Australia Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #10

[janwa]

Just had an interesting message from a friend on Facebook (also from the Gosnells area):

My friend xxxxxxx is just saying she used to ride her horse out on gay street through the bush and she got spooked by a guy and he had a shovel and she remembers it really well. She came screaming home telling her mum. I told her to call macro or crime stoppers the timing is right too. She is my neighbour from xxxxxxxxx. Holy ****.



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There were many horse properties in the area with young girls riding in twos, now being sold and subdivided. Gay St crosses Southern River Rd. At that time turn left to GSHS turn right to go up the rd to the
pony club

 

[John Dillinger]

I just watched the CIA episode again and IMO, a potential reason that the CSK stopped killing was the police had installed covert and non covert surveillance cameras.

My understanding is that Telstra would have been engaged to install these cameras on behalf of police, and as BE was a Telstra Tech, he may have had knowledge that these cameras were being installed throughout Claremont and the surrounding areas.

Although BE may not have had knowledge of the camera locations, he may have been scared just knowing that cameras were being installed.

 

[dixon of dock green]

In reply to sparklingwater

Don't think Garden Street existed back then.
Either 1. Albany Highway past Cannington, right into Nicholson, left at Spencer Road and right at Warton Road to Huntingdale.
Or 2. Albany Highway, through Cannington, Beckenham, Kenwick, Maddington and turn right at various options such as Royal Street (to Huntingdale via Thornlie), Burslem, or Olga (both to huntingdale via Maddington).

 

[potr]

sutcliffe known and/or admitted crimes.
but I agree the were not intended to just be assaults and/or rapes just failed murders.
1969
1 assault
1975
3 assaults
1 murder
1976
1 murder
1 assault
1977
4 murders
2 assaults
1978
3 murders
1979
2 murders
1980
1 dui
2 murders
3 assaults

 

[apoptosisfutz]

Do you have any ideas how they would do this and not to make it suspicious? You are not obliged to give a DNA sample without court order (I think) or they must request it from you.

Once charged, but before being dealt with by a court, a person’s prints may be taken of the person’s hands, feet, and ears, photographs can be taken (including of identifying marks), measurements may be taken of identifying features, and a DNA profile may be obtained but only in relation to a serious offence.

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[apoptosisfutz]

Don't think Garden Street existed back then.
Either 1. Albany Highway past Cannington, right into Nicholson, left at Spencer Road and right at Warton Road to Huntingdale.
Or 2. Albany Highway, through Cannington, Beckenham, Kenwick, Maddington and turn right at various options such as Royal Street (to Huntingdale via Thornlie), Burslem, or Olga (both to huntingdale via Maddington).

Anyone got an old street directory of Perth around that time?

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[SherlockSleuth]

Do you have any ideas how they would do this and not to make it suspicious? You are not obliged to give a DNA sample without court order (I think) or they must request it from you.

A million & 1 ways I would think.

* 'Random' breath test
* Collect your coffee cup from the bin at your local cafe

You get the idea

 

[SherlockSleuth]

Once charged, but before being dealt with by a court, a person’s prints may be taken of the person’s hands, feet, and ears, photographs can be taken (including of identifying marks), measurements may be taken of identifying features, and a DNA profile may be obtained but only in relation to a serious offence.

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I think the original question was about how might ones DNA be collected covertly.

 

[jam sandwich]

Once charged, but before being dealt with by a court, a person’s prints may be taken of the person’s hands, feet, and ears, photographs can be taken (including of identifying marks), measurements may be taken of identifying features, and a DNA profile may be obtained but only in relation to a serious offence.

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This isn't being done covertly ....that's what I was asking?

 

[JoeDetective]

Do you have any ideas how they would do this and not to make it suspicious? You are not obliged to give a DNA sample without court order (I think) or they must request it from you.

Routine traffic stop breathe test on a route they know you travel, cops can use the mouthpiece to get DNA, it's not difficult, keep in mind if you are breathe tested I believe you can ask for the mouthpiece back, but you'd only do that if you were paranoid.

I remember when cops used to give people back their mouthpieces, then they moved to dumping them in bins.
I am sure one of the cops on here can explain it better.

Even easier cops can simply pull you over anywhere for a random traffic check. Especially at night. RBT stop is less suspicious though.

 

[potr]

I think, only speculation, that someone who knew him dobbed him in and provided a covert sample. i think the covert sample will not be used as evidence, it was just done to be sure. the requested dna will be used because they waited until they had the dna confirmation to actually charge him. ...but that is just my own imaginings

 

[Psychsleuth]

Gosh I am not absolutely sure about this so correct me if i am wrong but I thought that serial killers including Sutcliffe, Napper, cooke and Ridgeway had freqently either raped or murdered their victims...it all depended on the specific circumstances....Even though a rapist may progress to a killer they fequently indulge in an assortment of criminal acts in the same time frame. I think this is part of a diagnosis of Anti-social personality disorder. (the nearest thing in the DSM to psychopathy). Even Bendali Debs was at the same time as murdering women, robbing restaurants and shoplifting and possibly raping.

