more experts, search the tip more thoroughly, talk to more witnesses, and get all of my medical and forensic evidence assembled in a brief. Maybe I would involve some other agencies and even pay some private consultants if budget allowed.

Then I would put a surveillance op in place, I’d get some help from the AFP regarding mobile phone pings, phone towers, and maybe get a warrant to use ground penetrating radar around Erins yard(s) to see what she may have buried. Utensils? Evidence? Who knows.

All jmo

I want to stress that Erin could be totally innocent.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

They died from mushroom poisoning. Death caps, IIRC… I think L. E. could possibly charge her based on a few witness statements and some epidemiology data from the Health Department, but they might wait to build a stronger case, and they might want to push the charges up from manslaughter to murder…

How would you build a stronger case? I’d talk to more experts, search the tip more thoroughly, talk to more witnesses, and get all of my medical and forensic evidence assembled in a brief. Maybe I would involve some other agencies and even pay some private consultants if budget allowed.

Then I would put a surveillance op in place, I’d get some help from the AFP regarding mobile phone pings, phone towers, and maybe get a warrant to use ground penetrating radar around Erins yard(s) to see what she may have buried. Utensils? Evidence? Who knows.

All jmo

I want to stress that Erin could be totally innocent.

we know they died of DC mushroom poisoning but that doesn't prove EP did it - there is no 'manslaughter' charge as there is zero evidence that we know of yet.

The four could have been targeted by someone else or they could have been victims of their own misadventure. This is going to be an impossible case to press unless LE have a lot of info up their sleeves.
Personally I think they should have taken seizure of the property and land to search and test, gone straight to analysing the plumbing. If EP had been preparing DC mushrooms and served them, there would be DNA traces and residue still left in the used water run offs and drains maybe back then but not now. Also they could have searched the grounds or locations where DC mushrooms could have been picked (if they had been picked recently).

 

[SouthAussie]

In The Australian article about Heather's memorial service, it says that at the end of the service they thanked the police ... there were 3 police officers there, but they couldn't tell if anyone from the Homicide Squad was there.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/leongatha-mushroom-poisoning-victims-public-memorial-service/news-story/5c199d7db0956e0b5658ccdb1f8c0022?amp

 

[Salah11]

In The Australian article about Heather's memorial service, it says that at the end of the service they thanked the police ... there were 3 police officers there, but they couldn't tell if anyone from the Homicide Squad was there.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/leongatha-mushroom-poisoning-victims-public-memorial-service/news-story/5c199d7db0956e0b5658ccdb1f8c0022?amp

That’s lovely and the family are obviously happy with the work going on in the background

May justice be served!!

 

[Baby baby Jane]

If she foraged for the mushrooms, I'd expect that she would have proudly told her lunch guests about that. People are saying she and her ex and the whole family enjoyed foraging for fresh mushrooms. I'd think it would be a topic of conversation as she was serving her beautiful entree.

If so, I'd think the victims would have told the investigators about the foraged mushrooms during the hospital interviews about the source of their illness.

EP has stated that she bought two types of mushrooms from 2 different stores. But no one else, besides her unlucky guests, have been reported as poison Death Cap victims. So the is probably not the truth.

If this was an innocent mistake and she picked the wrong ones, why not come clean and clear this up? I think she is waiting to see if she is going to be charged, and if so, she might say she accidentally picked the poison ones. JMO

Foraging doesn’t explain why she didn’t get hospitalized. We all know the DC pattern of illness,and we know there is no “protective drug” - the way the DC toxin works,and by the time she visited the hospital, the DC liver damage would have occurred and be continuing. Yes, the deceased are older than Erin, but Heather Wilkinson at 66 didn’t look so frail. Erin, doesn’t look too healthy to me - like not fighting-fit!
A person cannot become immune to DC poison because human body can’t make an antibody to it, or anti dote. DCs kill livestock -apparently 2-3 can kill a cow and I can’t see how Erin could survive with minor symptoms … and not get hospitalized for observation considering the others.
she is admitting to being ill, right? So she is confirming the other 4 didn’t get poisoned elsewhere. IMO she admitted that she, and the other 4 got sick from the same thing and then offered up the “Asian” mushrooms as the cause.

 

[ch_13]

I'm not implying anything. The point I am making is that there are other possibilities which don't necessarily involve EP, and IMO it is useful to keep an open mind.

