Found Deceased Australia - Gary Tweddle, 23, Blue Mountains NSW, 16 July 2013 - #3

[Xantara]

The next piece of msm came when Gary was sighted by the Ambulance training helicopter 6 weeks later and the location of where he was found - down the cliff face at Sweet Dreams.

As what happened between that time, nothing has been reported.
Though its hard to say if he was anywhere near Sweet Dreams at 12:20am (presumed time of the phone call to colleagues) if he was seen 5 minutes earlier by the passing motorist at 12:15am on Watkins Road.

Though a 17 minute walk from Watkins Road down Sublime Road takes you almost to the beginning of that track in West Street (even if he did cut through the plot of bush before West Street) and the close vicinity - (see attachment) - it doesn't mean he did this just a matter of Google walking down that way.

Sublime Point was also one of the first serious search areas the Police looked at extensively. I wonder if there was news that he had gone down that way?

Which also reminds me... on the 19th July (2 days after Gary disappeared) when I went to Sublime Point and took the first pics, a search leader was finishing his day when I asked him if there was any news - he said sadly, no. Was Gary not able to be seen from over the cliff face if someone looked?

Haven't yet worked out how to get the name of the person I am quoting to come across yet...
FigTree and others, there has been lots of publicity given to the Sweet Dreams cliff face in the media, but my understanding from reports has always been that Gary was found 'near' a location known as Sweet Dreams, not down that actual cliff itself. I think Sweet Dreams kept being referred to because it is the closest discernible landmark to where Gary was found. But if you look at the pictures of where Gary actually lay and where the police abseiled down to, it's not the stark cliff face that climbers go up and down, but down an bit of escarpment that's got heaps more bush on it. Not been to that specific spot, but just from looking at the photos, I don't know that you could see immediately down from where Gary fell - wouldnt it be too obscured by bush?

 

[Xantara]

Had close family at Gary's UK celebration in Crazies Hill on Friday. There were webcasts from the events in Sydney, and balloons were launched (some with messages for Gary, others with seeds and letters asking the eventual finders to plant them in Gary's memory).

Also need to clear one thing up! Gary was an avid Newcastle United fan (as is his Geordie Dad) - not a Liverpool fan, and I am sure he would find the misunderstanding extremely funny.

http://www.nufcblog.com/2013/07/22/n...lue-mountains/

Bless you mate x
Last edited by AppleSnail; Today at 09:45 PM. Reason: Accuracy
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Thank you, AppleSnail. I'm wondering if these are the balloons, then, that Gary's father has changed his FB profile picture to?

 

[SouthAussie]

Haven't yet worked out how to get the name of the person I am quoting to come across yet...

RSBM

Xantara ... if you go to the post you want to quote, hit the quote button inside that post box in the bottom right-hand corner, it will bring up a reply box with the whole post already in the box (including poster's name).

Just put your cursor underneath the text in the reply box, type your reply and hit Submit Reply and .. voila .. you'll have it.

Hope that makes sense


(And you are correct that Gary was found near Sweet Dreams .. I think it was a teeny bit closer to town where the bushy part of the cliff is .. much harder to see him there, I would think ... and maybe what was intended if someone else was involved)

 

[bearbear]

Respectfully snipped...


No, its not confirmed anywhere what happened to Gary after the call from Watkins Road - and there are 2 times for that call - 12:20am & 1:00am.

The next piece of msm came when Gary was sighted by the Ambulance training helicopter 6 weeks later and the location of where he was found - down the cliff face at Sweet Dreams.

As what happened between that time, nothing has been reported.
Though its hard to say if he was anywhere near Sweet Dreams at 12:20am (presumed time of the phone call to colleagues) if he was seen 5 minutes earlier by the passing motorist at 12:15am on Watkins Road.

Though a 17 minute walk from Watkins Road down Sublime Road takes you almost to the beginning of that track in West Street (even if he did cut through the plot of bush before West Street) and the close vicinity - (see attachment) - it doesn't mean he did this just a matter of Google walking down that way.