Yes you are right that they may be involved in a range of crimes whilst also killing and it is possible for them to vary their MO as did Napper. But this would of course depend on their motivations and personality style. Napper was a paranoid schizophrenic and so his pattern of offending would have been influenced by the extent if his illness at the time. My understanding of Sutcliffe was that he was pretty consistent with his crimes and luckily some women survived his brutal attacks. Cooke's crimes look pretty consistent to me and he was not a sexually driven killer from what I know. As for Ridgeway I am not sure. His crimes are so extensive it would be hard to really know the initial pattern.

The Claremont serial killer appears to be organised, controlled and careful. Therefore he is likely to have learnt from earlier crimes and his pattern would have developed from each of one quite clearly. My theory would be that he learnt that breaking in to someone's house was too risky as he had less control.

I am not an expert in this but do have some basic understanding of the psychology behind it.

 

[JoeDetective]

Everyone asking about DNA needs to go back over the the arrest threads #7 ,#8 and #9. The DNA collection is covered extensively, I think you will find the answers you seek in there.

 

[Perth]

Body was in the drain opposite bunnings maddington

 

[SherlockSleuth]

Here's something that's been bugging me... Assuming that SS was indeed taken by the CSK... This event proves that he's capable of somehow hiding a body that's never been found. So why the switch to dumping bodies where they'd certainly be found? This proves as well that his MO can change (which we knew anyway, once we knew he was good for the Karakatta rape). So everyone speculating on 'blitz' attack or 'did he coerce them into his car?' ... maybe different MO each time. Or not.

 

[jam sandwich]

sutcliffe known and/or admitted crimes.
but I agree the were not intended to just be assaults and/or rapes just failed murders.
1969
1 assault
1975
3 assaults
1 murder
1976
1 murder
1 assault
1977
4 murders
2 assaults
1978
3 murders
1979
2 murders
1980
1 dui
2 murders
3 assaults

Yes, the assault victims escaped so they were failed potential murders

 

[Psychsleuth]

Because he knew SS in some way, she was important to him for some reason, or the effort to hide her nearly had him caught?

The MO is behavioural and learnt behaviour and it can change as the offender learns. The core desires/motivations don't change but the way of going about achieving them can.

 

[JoeDetective]

I think his DNA was found on CG hence the charge of murder

So... suggesting things like other suspects push for reasonable doubt is reasonably pointless you would suggest if you are the one with the DNA on the vid? Yet people on here keep doing it.

If the jury accepts the DNA evidence and its handling BRE is up **** creek.
Unless he can explain why his DNA is on the victims, assuming he tries to plead consensual there are two living victims to suggest otherwise.

The only way BRE is getting out of this is if he can take the DNA evidence off the table, as DNA evidence on living and deceased victims take the reasonable doubt out of the equation IMO.

His best bet would be to try to suggest the media have already suggested he is guilty and that he couldn't possibly get a fair jury trial, then push for legal technicalities on evidence handling that a judge can't ignore as reasonable doubt.

 

[SherlockSleuth]

But all these Yorkshire Ripper crimes are the ones he was done for... Who knows what else he was good for over a period spanning more than a decade!? I doubt he was baking cookies when not hitting people over the head with a hammer.

 

[JoeDetective]

Here's something that's been bugging me... Assuming that SS was indeed taken by the CSK... This event proves that he's capable of somehow hiding a body that's never been found. So why the switch to dumping bodies where they'd certainly be found? This proves as well that his MO can change (which we knew anyway, once we knew he was good for the Karakatta rape). So everyone speculating on 'blitz' attack or 'did he coerce them into his car?' ... maybe different MO each time. Or not.

There is a few options with this
1. CSK got cocky
2. CSK wanted the bodies found, after SS was not, he decided to be more obvious
3. CSK had not had time to prep for the dumps, his urges were too strong
4. Something happened with SS dump, i.e. the extra time taken on the dump perhaps to dig caused too much risk
5. at the time of SS there was a specific opportunity i.e. building site that availed itself that was not on offer for later vics
6. SS was dumped west in the ocean to fit some sort of geographical pattern
7. CSK wanted to keep SS close to home to relive the thrill, but has to be somewhere she can't be found.
8. SS is not dead
9. SS was in a reasonably similar spot to JR and CG but she just never got found.
10. Something else