Australia Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #12

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The only advantage of 'crowd-sourcing' an investigation on a platform like this is gathering information more broadly than Plod is able, and - very much secondly - then trying and sort the wheat from the chaff: And we can't really do much more in the latter case than dismiss the obviously wrong ...
 
IMO I still think the three girls were familiar with him or he was able to convince them that he was familiar with some one they knew and so felt it was safe to get into the car with him. Otherwise you would think there would be other reports/incidents of him trying to 'pick up' other girls and he would have been recognised. Obviously his MO had evolved. We don't always know everything or everyone our friends or family know/meet. IMO there must be something that links these three girls. It doesn't necessarily need to be anything big or obvious. It may not even be a link directly between them but a link in how he knew or picked them. We still don't know what he did to them, or if he kept them for a while, but it does make sense that he did something to them to incapacitate them once they were in the car which enabled him to take them somewhere to do what he needed and then later take them to the place where they were found. Blue light? possibly his house initially. I also don't think the D sites had anything to do with Telstra, I think more it had to do with places he was familiar with, places that he had good knowledge of for all sorts of reasons and that were a distance from his home and that he wanted these places to be in totally different areas so he didn't get caught going to the same place twice. So I think East is a good direction for SS. What other areas would he feel comfortable with? So far we know he liked fishing, sports and gaming - where would these take him? Also as he was a gamer, there could be some link with a design (lines) for these sites.
I totally agree with you.
A lot of assaults happened near Club Bayview and at least 2 of the Claremont victims had been there that night. I believe CSK met the girls there at some point. Maybe not that night-but he must have been familiar to them for them to get in his car willingly.

Kk rape 1995- victim was leaving Club Bayview and walking to a friends when she was ambushed,taken in a car and assaulted.

Early 96-a woman is assaulted in Church Lane near Club Bayview and escapes.

Personally I think due to these (and possibly others )- BRE decided he needed to change his style.

SS -Australia Day 1996
A car is seen stopping where she was waiting for a taxi. Unless two people were involved-she couldnt have been blitzed by this car. And with such a short window of time-I doubt anyone else came after this person in car.
I believe she knew him or had seen him around and accepted a lift.

JR
Had been at Club Bayview before the Continental. She never went in the Continental and didnt want to leave with her friends in a taxi.
I believe she had prearranged to meet a man there that she met previously at Club Bayview.
MM definitely resembles BRE in his younger years. This MM never came forward. Has to have had something to hide.
I believe JR left with him willingly

CG
CG was aware there was a killer on the loose.
She was last seen leaning over talking into a car window.
I doubt she would have got in this car had she not felt safe.

The CSI crime doc seems to believe SS and CG got into the car willingly.

Whats interesting is SS and JR were taken on long weekends . The Church Lane assault also occurred on a long weekend
Maybe BRE had the home to himself on long weekends or just needed the extra day to dispose and clean etc.
He may well have taken SS and JR back to his home.
CG ...I think something went wrong with her. She would have put up quite a fight as soon as he started acting odd as she knew 2 girls had already gone missing in the area
The plan went wrong. This may have frightened him and he changed his MO again..



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Thought posters and readers might be interested in this coming up on Channel 7.this Wednesday evening re Perth Birnie serial killers ...

[h=1]Murder Uncovered: How a young girl and rookie cop caught serial killers David and Catherine Birnie[/h]
au.news.yahoo.com/a/34337289/murder-uncovered-how-a-young-girl-and-a-rookie-cop-caught-serial-killers-david-and-catherine-birnie/#page1
 
Hi all, been catching up the past few days as I didn't know the new thread had started. (doh!) As always some very thought provoking stuff on here, isn't it amazing when all these different minds meet, so enlightening! I had a random kind of thought last night before I went to sleep and haven't been able to budge it. As someone who has worked closely with a Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde type who is now spending 10.5 years in prison and who used the "religious" aspect to try to justify his behaviour, I was wondering as it has been stated on WS (forgive me as I don't have post numbers from previous threads) that both CG and V had very strong Catholic faith did BRE attend a Catholic Church with them? Was he perhaps a Catholic all his life as I doubt CG would marry a non-Catholic, she seemed quite devoted to her faith? Would BRE have used the Confessional Box at all? Not a Catholic, am a practising Christian, but have had many Catholic friends during the years and know that they put great worth on going and having their sins "absolved" by talking in that secretive way to unburden themselves. Not saying that BRE would have given the full "death bed" type confession in anyway, but what if he was talking regularly to his priest/s through the secrecy of confession and saying stuff like, "bless me Father for I have sinned, I have lusted after a woman, and followed her and stared at her with sinful thoughts"? I know these types of people who commit these crimes can "compartmentalise" quite well but he also had the "good man" syndrome manifesting in that he wanted to be seen to serve his community, help his neighbours, as virtuous. CG and V would have thought nothing of watching him go into the confessional on a regular basis, would even perhaps endeared him more to them and shown how he was so wanting to be an even better man? Wondering if WAPOL should check out BRE's favourite church and speak to the priests, he might even have kept attending after marriage breakdown? I know the sanctity of the confessional and all that but I think the Catholic church would be very willing to give up information in this case, not wanting any perceived cover-ups? Also, if he does have some leanings towards his faith, might this be another way to have him tell them about other things he might have done? This faith aspect may also, in his twisted way, have justified his taking these girls off the streets, the visionary type of serial killer? These girls are out walking around, half dressed, not at home like "good girls" been drinking, etc. etc. As I said, random thoughts, but you just don't know what will "crack" these types of nuts???
 