Sublime Point was also one of the first serious search areas the Police looked at extensively. I wonder if there was news that he had gone down that way?

Which also reminds me... on the 19th July (2 days after Gary disappeared) when I went to Sublime Point and took the first pics, a search leader was finishing his day when I asked him if there was any news - he said sadly, no. Was Gary not able to be seen from over the cliff face if someone looked?

Sublime Point was also one of the first serious search areas the Police looked at extensively. I wonder if there was news that he had gone down that way?


maybe he went there earlier that day with some of the group so they told searchers he was probably back there?

 

[Xantara]

Sublime Point was also one of the first serious search areas the Police looked at extensively. I wonder if there was news that he had gone down that way?


maybe he went there earlier that day with some of the group so they told searchers he was probably back there?

I remember reading in media reports that police did spend much of their focus on searching in bush along Sublime Point Rd and, yes, I guess that would include the Point too. Who knows, whether anything further in that 17 min phone conversation pointed to that, or whether it was the often cited words of Gary during that call, that he was in bush that was 'near a main road'. Whilst, in the overall scheme of things, Sublime Pt Rd is hardly a main road, but if Gary was originally on watkins and then evidently made his way towards sublime point from there, the whole watkins + sublime pt road stretch, being more or less continuous, may have appeared as a longish and therefore 'main' road to him, as opposed to a cul de sac or a street in the criss-cross of a heavily urban area. JMO

 

[SouthAussie]

After reading about a witness statement from the inquest relating to Katoomba woman Belinda Peisley, and her being "put over a cliff" somewhere in the region, if nothing else it's an indication that there has been an alleged history of dodgy types in the area who have possibly made use of the topography as a cover for sinister activities.

Presumably if a person or persons wanted to dispose of a body (in the context of clifftops), they would select a location in relative close proximity to a road or access track, and somewhere private (maybe even a secluded lookout carpark on a weeknight during the off season).

If drugs are indeed established to be a factor in this case, some kind of overdose scenario could also be a possibility, and perhaps reason for a third party (like a dealer or supplier) to choose to dispose of a body rather than be implicated in the death and face consequences.

I see there's a news report today about the death of a young party goer and a number of hospitalisations from a music festival called Defqon which was held only yesterday (suspected overdoses due to a bad batch of ecstasy- the 23 y/o guy who died went into seizures and later suffered cardiac arrest).

As always, just my opinion.

I’m with you on this HAL9000 – seems that many areas have their dodgy characters - Ivan Milat and Belanglo Forest .. my state with the sleepy little town of Snowtown and the bodies in the barrels .. the girls that have gone missing from Perth nightclub areas.

A NSW coroner has already expressed concern over the unsolved disappearances in the Blue Mountains, and thinks they should be looked at to see if there are connections between the cases.

It is not something that should be overlooked IMO.

Unless Gary was in some kind of fugue state (in which case his colleagues should have been helping him and not letting him out of their sight), it makes no sense (to me) for him to have wandered off the road onto tracks, then through bush and scrub and over a cliff – unless someone was with him and left him in a compromised position, or put him over that cliff.

And I just can’t see that a person who is in a fugue state would be hanging out on Watkins Road, then have the presence of mind to be ringing his colleagues later to say he was lost.

 

[SouthAussie]

<modsnip>
Something that's just occurred to me, do we even know for sure Gary was on a track or is it possible he was just stumbling through the bush, lost and not on any path?
That might seem completely crazy but it could also explain why he couldn't tell anyone where he actually was during the phone call.

Hi Kyja .. Gary's colleagues were apparently telling him to look in letterboxes to see where he was on Watkins Road, so I think he had to have been on a road during that phone call. I guess he could have been on Sublime Point Road, if he thought he had just wandered/been driven further down Watkins Road - he may not have realised how short Watkins Road really is, and thought it was the name of the road leading to the lookout area.

I have always thought that the running/jumping that Gary was apparently doing while on the phone was Gary keeping himself warm in the freezing temperatures, as many athletic people seem to do.