Regarding your second point, IMO she has been advised by her legal people to avoid saying anything at all to the media. If the above scenario had occurred, IMO she would have discussed it with investigators, but they certainly wouldn't be releasing that information to the public at this point. JMO

I agree that her legal team has told her not to speak to the press.

However, there was that statement Erin made to the authorities, at least portions of which were released to the public (much to the chagrin of the police).

In the parts of the statement we saw, she goes into some detail about how the beef wellington was plated and served. It would have made sense to also mention any side dishes, drinks etc brought by the guests as well. Of course, if may have been discussed in the parts that weren't released. However, if in fact her legal team was the one that leaked the statement I don't see why they wouldn't include that obviously exculpatory information. It would have changed the trajectory of the discussion around this case.

In the past I've expressed surprise that her attorney allowed her to make that statement in the first place. Whether innocent or guilty, I think she would have been better off keeping quiet and letting the police try to make their case without giving them more fodder for their investigation.

 

[MsMarple]

I agree that her legal team has told her not to speak to the press.

However, there was that statement Erin made to the authorities, at least portions of which were released to the public (much to the chagrin of the police).

In the parts of the statement we saw, she goes into some detail about how the beef wellington was plated and served. It would have made sense to also mention any side dishes, drinks etc brought by the guests as well. Of course, if may have been discussed in the parts that weren't released. However, if in fact her legal team was the one that leaked the statement I don't see why they wouldn't include that obviously exculpatory information. It would have changed the trajectory of the discussion around this case.

In the past I've expressed surprise that her attorney allowed her to make that statement in the first place. Whether innocent or guilty, I think she would have been better off keeping quiet and letting the police try to make their case without giving them more fodder for their investigation.

Yeah, leaking that statement was a puzzling turn of events IMO. I agree that it would have included any information which placed blame elsewhere. Instead EP admitted to refusing to speak with LE and when she finally did she lied to detectives. And attempted to destroy evidence. IMO it was a strategic error.

IMO it’s also weird that she’d say Gail was like a mother to her and at the same time hamper the investigation into what killed Gail. That’s quite an emotional disconnect. In my opinion.

 

[NeverPersonal]

EP seems to exhibit a personality at odds with her gentle pretty looks, IMO - if this was always the case, it could explain a few things. IMO.

are we looking at the same person...? lol

IMO - Her intent is obvious since herself & her children did not fall ill after eating the same meal - in fact, to me, it could not be any more obvious! Not sure how she thought she’d get away with it? Also, innocent people don’t take cooking preparation utensils to the dump unless they’re broken - that screams of guilt! MOO

IMO - I do not believe her version of this at all, talk about trying to distance herself & basically blame the victims for ‘choosing’ the poisoned portions - I think EP is a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

couldn't agree more karin. i mean, look at lucy letby. you don't look at her and think "baby murderer". she looks like any basic white girl

EP had two types of mushrooms - locally store bought fresh button mushrooms and dried mushrooms from the Asian grocer. Deadly mushroom chef ‘very good at foraging’ for wild fungi

this will never make sense to me - why use TWO different sources of mushrooms in a dish such as beef wellington and mix them together...
that's so, so, so odd in my opinion.

 

[NeverPersonal]

Maybe she likes taking care of sick people and nursing them back to health?

Jmo

making people rely on her to get better and see her as a savior of some sort? perhaps. maybe that is what happened with the husband's illness.

MOO, just conjecture.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/truecrimeaustralia/police-courts-victoria/monthslong-wait-for-lessons-in-chemistry-at-leongatha-library/news-story/914e782fd87afff50dbef5ff401580fd?amp

Behind paywall

I haven't read it, what happens involving death caps?

Months-long wait for ‘Lessons in Chemistry’ at Leongatha library​

Mushrooms are believed to have killed three locals and the fallout is an intense media spotlight shining on the town – and an incredible demand for one novel at the Leongatha library

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/truecrimeaustralia/police-courts-victoria/monthslong-wait-for-lessons-in-chemistry-at-leongatha-library/news-story/914e782fd87afff50dbef5ff401580fd?amp

*I found a news article about the book. It’s interesting but I’m not sure how it relates. The only thing I saw in the article that possibly part of the plot of the novel:

Elizabeth, who appears to be neurodivergent in some way, gets peeved when a male colleague suggests that she learn to “outsmart” the system, because she can’t see why systems can’t just be “smart in the first place.” She knows that she lives in “a patriarchal society founded on the idea that women were less,” but she indignantly refuses to acknowledge the dictates of that society.