back to the topic of where the CSK may have taken his victims, here's more theory with regard to other possible locations.

Far as I'm aware BREs parents were into real estate and land development.

1.) depending on the accused's parents 'type' of involvement in real estate & development properties during the time of the claremont disappearances, BRE may also have had access to the keys of homes belonging to others ... homes which were perhaps known to be sitting vacant whilst on the market (eg.owners overseas, deceased estate), or perhaps properties up for rental, or under renovation for same, or earmarked for demolition.
or
2.) from memory, the Gay street estate wasn't subdivided & redeveloped until post-claremont matters,
but in an earlier thread ( #7or#8 ?) the possibilty of a shed at that address was debated as to whether having been man-cave style digs at some stage ... a pontoon type craft was stored at the location, visible from a sleuthed google earth view.
or
3.) as BRE was said to be generously helpful with his skills, might he have perhaps been "moonlighting his telstra expertise" at a family level, on behalf of his parents, by installing lines & cabling to their developmental properties? perhaps he also assisted with some additional labour eg. painting the interiors, and general build clean-ups for the folks?
picture a new housing development - at lock-up stage - plumbed bathrooms, running water, no floor coverings, drop sheets(?) ... as yet unoccupied. if this were the case, he would had been a familiar face to the occupants of neighbouring properties, so i doubt any locals would have thought much if he was seen rocking up at all hours, had he been one to regularly check up on progress ... a legitimate reason to be on site, graciously helping out with the finishing touches on weekends and through the night following completion of his day job (?)
... and with his folks to vouch - had anyone asked -
"oh, our boy ... a top young bloke ... works day & night ... give you the shirt off his back"

just my speculated thoughts
[emoji887]
 
The latest newspapers have said BRE parents were real estate agents and I have found father registered as real estate agent on their registry list at Gay street address. Unsure where I read about their helping with land developments. Trying to find it now.

Definitely could have been many properties at BRE disposal at that rate.

Plus if they were land developers, he would have known where things would be happening soon giving him lots of options to dispose of evidence

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hey bravette

By no means was I trying to dismiss your theory. Like you since Friday all I can think about is JC! Weird huh..

I read as much as I could online and on other forums to try and find a link.

A few things I find interesting about her disappearance is the police weren't as active in this nor was much information given to the public. The west newspaper didn't give the disappearance much importance either. I might need to go check the microfilms at the state library to check what the Daily News defunct paper had said because from various searches people have noted they reported a bit on this.

Given some previous stalker behaviour "break in and being driven off the road" - you might assume whoever took her either was obsessed with her or someone known to her.

She left the Hilton staff car park at approx 12:30am which was a Monday early morning. She was last seen checking her bag in front of her car. Maybe she was looking for her wallet she forgot at home?? As she attended a staff function at the nightclub at the Hilton maybe she didn't need money as it was all paid for and hence didn't notice it was missing until that point. In 1988 the Hilton was considered a flash hotel, so you would consider nothing happened to her in the car park because they would have had security etc but maybe not. It was a man and woman who saw her and I don't think they have reidentitfied themselves to police because a news report was asking them to contact police.

The only thing I can consider is she was blitzed in the car park or someone was hiding in her car?

I doubt she would have headed out again because by this time on a Sunday night/Monday morning in 1988 not much would be open but correct me if I'm wrong and no mobile phones to arrange to meet anywhere either. Plus if she prearranged to meet friends it would have been reported.

It would be unlikely she was blitzed whilst driving on Stirling hwy unless 2 people were involved. Given past incidents she's not going to stop for anyone.