 

[Kyja]

Hi SouthAussie, I agree from the later media articles it sounds as though he was on a road when he spoke to his colleagues, the thing that I find extremely confusing is original media and police reports stated he was lost in the bush and could hear a main road and see a light on a hill. That doesn't sound at all like he's on a road to me. Several weeks later the media reported that his colleagues said he was on a road when they spoke to him and they suggested he look at letter boxes to get a number.
I wonder if he was originally on a road when he called them and for some reason he then left the road and entered the bush.
I'm not sure if its sloppy reporting or the fact the media didn't have much to work with when it came down to the finer details.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...-on-gary-tweddle/story-fni0cx12-1226683984596

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/abrupt-end-to-missing-mans-call-20130722-2qevp.html

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/disappearance-has-community-baffled-20130810-2rovn.html

 

[SouthAussie]

Hi SouthAussie, I agree from the later media articles it sounds as though he was on a road when he spoke to his colleagues, the thing that I find extremely confusing is original media and police reports stated he was lost in the bush and could hear a main road and see a light on a hill. That doesn't sound at all like he's on a road to me. Several weeks later the media reported that his colleagues said he was on a road when they spoke to him and they suggested he look at letter boxes to get a number.
I wonder if he was originally on a road when he called them and for some reason he then left the road and entered the bush.
I'm not sure if its sloppy reporting or the fact the media didn't have much to work with when it came down to the finer details.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...-on-gary-tweddle/story-fni0cx12-1226683984596

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/abrupt-end-to-missing-mans-call-20130722-2qevp.html

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/disappearance-has-community-baffled-20130810-2rovn.html

There was a post from someone (can't find the actual post at the moment - I think it was in Thread Two, though maybe Thread One) who said that they run in the area regularly. They thought that perhaps Gary was on Sublime Point Road during the call as there is apparently an unlit area of the road with bush on both sides that goes up a hill/incline. There is a streetlight at the top of the incline, and the poster thought that perhaps that was the light that Gary saw on a hill.

I think that stuck in my mind as being a distinct possibility of the light on the hill that Gary saw, while Gary was still on a road with letterboxes, and near a main road (could he hear traffic sounds from the Great Western Highway in the quiet of the night?)

For sure, the media (or us) haven't had much to work with ... wish we knew more about the content of that call.

 

[Lexis]

And this one said, to the effect, that he was heading UP a hill, so how did he end up down a hill?
"He said something along the lines of he was lost in the bush and heading up a hill to a light," operation commander Mick Bostock said.http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2013/07/22/17/57/he-s-out-there-waiting-blue-mts-search

 

[Miss_Diana]

Just a question: Do we know for SURE, that his friends actually DID talk to him? Had LE seen the call on his cell or theirs?

TIA

 

[SouthAussie]

Just wanted to provide this link for unsolved disappearances in the Blue Mountains (those that we have been able to find - but we think there may be more that are not referenced anywhere that we can find).

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218598&highlight=kellie+ann+carmichael

 

[Moya Point]

I'm new to this but I've been following it quite closely. In the beginning I went on numerous bush walks looking for Gary. I've also followed this blog for a few weeks. It&#8217;s very informative and great to have people collaborating on this, with their thoughts.

In my opinion it is very strange - why someone would end up off the narrow track behind the houses unless there was a specific reason. As someone mentioned, egress from the &#8216;sweet dreams&#8217; climb has to come out somewhere along the top of the cliff face and lead back to the car park. I&#8217;ve had a look and seen this path, it might also be possible to access it through an empty lot next to other houses, if you wanted to. In my opinion you'd have to go off this narrow track looking for something if you really wanted to go down the slope and into the bush near the edge, especially at night.

My thoughts are these - someone mentioned earlier about GeoCaching and the youtube video that was somewhere in the mountains. This led me to have a look at the Geocaching website in more detail and sure enough there is a 'GeoCache' located near to where I think Gary was found, it&#8217;s called a sublime adventure. The website shows some pictures of this Geocache area and details how to get to it. People have previously found it and logged their find, there are also reports of the terrain. There is a detailed brief from the person that submitted this geocache even detailing a fixed rope, keyhole etc. It also states that GPS is likely to be 'flakey'.

