Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #19

[Akai]

I have feeling there could be DNA traces for JR that have come from a previous vehicle that has been forensically tested a car that accused may have had access to either personally or professionally. Fibres also may have been linked as well. JMO.

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That's a good suggestion. It would explain why they couldn't make any links in the earlier part of the investigation. I don't have any idea of the likelihood of DNA surviving for that length of time, though, plus I imagine the timeframe is another thing that could be used to challenge the veracity of that type of evidence.


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[Akai]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-...shocked-perth-to-its-core/9490836?pfmredir=sm



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Thank you for the article.

I am confused about something in it, and hoping someone who was around in Perth in that period might be able to help.

The second map in that article indicates that JR's friends got their taxi from a rank right near Club Bayview. If that existed, why would SS walk down to the phonebox on Stirling Hwy to call one? Did it not exist the year before? Is the article incorrect about there being a taxi rank?

I suppose in answer to my question as to why SS went to the phone box it could be that none were at the rank at the time. But I'm confused because I'd never heard mention of a taxi rank before.


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[MissUnderstood]

Sorry, but you’ll have a little bit longer than that to wait...


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Lol, silly time difference from VIC!!!! Now it’s 2 1/2????


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[Akai]

2 1/2 hours to go!!!!


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It will be a fair bit longer. I'm guessing that you're referencing Australian Eastern Daylight Saving Time (Sydney, Melbourne).

For anyone overseas, at this time of year Australia has timezone madness.

Victoria, NSW, Tasmania - have daylight saving - AEDT
SA - has daylight saving - half an hour behind AEDT
QLD - no daylight saving (usually on same time as other eastern states) - an hour behind AEDT
NT - no daylight saving (usually consistent with SA) - an hour and a half behind AEDT
WA - no daylight saving - 3 hours behind (usually 2 hours behind)

Daylight saving in Aus runs from sometime in October - April

It's currently 8am on AEDT so still 5am in Perth.


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[Akai]

What was the case in Aus where they laid murder charges on a killer and the girl was later found hiding at her boyfriends all those years she was missing??? That didn’t turn out well and in all likelihood they thought it was him. Moo


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Is this the one you mean?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natasha_Ryan


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[nbates]

I couldn't agree with you more. I'm sure that at least on one occasion when BE was on the booze he would of said something that was off or suspect.... Hence why the ex left. at some point her gut instinct must of kicked in that something was up

This is coming up a fair bit (ie: ex involved in tip offs/evidence). But if she had any idea, why/how could she leave a daughter with the person of concern?

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[Ex-perthite]

Thank you for the article.

I am confused about something in it, and hoping someone who was around in Perth in that period might be able to help.

The second map in that article indicates that JR's friends got their taxi from a rank right near Club Bayview. If that existed, why would SS walk down to the phonebox on Stirling Hwy to call one? Did it not exist the year before? Is the article incorrect about there being a taxi rank?

I suppose in answer to my question as to why SS went to the phone box it could be that none were at the rank at the time. But I'm confused because I'd never heard mention of a taxi rank before.


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First time poster but long been having a look see at this forum....I think I can answer this query. The secure taxi rank did not come into existence until after the girls going missing started happening. It was also common for people to go and call a taxi to a location not far from any taxi ranks as often there were long queues at the ranks. For example if you called a taxi to a couple of streets away you effectively managed to jump the queue ...as you had a booked taxi to come to a certain place. I don't see anything odd in SS behaviour, she was probably just trying to get home a bit faster so used that common trick.

I lived in Perth prior to and after this time and yes have connections to Claremont. My parents lived just a couple of street away from where these incidents happened during this time. I would not go around to theirs at night for a long time ....my folks were very concerned about my safety and asked me to avoid doing so at night. I resided in Woodlands and Scarborough during these times, although I lived in many areas of Perth over the years .

 

[Akai]

This is coming up a fair bit (ie: ex involved in tip offs/evidence). But if she had any idea, why/how could she leave a daughter with the person of concern?

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The other thing I always think is this. If you were any person who had any recognition of the Claremont killers and someone (partner, colleague, friend, friend-of-friend) said anything suspicious about the Claremont killings, wouldn't you hightail it to a police station or at least get as far away from that person as possible?