It’s the Biggest Debut Novel of the Past Year. Here’s Why It’s Such a Hit.

Lessons in Chemistry has a secret ingredient.

slate.com

 

[Kemug]

A friend pointed out she might have read “lessons in chemistry “ a fiction book where a character talks about cooking death cap mushrooms

People might also like to read "The documents in the case" by that wonderful author Dorothy Sayers".

 

[SouthAussie]

we know they died of DC mushroom poisoning but that doesn't prove EP did it - there is no 'manslaughter' charge as there is zero evidence that we know of yet.

The four could have been targeted by someone else or they could have been victims of their own misadventure. This is going to be an impossible case to press unless LE have a lot of info up their sleeves.
Personally I think they should have taken seizure of the property and land to search and test, gone straight to analysing the plumbing. If EP had been preparing DC mushrooms and served them, there would be DNA traces and residue still left in the used water run offs and drains maybe back then but not now. Also they could have searched the grounds or locations where DC mushrooms could have been picked (if they had been picked recently).

I was looking at the Vic stipulations for involuntary manslaughter. To see if that might fit.

The accused lacks the intent to kill or cause serious injury.
Death is due to the reckless or negligent illegal behaviour of the accused. Link


Would manslaughter fit? Where the accused has committed a dangerous unlawful act that killed the person, or has consciously and voluntarily committed an act which breached a duty of care and the person died. (Same link)


I think it is really going to boil down to proving intent. If there was intent it would be murder, unless a lesser manslaughter plea was accepted.

If there was no intent, it would be an accident. Because who would knowingly add poisonous mushrooms to a dish without intent.

imo

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Would Mens Rea come into this case.

What is mens rea in Australian law?

Mens rea offences are offences which, to be proven, must demonstrate an accused both committed the physical act (actus reus) as well as had a guilty mind – that is, the intention to commit the offence (mens rea). Most offences fall into this category for example, theft.

 

[jjleroche]

are we looking at the same person...? lol


couldn't agree more karin. i mean, look at lucy letby. you don't look at her and think "baby murderer". she looks like any basic white girl


this will never make sense to me - why use TWO different sources of mushrooms in a dish such as beef wellington and mix them together...
that's so, so, so odd in my opinion.

DBM - unable to attach response to correct section.

 

[Puggo]

Would Mens Rea come into this case.

What is mens rea in Australian law?

Mens rea offences are offences which, to be proven, must demonstrate an accused both committed the physical act (actus reus) as well as had a guilty mind – that is, the intention to commit the offence (mens rea). Most offences fall into this category for example, theft.

"Recklessness" where established can be a substitute for mens rea within Victoria.

Coincidentally the standard and legal tests for "Recklessness" is under Victorian Law Reform Commision review currently.

There's a brief summary of the Review, the Common Law and Crimes Act 1958 at the following link:

"Recklessness" in Victorian criminal law | Thomson Reuters

recklessness in criminal law

support.thomsonreuters.com.au

 

[Ellery84]

Death is due to the reckless or negligent illegal behaviour of the accused

Presumably it’s illegal to put DC mushrooms in a beef welly and feed it to people?

If not, it should be.

IMO

<I’m not saying Erin tried to hurt anyone, just speculating >

 

[Kemug]

I believe EP said that one of the deceased ladies was like a mother to her? I presume she meant that in a good way?

 

[Ellery84]

Personally I think they should have taken seizure of the property and land to search and test, gone straight to analysing the plumbing. If EP had been preparing DC mushrooms and served them, there would be DNA traces and residue still left in the used water run offs and drains maybe back then but not now.

Hindsight is 20/20, isn’t it.

Also, I wanted to ask you - what does it mean to press a case? I’ve heard Prosecutors say it but I don’t fully understand what it means in legal terms.

Thank you.

 

[Ellery84]

I believe EP said that one of the deceased ladies was like a mother to her? I presume she meant that in a good way?

Oh one would hope so.

She said it with a bit of a sad, dramatic lilt (imo) - so I’m guessing the meaning was that she was like a nurturing mother or mother figure to Erin.