She could have gone to someone's house where she has met with foul play and then disposed off. This might be controversial but maybe she was working as a lady of the night hence the limited reporting from newspapers at the time. I mean no offence and no disrespect to JC by this but I'm concerned her disappearance didn't receive the police attention nor journalistic attention it should have been given as it was after the birnies!

When her car was found the ignition was on and the headlights on indicating it was disposed at night and most likely from the groyne at cott beach. Those car were heavy and wouldnt have moved much. There was a comment the lights were still on when the car was found on Wednesday therefore the battery not drained and the car therefore would have been disposed on Tuesday night - I cannot confirm this with any news reports.

Other avenue is she got home and someone attacked her there and removed all evidence to her car and drove it into the water.

I can't locate at what time they realised she was missing, if it was at sometime on Monday then one might assume her house was searched and checked by her family prior to her car being found in the surf.

I'm surprised a more in depth review of her case hasn't been done and no journalist has looked further into this. Important to note the police officer that dealt with the Birinie case - Vince Katich also was in charge of JC case.

All this was IMO and from reading the articles and blogs about her.


here goes...

nini,
in all i theorised in my recent post - concerning the CSK and karrakatta cemetery + map, with regard to whether there could be ANY possible Cutler link as a connective theme in the CSK's MO ... that was all i could come up with. It was a well thought out, genuine, nonmischievous attempt to rationalise any known facts which might provoke further discussion & input, in a bid to sway my own thinking towards actually believing the CSK might be responsible for Julie's disappearance.
I spent more than an evening and a day PMing - debating "JC and the CSK" - prior to being audience to last night's (derailed) serious discussion on thread (which primarily concerned Julie's fiat) - and then, this afternoon when serious discussion recommenced, it again continued on the topic of her vehicle.
... she has filled my head constantly for the past day and a half as a prelude to my recent post, which i reiterate, was only a "theory" (certainly no more out there than others over many years) and, in the light of what i'm about to say, i hope it isn't removed - that it's left up as food for thought and further consideration ...but theory is all it is - and one that fails to convince me ... i'm gaslighting myself.

and now, within a short space of time YOU have spoken up - and the truth of the matter - which you may be surprised to learn - is that i ABSOLUTELY AGREE with you,
THANK you for your input.

IMHO, there are far too many variables in the circumstances surrounding JulieCutler's disappearance - variables which lead me to be of the opinion that the person responsible for her disappearance may have become obsessed with her - and was VERY possibly also known to her.

goodnight.


[emoji887]




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A few pics of Cottesloe Exchange - corner Stirling Highway & Congdon St.

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hey "BReVeTTe"

By no means was I trying to dismiss your theory. Like you since Friday all I can think about is JC! Weird huh..

I read as much as I could online and on other forums to try and find a link.

A few things I find interesting about her disappearance is the police weren't as active in this nor was much information given to the public. The west newspaper didn't give the disappearance much importance either. I might need to go check the microfilms at the state library to check what the Daily News defunct paper had said because from various searches people have noted they reported a bit on this.
Given some previous stalker behaviour "break in and being driven off the road" - you might assume whoever took her either was obsessed with her or someone known to her.
She left the Hilton staff car park at approx 12:30am which was a Monday early morning. She was last seen checking her bag in front of her car. Maybe she was looking for her wallet she forgot at home?? As she attended a staff function at the nightclub at the Hilton maybe she didn't need money as it was all paid for and hence didn't notice it was missing until that point. In 1988 the Hilton was considered a flash hotel, so you would consider nothing happened to her in the car park because they would have had security etc but maybe not. It was a man and woman who saw her and I don't think they have reidentitfied themselves to police because a news report was asking them to contact police.

The only thing I can consider is she was blitzed in the car park or someone was hiding in her car?

I doubt she would have headed out again because by this time on a Sunday night/Monday morning in 1988 not much would be open but correct me if I'm wrong and no mobile phones to arrange to meet anywhere either. Plus if she prearranged to meet friends it would have been reported.

It would be unlikely she was blitzed whilst driving on Stirling hwy unless 2 people were involved. Given past incidents she's not going to stop for anyone.

She could have gone to someone's house where she has met with foul play and then disposed off. This might be controversial but maybe she was working as a lady of the night hence the limited reporting from newspapers at the time. I mean no offence and no disrespect to JC by this but I'm concerned her disappearance didn't receive the police attention nor journalistic attention it should have been given as it was after the birnies!

When her car was found the ignition was on and the headlights on indicating it was disposed at night and most likely from the groyne at cott beach. Those car were heavy and wouldnt have moved much. There was a comment the lights were still on when the car was found on Wednesday therefore the battery not drained and the car therefore would have been disposed on Tuesday night - I cannot confirm this with any news reports.

