Australia - Allison Baden-Clay, 43, Brisbane QLD, 19 April 2012 - #13

[wakeskate]

Yes Wakestate - there is a little bridge on Wirrabarra Rd - crosses Little Ugly Creek; dense vegetation. And, if you drive up Wirrabarra Rd - it runs along side the Creek - steep slope dropping off towards the creek, again covered in dense vegetation. It is not too far up from where Little Ugly joins Kholo Creek, so it is plausible for a body to travel down when the creek when it filled with water. You leave a body there - may never be found. Not exactly on walking tracks! I suppose I am leaning towards Wirrabarra - but it may well have been Tyamolum.

You would know better than me. I have driven down Mt Crosby Road plenty of times, and through lots of parts of Anstead (where the houses are etc), but I have never been up the roads in question.
As you said that area is spooky. I get that same feeling, but then the majority of driving I have done along that road is late at night, and with no street lights it can feel that way.

 

[wakeskate]

It is a miracle - we don't usually get heavy rain like that at this time, and the fact that Allison came to rest under the bridge, and so close to the mouth of the river. If she had been swept into the river maybe the chances of her being found would have been so much less likely.
I'm not religious - but someone 'up there' thought 'get away with murder? not on my watch'.. and the heavens opened!

It was very lucky she ended up where she was. Another few hours of rain or a different tide and she would have ended up in the Brisbane River.
I remember that Irish guy who fell from the boat a few years ago. He wasn't found for a week and that was right in front of the city. Not many people boat up past Moggill Ferry in my experience (for us regular users of the river, crossing the cables is a risk so we tend to turn around and head back by then). If she made it into the river she could have easily be missed. Although the SES and police presents suggest not.

 

[CJ60]

For the record it is not my term, which is why I put quotes around it. The only reason for using it was that people knew I was referring to it rumour or theory that was posed several threads ago.

As for not liking/wanting to share your experiences with it. Sounds like a perfect post for the chat thread unless it's directly related to this case.
That goes for how the juridical system works and how it's unfair and what not.
We are here to discuss the circumstances around this case IMO.

No Wakestate - we know it isn't your 'term'. One of the posters earlier mentioned that it is the term used in legal circles.

Just horrid - it lends itself to 'softening' the fact that someone has smacked someone with such force, and intent to cause harm - to another human being!

 

[CJ60]

It was very lucky she ended up where she was. Another few hours of rain or a different tide and she would have ended up in the Brisbane River.
I remember that Irish guy who fell from the boat a few years ago. He wasn't found for a week and that was right in front of the city. Not many people boat up past Moggill Ferry in my experience (for us regular users of the river, crossing the cables is a risk so we tend to turn around and head back by then). If she made it into the river she could have easily be missed. Although the SES and police presents suggest not.

I know they concentrated the search around Brookfield, but an earlier poster said there were searches of the waterways further afield. Not as intense as the Brookfield search. Of course, if Police canoeists had been out and about, they wouldn't have seen Allison while she was hidden in the scrub - and couldn't even get up that far - dry creeks! But as soon as it rained - she was found. I'm with you - I think if she had made it to the river -chances of finding her - slim!

And I drove up Wirrabarra on a beautiful sunny day - I don't think I would like to go there at night!
( I do not want to offend anyone that lives up there - it is just this case that has given me the creeps! Ugly Gully is beautiful - but I look at that whole area in a different light, now. A dumped Allison there..)

 

[Keentoknow]

I completely agree with this. (apart from specifically saying it was him :fence: )
The growth of weeds and what not in that area is phenomenal.
It's not some nice trickling stream up in the woods, it's an out of control weed garden where only some parts way up near the scout camp are tended to.
Just look at the street view photos that someone posted the other day from the small area right near the bridge.
http://g.co/maps/v7vjr
I am not dismissing that the body was dumped there, except for the fact it was too close to the main road.

Google Kholo Bridge Mt Crosby
.http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-enters-11th-day/story-e6freoof-1226342625074

Hope this works. There appears to be a road or pathway that cars have been able to use, going down from the bridge. Zoom into bridge and you will see the pathway

 

[marlywings]

Det Sup Mark Ainswoth claims that he WILL arrest the person responsible. He is one of the best. I would not like to be offside with him either. If I was GBC I would sure be worried.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/ipad/baden-clay-case-the-investigator/story-fn6ck45n-1226345217423

Yes I think this man is brilliant!!...you could almost feel the pain he felt for the Dickie family after the discovery of Allison's body. He will get the killer I'm sure of it...may not be today..or tomorrow..or even next week....but he will get him.