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[Akai]

First time poster but long been having a look see at this forum....I think I can answer this query. The secure taxi rank did not come into existence until after the girls going missing started happening. It was also common for people to go and call a taxi to a location not far from any taxi ranks as often there were long queues at the ranks. For example if you called a taxi to a couple of streets away you effectively managed to jump the queue ...as you had a booked taxi to come to a certain place. I don't see anything odd in SS behaviour, she was probably just trying to get home a bit faster so used that common trick.

I lived in Perth prior to and after this time and yes have connections to Claremont. My parents lived just a couple of street away from where these incidents happened during this time. I would not go around to theirs at night for a long time ....my folks were very concerned about my safety and asked me to avoid doing so at night. I resided in Woodlands and Scarborough during these times, although I lived in many areas of Perth over the years .

Thanks for that.

I have used the taxi rank trick myself when I've been out - wandered up the street and called one or hailed one before it got to the rank. If she was tired I could see her doing that, and it may explain why a taxi turned up to collect her so quickly.

The reason I am not convinced that was the case is because I would have thought there would have been mention of her bypassing the taxi rank, mention of potential witnesses at the taxi rank etc. Which led to me think that either there wasn't one or there was nobody and no taxis at it.

If they installed the taxi rank after the three went missing, it wouldn't have been there for JR. That's what I'm trying to figure out - when was it installed.


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[JWSleuth]

It will be a fair bit longer. I'm guessing that you're referencing Australian Eastern Daylight Saving Time (Sydney, Melbourne).

For anyone overseas, at this time of year Australia has timezone madness.

Victoria, NSW, Tasmania - have daylight saving - AEDT
SA - has daylight saving - half an hour behind AEDT
QLD - no daylight saving (usually on same time as other eastern states) - an hour behind AEDT
NT - no daylight saving (usually consistent with SA) - an hour and a half behind AEDT
WA - no daylight saving - 3 hours behind (usually 2 hours behind)

Daylight saving in Aus runs from sometime in October - April

It's currently 8am on AEDT so still 5am in Perth.


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Just logged in with hope of some answers 😔 forgot about the time difference.... thanks for that.

 

[Akai]

Just logged in with hope of some answers [emoji17] forgot about the time difference.... thanks for that.

Glad it was useful!


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[Ex-perthite]

Thanks for that.

I have used the taxi rank trick myself when I've been out - wandered up the street and called one or hailed one before it got to the rank. If she was tired I could see her doing that, and it may explain why a taxi turned up to collect her so quickly.

The reason I am not convinced that was the case is because I would have thought there would have been mention of her bypassing the taxi rank, mention of potential witnesses at the taxi rank etc. Which led to me think that either there wasn't one or there was nobody and no taxis at it.

If they installed the taxi rank after the three went missing, it wouldn't have been there for JR. That's what I'm trying to figure out - when was it installed.


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I honestly can't remember exactly what date they made that taxi rank a secured one.... I do remember it was directly linked to the girls going missing... but can't remember if it was after the first disappearance the second or the third. I also remember them doing the dna tests on many perth taxi drivers prior to setting up the secured rank. Young women such as myself back then were encouraged to ask for a taxi drivers ID and it was fine to ring back the taxi firms to check etc. The reality is many still didn't, still wandered off to call a taxi to elsewhere or walked in the direction of Stirling HWY in the hope of flagging one down... and some of that 'it won't happen to me' attitude was prevalent, the invulnerability of youth. Perhaps this was also a factor....prior to this the Claremont area wasn't linked with being unsafe or risky ....freo and northbridge would have been considered more risky. Even leederville at that time would have been seen as more risky. Just some of my memory of back then.

 

[Akai]

I honestly can't remember exactly what date they made that taxi rank a secured one.... I do remember it was directly linked to the girls going missing... but can't remember if it was after the first disappearance the second or the third. I also remember them doing the dna tests on many perth taxi drivers prior to setting up the secured rank. Young women such as myself back then were encouraged to ask for a taxi drivers ID and it was fine to ring back the taxi firms to check etc. The reality is many still didn't, still wandered off to call a taxi to elsewhere or walked in the direction of Stirling HWY in the hope of flagging one down... and some of that 'it won't happen to me' attitude was prevalent, the invulnerability of youth. Perhaps this was also a factor....prior to this the Claremont area wasn't linked with being unsafe or risky ....freo and northbridge would have been considered more risky. Even leederville at that time would have been seen as more risky. Just some of my memory of back then.

Thank you very much for all that insight!

I can definitely appreciate why the three women might have done something that, in hindsight, appears unsafe. I am a bit younger than SS, and when I was in my late teens and early 20s, I did exactly the sort of things they might have done. It was late, I wanted to get home, the taxi queue was a mile long, I felt safe.........so I'd walk either to get another one, or even home.