Other avenue is she got home and someone attacked her there and removed all evidence to her car and drove it into the water.

I can't locate at what time they realised she was missing, if it was at sometime on Monday then one might assume her house was searched and checked by her family prior to her car being found in the surf.

I'm surprised a more in depth review of her case hasn't been done and no journalist has looked further into this. Important to note the police officer that dealt with the Birinie case - Vince Katich also was in charge of JC case.

All this was IMO and from reading the articles and blogs about her.

nini,
not suggesting that you were dismissing my theory
"i" think i was dismissing my own theory ;-)
_______________

ok, here's another of my very colourful speculative theories
_______________

perhaps there is no information on her having arranged to meet friends because no arrangements had been made?
perhaps it was an impromptu arrangement with a work colleague/interest who was ultimately responsible for her disappearance - therefore could not speak up for fear of incrimination?

who was at the Hilton function that night?
who exactly WERE her work colleagues?
perhaps there was one who'd become obsessed, perhaps they may have even dated a little but she wasn't as serious as him, and he wouldn't take no for an answer?
he says "we need to talk about this some more"
eg. let's go for a coffee and a kebab(?)
...trying to let him down gently, she says, OK
(then at bill time) damn! i'v forgotten my wallet.
he says, my shout for a lift home, and we can talk some more? ...with no wallet on her, she has no option but to agree. flustered, she forgets her work uniform in the plastic bag (all speculative, this)
the disagreement continues, and she won't be swayed ...leaving him out of pocket for a kebab and a coffee.
He's really angry by now, exerts his strength and accidentally kills her.
He panics. tries to stuff her under the back seat of her car but she's too big to leave enough room for it to be reinserted.
He quickly buries her in a nearby city park and takes the vehicle in the direction of cottesloe beach which i suspect is in the direction of his home, and from where he can easily leg it home without too much suspicion.
Throws the back seat into the ocean and pushes the car into the crashing surf.


when discovered, the battery still had charge because the electrical system short circuited at the point the Fiat submerged ... the lights are only showing to have BEEN on when the Fiat entered the water - because they're were still in the on position.

the break in, the highway incident may
or may not be related to the same suspect.

_______________

i believe this individual matter is well overdue for an official inquiry.
_______________
 
I totally agree with you.
A lot of assaults happened near Club Bayview and at least 2 of the Claremont victims had been there that night. I believe CSK met the girls there at some point. Maybe not that night-but he must have been familiar to them for them to get in his car willingly.

Kk rape 1995- victim was leaving Club Bayview and walking to a friends when she was ambushed,taken in a car and assaulted.

Early 96-a woman is assaulted in Church Lane near Club Bayview and escapes.

Personally I think due to these (and possibly others )- BRE decided he needed to change his style.

SS -Australia Day 1996
A car is seen stopping where she was waiting for a taxi. Unless two people were involved-she couldnt have been blitzed by this car. And with such a short window of time-I doubt anyone else came after this person in car.
I believe she knew him or had seen him around and accepted a lift.

JR
Had been at Club Bayview before the Continental. She never went in the Continental and didnt want to leave with her friends in a taxi.
I believe she had prearranged to meet a man there that she met previously at Club Bayview.
MM definitely resembles BRE in his younger years. This MM never came forward. Has to have had something to hide.
I believe JR left with him willingly

CG
CG was aware there was a killer on the loose.
She was last seen leaning over talking into a car window.
I doubt she would have got in this car had she not felt safe.

The CSI crime doc seems to believe SS and CG got into the car willingly.

Whats interesting is SS and JR were taken on long weekends . The Church Lane assault also occurred on a long weekend
Maybe BRE had the home to himself on long weekends or just needed the extra day to dispose and clean etc.
He may well have taken SS and JR back to his home.
CG ...I think something went wrong with her. She would have put up quite a fight as soon as he started acting odd as she knew 2 girls had already gone missing in the area
The plan went wrong. This may have frightened him and he changed his MO again..



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Great post mandy.maree! Do we believe the 1989 abduction of girl sleeping in car at Cottesloe Beach Hotel, taking her to Lakeway Drive-In and then stalking her again is CSK? Would be great to know general consensus on this?
 