My opinion is that this might have been something to do with why GT was in this particular location? Is it possible that he was on a mission to find this as part of a &#8216;game&#8217;? Would he have been using his phone and GPS to find it within a few meters&#8230;.(although it states GPS is &#8216;flakey&#8217; he might not have known this)? In my opinion it seems he was fairly mentally alert being able to use his phone and being able to sense nearby roads and lights?
From what I gather Geocaching seems quite common up here in the Blue Mountains.
Map

 

[indigo7]

There was a post from someone (can't find the actual post at the moment - I think it was in Thread Two, though maybe Thread One) who said that they run in the area regularly. They thought that perhaps Gary was on Sublime Point Road during the call as there is apparently an unlit area of the road with bush on both sides that goes up a hill/incline. There is a streetlight at the top of the incline, and the poster thought that perhaps that was the light that Gary saw on a hill.

I think that stuck in my mind as being a distinct possibility of the light on the hill that Gary saw, while Gary was still on a road with letterboxes, and near a main road (could he hear traffic sounds from the Great Western Highway in the quiet of the night?)

For sure, the media (or us) haven't had much to work with ... wish we knew more about the content of that call.

Yes...there is a gap in residential homes along Sublime Pt Rd between Willoughby Rd and West St. There is a street light near the turnoff to Willoughby Rd then another one at the top of the hill near West Street. It's only a short walk between the two lights but in the dark it would seem like you were in the middle of no-where if you weren't familiar with the road. Once you hit West St it then resumes being residential all the way along to the carpark at Sublime Pt Lookout. The highway sound is not significant in this area so how Gary deduced he was near a main road may have been from the numerous residential homes he had seen whilst he was walking.

Yesterday when I was out walking I did work out that you can walk through various bushtracks right from Willoughby Rd all the way around to the area Gary was located without having to leave the bush itself. BUT, imo unless you were familiar with the rabbit warren of tracks in that bushland area between Willoughby Rd & West St then I think that it would be very difficult to go from A-B. Some of the tracks are also quite thin and not clear underfoot i.e. tree roots,rocks jutting out,uneven ground etc. I still feel Gary would have met with some form of injury at night travelling without adequate lighting WELL before he got to his final retrieval point. It's hard enough walking some of these tracks in broad daylight let alone at night.
The big question still comes down to WHY Gary kept walking instead of staying put and giving landmarks like he was told to do by his colleagues until they could determine his location. We are still only able to make our assumptions based on the very limited information that has been released regarding that 17 min call.I'm sure there's so much more to this than what has been officially released to the press & the public.

Much of the search in the early days concentrated around the areas of The Fairmont Resort,Leura Golf Club,Sublime Pt Rd,Willoughby Rd,West St & Sublime Pt Lookout. There was intensive ground searches of the bushland and residential homes around these areas as well.There are still so many unanswered questions pertaining to Gary's state of mind,the substances Gary may have been under the influence of, the calls or texts that may have come up on Gary's mobile during the day/night, the reason why Gary was in the shape he was in when he left Silk's Restaurant etc.

Just a terribly sad tragedy without any clear reason.

 

[H A L 9 0 0 0]

My thoughts are these - someone mentioned earlier about GeoCaching....

Welcome to the thread Moya Point.

Interesting idea, but if the geocaching concept was indicated in any way by the work colleagues (via Gary's phonecall or previously stated plans) my feeling is areas around any geocache would have been scoured extremely carefully right from the start.

If it was Gary's own idea to go on a geocache hunt after leaving the hotel, then you'd think he would've mentioned it in his call later when trying to explain his position.

Also, even if it was a personal challenge or a dare for a midnight geocache hunt, would anyone seriously attempt climbing at night, in the cold, with totally inappropriate clothing, no safety gear or grippy shoes suited to climbing? I just can't see it personally.