I can imagine that the hassle of checking taxi IDs would have put people off doing it. The other things is that I (like many other young women) had bad experiences with taxi drivers trying to grope me or suggest I pay them in other ways. So sometimes I just didn't want to catch a taxi. With the rumours that it might be a taxi driver, I can see why CG might have avoided catching one.

If the DNA tests came before the secure rank, I am guessing the rank was probably set up at least after JR. So it sounds to me as though the authors of the article are confused - perhaps they've seen there is a taxi rank there now and assumed it was there at the time.


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[Ex-perthite]

Thank you very much for all that insight!

I can definitely appreciate why the three women might have done something that, in hindsight, appears unsafe. I am a bit younger than SS, and when I was in my late teens and early 20s, I did exactly the sort of things they might have done. It was late, I wanted to get home, the taxi queue was a mile long, I felt safe.........so I'd walk either to get another one, or even home.

I can imagine that the hassle of checking taxi IDs would have put people off doing it. The other things is that I (like many other young women) had bad experiences with taxi drivers trying to grope me or suggest I pay them in other ways. So sometimes I just didn't want to catch a taxi. With the rumours that it might be a taxi driver, I can see why CG might have avoided catching one.

If the DNA tests came before the secure rank, I am guessing the rank was probably set up at least after JR. So it sounds to me as though the authors of the article are confused - perhaps they've seen there is a taxi rank there now and assumed it was there at the time.


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You're welcome...I was a bit older than the girls at the time but only by a couple of years ...I was 29 in mid 1996...I turned 30 later that year. I can honestly say by then I didn't hang out around Claremont nightspots ...it was a slightly younger crowd than I and I'd sort of been there done that by then....Like you though I would have done something that would be considered unsafe without thought....many times I walked or got taxis during my late teens early 20's. I also drove by then so was rare for me to be walking or need a taxi as I wouldn't drink if I was driving...as I mentioned though my folks lived a couple of streets away from where this all happened ...they also lived close to Karrakatta I remember the reports of a girl being attacked there. Tbh it was a bit surreal as I knew those areas like the back of my hand and the surrounding suburbs. I think the thing that freaked my folks out most was that I was very similar looking to those girls and around the same age group. It certainly crossed my mind to just how much I looked like those girls. I also remember my older brother knowing one of the girls who was killed by the Birnies, he knew her thru UWA ....so I guess I was somewhat hyper aware of what was out there. I think the Claremont killings kind of opened Perth eyes ....I'll admit I'm following the case as it was something that affected me and a lot of Perth women ...I'd like to see the conclusion so to speak. I guess the thing I'd like most of all is for SS to have a proper burial, I do not believe she is alive nor has been for a long time ....I have always felt so sad for her family that she has not been located ...as yet. I hope they get the chance to lay her to rest at a place of their choice.

 

[Spooks-R-Us]

This is coming up a fair bit (ie: ex involved in tip offs/evidence). But if she had any idea, why/how could she leave a daughter with the person of concern?

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My guess is the daughter was an adult by the time CGE left BRE, so CGE probably couldn't make her daughter leave. And if CGE made a big fuss about herself or her daughter leaving, then I'm guessing they would've been putting themselves in danger.

Also, IMO, BRE, if he is the alleged CSK, there's NO way he'd murder/hurt his own step-daughter, because if something bad happened to VRG (or CGE), then cops would instantly suspect a family member, namely BRE. Then cops could get his DNA and hypothetically match with alleged CSK crimes.

IMO VRG was totally safe.

 

[Innerchild]

Hi All
First time poster but I have been following the Websleuths CSK thread for a while now. Like most of you, I am really looking forward to tomorrow.

I must say I have loved reading all the (what I consider to be) 'whacko' theories people have had over the years. I say this with all due respect as everyone is entitled to their opinion. The theory about '...if you draw a line between Claremont and Wellard and then measure that distance due east you will find x y and z" and the shipping containers made me chuckle...and then the "I wonder what star sign all the girls were? Maybe the CSK is doing a zodiac thing" probably 'took the cake' for me.
snipped

Again, thanks for all adding to this Websleuths thread over the years....it's been great reading it all.

All of the above are just my opinions.

I'm owning my whacko theory. The line going west from Cott (Julie Cutler) to East (Sarah Spiers?) through corner of Bayview Tce and St Q Ave matched three or four other "clues" left on different blogs.