 

[xfiles]

Just wondering if someone can post the link to the chat room. i can't locate it, Thanks

 

[AllyG]

Just wondering if someone can post the link to the chat room. i can't locate it, Thanks

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172214"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172214[/ame]

 

[UnfoldingTruth]

IMO no visible signs of foul play mean just that. I personally believe the statement meant 'given the state of decomposition, at this point, there is no specific 'sign' that might indicate foul play such as bullet wounds,ligature around neck, throat cut' etc. Sorry to be graphic, but there has been a lot of talk about the signs of foul play. Allison's body had possibly been outside for 11 days maybe submerged in water. It would take a medical examiner to examine and determine if there were any signs of foul play after eliminating the decomposition and interference from nature. Also toxicology and other testing would help to determine any other signs of foul play like the poisoning theory doing the rounds.. of course this is all just my opinion...I actually know jack *****

Yes. My post in previous thread with link to CM stating no visible signs of foul play, was in reference to the chain theory. (If a body was wrapped in chain and found that way, it would be a visible sign). Also the things you mention. Of course thats intial assesment and then medical examiner/forensics comes into play to determine actual COD(looking more closely for signs of foul play- just cause inital visual signs don't show, doesn't mean they aren't there.)

 

[Keentoknow]

Yes I think this man is brilliant!!...you could almost feel the pain he felt for the Dickie family after the discovery of Allison's body. He will get the killer I'm sure of it...may not be today..or tomorrow..or even next week....but he will get him.

We must remind ourselves that there were three murders in Brisbane under his investigation in that one week.
He will not let the Dickie family down.

 

[Curiousasacat]

It is a miracle - we don't usually get heavy rain like that at this time, and the fact that Allison came to rest under the bridge, and so close to the mouth of the river. If she had been swept into the river maybe the chances of her being found would have been so much less likely.
I'm not religious - but someone 'up there' thought 'get away with murder? not on my watch'.. and the heavens opened!

I am still sulking about my 2 day time-out....BUT I did have to say CJ that this is exactly what I had thought. I am not religious either but love that " someone 'up there' thought 'get away with murder? not on my watch" I bet the perp would never,ever expected such public interest is his little old MRS(his opinion) missing. Yes, I believe he thought he could get away with it and she would be put down as a missing person,I would bet he never expected her to be found so quickly and she came out of his "hiding spot". Perhaps she really was an angel : )

 

[itsthevibe]

Am I the only one offended by the "love tap" or "soft kill" references?

I'd like to share my own experience of being nearly 'soft killed' by my (ex) husband but this isn't about me...it's about Allison.

I'd also like to share how a jury found him "not guilty". Seems if a woman is still breathing, she's lying.

Quite happy for this post to be moderated.

I have posted extensively on the whole issue of people using the word 'accidentally' when referring to a DV or rage situation and explained that even if it is not pre-meditated it is not necessarily an accident, especially in the case of strangling and smothering.

Some of us have shared their experiences, and then connected it to the case - ie giving background of the way certain people operate and behave to demonstrate that certain people in this case might not present as being some sort of monster, but can still be very capable of carrying out a killing, and being committed to actually killing their victim, in certain situations.

I think it would be relevant if it relates to an understanding of this case. But you might be able to find our discussions before, I think they are in Thread 11, or maybe 10. I will have a look over the weekend, it could be worth a read for you. I, minni, and I think it was Rational all posted some things about our stories but it wasnt simply to get things off our chest it was to inform about the reality of what these situations are like when they happen, and what the perpetrators can be capable of.

 

[CJ60]

http://maps.google.com.au/maps?hl=e...code_result&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ8gEwAA

Hope this works. There appears to be a road or pathway that cars have been able to use, going down from the bridge. Zoom into bridge and you will see the pathway

Cheers! Every time I try to link a map - a map of the world comes up!

 

[marlywings]

I know they concentrated the search around Brookfield, but an earlier poster said there were searches of the waterways further afield. Not as intense as the Brookfield search. Of course, if Police canoeists had been out and about, they wouldn't have seen Allison while she was hidden in the scrub - and couldn't even get up that far - dry creeks! But as soon as it rained - she was found. I'm with you - I think if she had made it to the river -chances of finding her - slim!

And I drove up Wirrabarra on a beautiful sunny day - I don't think I would like to go there at night!
( I do not want to offend anyone that lives up there - it is just this case that has given me the creeps! Ugly Gully is beautiful - but I look at that whole area in a different light, now. A dumped Allison there..)

IF the thought of Allison's body being taken out to Brisbane River was somewhere in the killer's thought processes...the body would be floating??...more chance of her being found??...

 

[CJ60]

I am still sulking about my 2 day time-out....BUT I did have to say CJ that this is exactly what I had thought. I am not religious either but love that " someone 'up there' thought 'get away with murder? not on my watch" I bet the perp would never,ever expected such public interest is his little old MRS(his opinion) missing. Yes, I believe he thought he could get away with it and she would be put down as a missing person,I would bet he never expected her to be found so quickly and she came out of his "hiding spot". Perhaps she really was an angel : )

On the button..