Great post mandy.maree! Do we believe the 1989 abduction of girl sleeping in car at Cottesloe Beach Hotel, taking her to Lakeway Drive-In and then stalking her again is CSK? Would be great to know general consensus on this?
I do believe that was him. Seems his style at the time .Not to far from Rowe Park. Victim escaped. ..Which is why I think he changed his MO. Too much to go wrong with the way he was doing things.
The man was brazen. He just got ridiculously lucky imo.
The Cottesloe woman never reported till later-how many others had similar experiences?
He took CG at the height of the Claremont fear. He clearly couldnt control himself.
Makes me wonder what's been happening in the last two decades.
I swore the man responsible had to be dead or overseas after all this time due to lack of things happening.
Unbelievable he was still alive AND still in Perth all this time.



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Only gets 4 years jail. What a joke


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Yeah I agree I'm disappointed with the punishment rapists get. The evil 8 case was the same. Yeah the father got a lot of time but in my opinion they all knew what they were doing and they all should have got life for taking and deprivation of a minor. They all should have been carstrated as well.

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Thought I would raise Iona Presentation College, Catholic School for Girls in Mosman Park as features in all of the below:

JC – attended Iona
https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=103679664

SS – Attended Iona
http://www.news.com.au/national/cla...d/news-story/21cde6933aafd13a378dd1c89aff974a

CG – Well reported she attended Iona and mother worked there

JR – Not sure if she attended

Lorrin Whitehead (attended Iona, Cottesloe Raised)
http://www.geelongadvertiser.com.au...s/news-story/4660796762fa08830aeaabe1a56d55fc

Would be interesting to know which school BE Wives went to? (2nd wife family restaurant very close).

Has anyone else got info to add or clarify?
 
Huntingdale attack -day after Valentines Day

Rowe Park - 2 days before Valentines Day

Church Lane assault -Labour Day

SS-Australia Day

JR- Queens Birthday

CG-St Patricks Day

Just interesting they are all near notable/important days

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- Very disturbing, possible that JC met this person given he went to Parmelia.

Interesting the taxi connection keeps coming up.

I have a theory about the taxis but not fully developed as I have to do more research but am happy for opinions or ideas to further develop.

Basically I'm going with the idea that he is developing his MO as time goes on by copying others. So the 1988 attack is a copycat of Lyddieth, and 1995 he's copying one of the numerous blitz attack/rapes in the area.
The part of my theory I struggle with which links to the taxis is SS, is it possible that JR and CG are copycats of SS. Could SS be a victim of whoever was doing the taxi attacks, she is the only one who ordered a taxi?
It would be easy for the taxi driver/attacker to listen to the radio nearby for someone to order a taxi and then show up. How did they order taxis back then? did dispatch call over a radio the location? It's only a few minutes gap between the phone call and when she disappears, they had to be really fast.
The main struggle with this theory is that if SS was killed by another person we have nothing to find her with, which is why I want to believe BE did it and I am missing something.


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back to the topic of where the CSK may have taken his victims, here's more theory with regard to other possible locations.



1.) depending on the accused's parents 'type' of involvement in real estate & development properties during the time of the claremont disappearances, BRE may also have had access to the keys of homes belonging to others ... homes which were perhaps known to be sitting vacant whilst on the market (eg.owners overseas, deceased estate), or perhaps properties up for rental, or under renovation for same, or earmarked for demolition.
or
2.) from memory, the Gay street estate wasn't subdivided & redeveloped until post-claremont matters,
but in an earlier thread ( #7or#8 ?) the possibilty of a shed at that address was debated as to whether having been man-cave style digs at some stage ... a pontoon type craft was stored at the location, visible from a sleuthed google earth view.
or
3.) as BRE was said to be generously helpful with his skills, might he have perhaps been "moonlighting his telstra expertise" at a family level, on behalf of his parents, by installing lines & cabling to their developmental properties? perhaps he also assisted with some additional labour eg. painting the interiors, and general build clean-ups for the folks?
picture a new housing development - at lock-up stage - plumbed bathrooms, running water, no floor coverings, drop sheets(?) ... as yet unoccupied. if this were the case, he would had been a familiar face to the occupants of neighbouring properties, so i doubt any locals would have thought much if he was seen rocking up at all hours, had he been one to regularly check up on progress ... a legitimate reason to be on site, graciously helping out with the finishing touches on weekends and through the night following completion of his day job (?)
... and with his folks to vouch - had anyone asked -
"oh, our boy ... a top young bloke ... works day & night ... give you the shirt off his back"

just my speculated thoughts
[emoji887]

Just to add to your thoughts about locations, you talk about painting interiors and that got me to thinking that his house was up for sale during the murders at least for part of the time. Is it possible he was doing painting and renovating to his house before he put it on the market? Would explain things like plastic and tarps or "rubbish tip runs". Perhaps his house a long with others mentioned was in need of "renovation".


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