The only reason I can think of for an attempt at climbing under the conditions described above would be to flee a threat situation- getting out of reach of harm (similar to climbing a tree to evade a wild animal).

Edited to add:- or spontaneously trying to reach something, like if you happened to drop your phone onto a ledge below, or if you randomly chanced upon something where the reward could possibly outweigh the risk (or believed it might not be there if you came back later).

 

[bearbear]

I'm new to this but I've been following it quite closely. In the beginning I went on numerous bush walks looking for Gary. I've also followed this blog for a few weeks. It’s very informative and great to have people collaborating on this, with their thoughts.

In my opinion it is very strange - why someone would end up off the narrow track behind the houses unless there was a specific reason. As someone mentioned, egress from the ‘sweet dreams’ climb has to come out somewhere along the top of the cliff face and lead back to the car park. I’ve had a look and seen this path, it might also be possible to access it through an empty lot next to other houses, if you wanted to. In my opinion you'd have to go off this narrow track looking for something if you really wanted to go down the slope and into the bush near the edge, especially at night.

My thoughts are these - someone mentioned earlier about GeoCaching and the youtube video that was somewhere in the mountains. This led me to have a look at the Geocaching website in more detail and sure enough there is a 'GeoCache' located near to where I think Gary was found, it’s called a sublime adventure. The website shows some pictures of this Geocache area and details how to get to it. People have previously found it and logged their find, there are also reports of the terrain. There is a detailed brief from the person that submitted this geocache even detailing a fixed rope, keyhole etc. It also states that GPS is likely to be 'flakey'.

My opinion is that this might have been something to do with why GT was in this particular location? Is it possible that he was on a mission to find this as part of a ‘game’? Would he have been using his phone and GPS to find it within a few meters….(although it states GPS is ‘flakey’ he might not have known this)? In my opinion it seems he was fairly mentally alert being able to use his phone and being able to sense nearby roads and lights?
From what I gather Geocaching seems quite common up here in the Blue Mountains.
Map

or maybe he had done geocaching there in the past and he was there because the area was familiar to him?

 

[FigTree]

Off Topic slightly - but I wanted to show you an amazing thing that I came across while on one of my searches. I think this was the day I was chasing phone signals at Leura. At the time I took it as a good omen in the search for Gary - there just never seemed a right time to post it.
The pic is a capture from my dvd cam so its not totally clear :facepalm: sorry.

Its not everyday you see one of these roaming around on the streets ... but then again, this is Leura

 

[Lexis]

Off Topic slightly - but I wanted to show you an amazing thing that I came across while on one of my searches. I think this was the day I was chasing phone signals at Leura. At the time I took it as a good omen in the search for Gary - there just never seemed a right time to post it.
The pic is a capture from my dvd cam so its not totally clear :facepalm: sorry.

Its not everyday you see one of these roaming around on the streets ...

Sure isn't, I didn't know people kept them in the Mountains.

Some consider their feathers bad luck, others good luck.

 

[FigTree]

Sure isn't, I didn't know people kept them in the Mountains.

Some consider their feathers bad luck, others good luck.

On this day, the peacock said to me 'all eyes'. The magnificence of this wandering spectacle of brilliant colour gave me that sense that a Miracle is possible. He/she was just on the grass verge pecking and feeding away - like a rainbow in the gutter. No fear or distraction - just this amazing beauty and serenity. He/she wandered across the road and then in a moment, it bobbed down and all the wings and tail burst open and rose into flight over someones fence and wandered down their driveway. I don't know why, but it took my breath away - and it was all good

 

[Lexis]

On this day, the peacock said to me 'all eyes'. The magnificence of this wandering spectacle of brilliant colour gave me that sense that a Miracle is possible. He/she was just on the grass verge pecking and feeding away - like a rainbow in the gutter. No fear or distraction - just this amazing beauty and serenity. He/she wandered across the road and then in a moment, it bobbed down and all the wings and tail burst open and rose into flight over someones fence and wandered down their driveway. I don't know why, but it took my breath away - and it was all good

Stunning, what an experience, and right in the midst of it all!