( Lol - 2 days time out! bet you were suffering from withdrawal symptoms!)

 

[UnfoldingTruth]

Would a broken neck be evident??

Just going on a theory of her perhaps having been thrown or pushed down the stairs of the house.

I'm not an expert. but I would tend to think that would go in the no visible signs(depending how badly broken)..even it is suspected. I could be wrong. (but as thats something would need to be confirmed by examiner)

 

[Keentoknow]

I am still sulking about my 2 day time-out....BUT I did have to say CJ that this is exactly what I had thought. I am not religious either but love that " someone 'up there' thought 'get away with murder? not on my watch" I bet the perp would never,ever expected such public interest is his little old MRS(his opinion) missing. Yes, I believe he thought he could get away with it and she would be put down as a missing person,I would bet he never expected her to be found so quickly and she came out of his "hiding spot". Perhaps she really was an angel : )

Welcome back

 

[Seeking]

I'm under the impression if a person admits something to the lawyer, they can't then plead not guilty to it to try and get off. Imagine if a person was charged with murder, a murder trial was organised, and on the day of the trial the lawyer says... "my client wants to be tried for manslaughter not murder". The trial judge is going to be mighty p*ssed off. I'm not even sure they could plead guilty to manslaughter on the day of the trial if it wasn't even on the charge sheet. ??

I could be wrong there - where is the knowledgeable HAWKINS!!!??

Hawkins will be able to answer you better than me. Your posts are very objective and informative Hawkins. So Thank you.

My personal experience (supporting a friend through a murder trial that turned to a plea of guilty to manslaughter) is that the plea changes even happen on the day a trial is supposed to start. I am not a legal professional and I don't live in QLD anymore. In my friends case the prosecution team was prepared for a murder trial, though very close to the actual trial they gave my friend the idea that there could be a plea coming, but there was no guarantee until it actually happened. In her case it happened right at the start of the court case sparing my friend (a victim as it was her loved one that was murdered) a lot of pain and stress in having to be cross examined in court....as well as sparing the court all the time and costs associated with a prolonged trial and also sparing the need for a jury.

The two court cases that I have supported people through have given me the idea that there is a lot of talks and negotiation between prosecuting teams and defending teams outside of the court room. I might be wrong but it is what it felt like to me both times. My other observation of the criminal court process is it becomes about what is recorded on the paper (hence making sure that you have a lawyer involved from the beginning) and what the various people agree about what this means (a bit like the people on Weblseuths debating the relative merits of what has been written about a particular case in the media and what it all means:fence and that sometimes if you are actually people who know about the case personally or know the people or situation that what comes out in court can seem far from the "real experience"......even to the point where in one case I attended that if it wasn't so serious...........it would have been laughable. the legal teams work very hard with what they have and what is admissible within the constraints of a court system etc. If you know about a case and what is being presented seems off the track...it is very hard to not say anything...believe me...but you can't....you just have to let the court process happen and not interfere. I just wrote lots of notes and if appropriate made the barrister aware when there was a break.

My limited experience in this area made me glad that I am not a criminal lawyer........and it even made me hope that none of my children choose that path for a career. I think that it would be a very difficult job.... there is such a lot at stake for both sides. There is also an incredible amount of emotion and stress to deal with for all people. You don't want to put an innocent person in jail....but you don't want to let the guilty walk free.

 

[Greg]

I am still sulking about my 2 day time-out....BUT I did have to say CJ that this is exactly what I had thought. I am not religious either but love that " someone 'up there' thought 'get away with murder? not on my watch" I bet the perp would never,ever expected such public interest is his little old MRS(his opinion) missing. Yes, I believe he thought he could get away with it and she would be put down as a missing person,I would bet he never expected her to be found so quickly and she came out of his "hiding spot". Perhaps she really was an angel : )

Im not upset about my timeout just that the post that caused it got deleted :denied:
totally agree with what you guys are saying re him not expecting the thing to go viral so to say and so so public...

 

[CJ60]

IF the thought of Allison's body being taken out to Brisbane River was somewhere in the killer's thought processes...the body would be floating??...more chance of her being found??...

Yeah - it is a tough one. On one hand it is a case of did he want her found? to claim on insurance..

But those creeks were dry upstream. It would have been a complete surprise that Allison was found after the rain. I think it was an argument that escalated that night ( no children, IMO ) and Allison had to be disposed of quickly. In the bush near the creek. Not a lot of time to think.. just act. And if they did travel through the Kenmore roundabout - CCTV - definitely not thinking straight.
( I do realise a lot of locals had no idea the camera's were there )