On the exact spot there was an area that had previously been dug, had broken long neck Swan Gold beer bottles just buried underneath surface, pieces of what we thought were black plastic but turned out to be black leaves (from surface but had been buried) and you could stick a wooden stick easily into earth about three foot. Only had a folding camp shovel with us and didn't go further than one foot. Maybe co-incidence?

 

[Innerchild]

Thank you for the article.

I am confused about something in it, and hoping someone who was around in Perth in that period might be able to help.

The second map in that article indicates that JR's friends got their taxi from a rank right near Club Bayview. If that existed, why would SS walk down to the phonebox on Stirling Hwy to call one? Did it not exist the year before? Is the article incorrect about there being a taxi rank?

I suppose in answer to my question as to why SS went to the phone box it could be that none were at the rank at the time. But I'm confused because I'd never heard mention of a taxi rank before.


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I don't remember that being there either at SS or JR's disappearance. I thought there was a taxi rank on Guigeri St on that side of the Conti, when Jane disappeared, but maybe they had to go to the phone box on Stirling Road?

However many things cops have said about what happened with Jane's friends I don't think makes sense and I'll be looking forward to seeing who they have on that witness list.

 

[Akai]

You're welcome...I was a bit older than the girls at the time but only by a couple of years ...I was 29 in mid 1996...I turned 30 later that year. I can honestly say by then I didn't hang out around Claremont nightspots ...it was a slightly younger crowd than I and I'd sort of been there done that by then....Like you though I would have done something that would be considered unsafe without thought....many times I walked or got taxis during my late teens early 20's. I also drove by then so was rare for me to be walking or need a taxi as I wouldn't drink if I was driving...as I mentioned though my folks lived a couple of streets away from where this all happened ...they also lived close to Karrakatta I remember the reports of a girl being attacked there. Tbh it was a bit surreal as I knew those areas like the back of my hand and the surrounding suburbs. I think the thing that freaked my folks out most was that I was very similar looking to those girls and around the same age group. It certainly crossed my mind to just how much I looked like those girls. I also remember my older brother knowing one of the girls who was killed by the Birnies, he knew her thru UWA ....so I guess I was somewhat hyper aware of what was out there. I think the Claremont killings kind of opened Perth eyes ....I'll admit I'm following the case as it was something that affected me and a lot of Perth women ...I'd like to see the conclusion so to speak. I guess the thing I'd like most of all is for SS to have a proper burial, I do not believe she is alive nor has been for a long time ....I have always felt so sad for her family that she has not been located ...as yet. I hope they get the chance to lay her to rest at a place of their choice.

I am 100% with you on what you'd like to see. Whenever I see information on this case I always think of her family. It must be so hard for them to just not know and not be able to say goodbye.

I can see why you have an interest in this and why your parents were so concerned and you became hyper aware. Those are a lot of indirect connections to the Claremont matter and serous criminal matters in WA generally.


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[Spooks-R-Us]

Thank you for the article.

I am confused about something in it, and hoping someone who was around in Perth in that period might be able to help.

The second map in that article indicates that JR's friends got their taxi from a rank right near Club Bayview. If that existed, why would SS walk down to the phonebox on Stirling Hwy to call one? Did it not exist the year before? Is the article incorrect about there being a taxi rank?

I suppose in answer to my question as to why SS went to the phone box it could be that none were at the rank at the time. But I'm confused because I'd never heard mention of a taxi rank before.


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I can't recall the exact locations of the Claremont taxi ranks back then. But I do recall it was useless standing at a taxi rank in Claremont in 90's. There weren't enough taxi's around, so taxis didn't line up for patrons, patrons would line up for taxis. i.e. at taxi ranks you would always see people lining up but NO taxis lining up.

Plus standing at an empty rank and purely waiting without making a telephone call for a taxi was futile. So if you didn't have a brick mobile phone, you were stuffed.

So I'm guessing that's why SS used the public phone box in Stirling Road.

Much later after the abductions, CBV and Conti installed a Swan Taxis direct call phone into their premises that anyone could use to call a taxi without needing coins or money for the phone call.

Also Perth people knew taxi ranks were hopeless, so they would often start their walk home and hope to catch one along a highway by purely waving down the taxi - just like CG was doing.

 

[MissUnderstood]

Is this the one you mean?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natasha_Ryan


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Yes that’s the one, thanks for finding, my mind went blank on names.


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